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Suggestions for WAW - 8/8/2008 4:53:46 PM

GrumpyMel

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Joined: 12/28/2007
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I have a couple quick suggestions for modifications to WAW....

One of the things that is problematic in the scenerio is that Germany and Japan can sit back and hold off attacking indefinately while they outproduce the allies. Although this gives China and Russia lots of time to prepare a defence... not sure how it balances out against the Production disadvantage. It is also somewhat ahistorical as both Germany and Japan were under major time pressure to attack quickly.

Although, this could be handled with House Rules, I'd rather see something in the scenerio itself that put's pressure...on the Axis to attack, but doesn't absolutely force it. In light of that, I have a couple proposals.....

1) I propose that after 1941, the Eastern Blitz card no longer be available to the Germans. Historicaly, it could be argued that a large part of the Soviet Armies readiness problems in '41 were not due to the surprise effect of the attack (although it certainly was a surprise)....but due to it still being in recovery from the Great Purge. It could also be argued, that it would become increasingly difficult for the Germans to conceal thier plans for attacking Russia as time wore on...and forces were built and trained for that purpose.

In game turns, it would force the Germans to make a difficult a choice. They could either attack in '41 with more limited forces but with significant initial tactical advantage due to the unpreparedness of the Red Army..... or they could hold off thier attack, and build up a much more significant force to strike later on, but face a prepared enemy.

2) I propose that after 1941, the U.S. ceases providing supplies to Japan and actualy switches to providing supplies and political points to China each turn, until the start of hostilities. Remember that at the start of the game, Japan is already occupying large portions of coastal China.... and the U.S. is already severely displeased with Japan. In fact, the Pitman Act was passed in '37 and the U.S. impossed the oil embargo on Japan in July of '41 as a response to the occupation of Indochina.

In game terms, this would put added pressure on the Japanese to start the offensive or risk running into supplies problems (as they did historicaly) and a protracted war in China. It would also cause the Axis player to consider the conflicting interests of Germany (who might wish more time to prepare for an attack on Russia, and certainly would want to keep the U.S. out of it for as long as possible once such an attack began) .... and Japan... who would have a desperate need to gain supply sources as quickly as possible once the U.S./Dutch oil stopped flowing.

Just some thoughts.

Mel

Post #: 1

RE: Suggestions for WAW - 8/9/2008 11:19:10 AM

mcv

Posts: 20
Joined: 7/14/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GrumpyMel

One of the things that is problematic in the scenerio is that Germany and Japan can sit back and hold off attacking indefinately while they outproduce the allies. Although this gives China and Russia lots of time to prepare a defence... not sure how it balances out against the Production disadvantage. It is also somewhat ahistorical as both Germany and Japan were under major time pressure to attack quickly.

In the WAW scenario I'm playing (30), Japan has a limited number of turns before it surrenders all its conquests to China and China wins the game. Japan has to fight. I think (but am not sure) that Germany starts at war with Poland, and has the West declare war against it on the next turn. Besides, if he waits too long, he'll need lots of troops at the eastern border to stop Russia from invading.

quote:

1) I propose that after 1941, the Eastern Blitz card no longer be available to the Germans. Historicaly, it could be argued that a large part of the Soviet Armies readiness problems in '41 were not due to the surprise effect of the attack (although it certainly was a surprise)....but due to it still being in recovery from the Great Purge. It could also be argued, that it would become increasingly difficult for the Germans to conceal thier plans for attacking Russia as time wore on...and forces were built and trained for that purpose.

In game turns, it would force the Germans to make a difficult a choice. They could either attack in '41 with more limited forces but with significant initial tactical advantage due to the unpreparedness of the Red Army..... or they could hold off thier attack, and build up a much more significant force to strike later on, but face a prepared enemy.

This could be a really good idea.

quote:

2) I propose that after 1941, the U.S. ceases providing supplies to Japan and actualy switches to providing supplies and political points to China each turn, until the start of hostilities.

Can Japan even postpone hostilities for that long?

(in reply to GrumpyMel)

Post #: 2

RE: Suggestions for WAW - 8/9/2008 12:38:12 PM

Falke

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mcv

Can Japan even postpone hostilities for that long?

Yes since Japan has to declare war on the US within 6 turns after playing the major offensive card. This card can be played manually at any time,or is automatically played when Germany declares war on Russia.Hence it can be mid 42 before USA is in the game

(in reply to mcv)

Post #: 3

RE: Suggestions for WAW - 8/10/2008 3:47:04 AM

tweber

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Joined: 6/27/2007
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I think that the mechanism for bringing the US and Soviet Union into the war is one of the most important aspect in a global war design. I was trying to avoid to much scripting (e.g., it is June '41 so the Germans must invade Russia). I am not sure that a stalling tactic on the part of the Axis will automatically win.

Feel free to make a scenario mod (several have already been made). I am working on a couple of new things so I do not have a ton of time to get to this.

(in reply to Falke)

Post #: 4

RE: Suggestions for WAW - 8/11/2008 1:40:25 AM

explorer2

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Joined: 11/30/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweber

I think that the mechanism for bringing the US and Soviet Union into the war is one of the most important aspect in a global war design.� I was trying to avoid to much scripting (e.g., it is June '41 so the Germans must invade Russia).� I am not sure that a stalling tactic on the part of the Axis will automatically win.�

Tom-
First of all, this is truly one of the best strategic WWII scenarios I've seen. Thanks.

I've now played WaW twice against humans, once as Axis, once as Allies. Both games Germans delayed Soviet invasion until summer 42, and Japan waited until last moment - Jan 43 - to bring in US completely. Both games it was a pretty easy go for Germany, as well as Japan. When I played Axis, I delayed Soviet awakening by conquering all of France except Paris itself. Worked really nicely. In conclusion, I think stalling tactic pretty much ensures a win.

Suggestions:
1. I like Grumpy Mel's suggestion about Eastern Blitz card, not sure of Japan/USA supply.

2. Put in a per turn point scoring system like in the ladder games. That way, when a scenario isn't balanced equally, by trading sides, you can more accurately assess how each player did.

3. Soviets auto awake:
If Germans get a REAL power point ratio of 2:1
If Germans conquer any 2 of Paris, Lille, Brussels, Amsterdam, Marseilles, Copenhagen, or Oslo

4. When any power conquers an urban center or factory, regardless of engineers, they cannot produce units, just supply. (Once Germany gets the production and supply in the south of Soviet Union, which isn't difficult, production is so high it's hard to imagine not winning)

5. Increase cost of building roads (currently it's far too for Germany to build roads to slice through Russia)

6. South Africa keep production level the same throughout (other than optional rule for increased production). Currently it ramps up rather significantly and I don't see any historical rationale for it. If the ramp up is there for game balance, problem is what happens if GE/JA take it?

Finally, in both games, we noticed that the Soviet/German garrison report was erroneous.

I know you're busy now. I would be happy to put some time in to doing the mods to make this work, but I no nothing of modding or programming.
If I could get some help/suggestions/examples I "might" could pull it off.

Comments, suggestions, feedback, help greatly appreciated.

(in reply to tweber)

Post #: 5

RE: Suggestions for WAW - 8/11/2008 4:08:54 AM

tweber

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Joined: 6/27/2007
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I put in a card where the Allies can cede Paris once Lille is captured provided that Britain hasn't made a committment to France. This prevents the option of Germany not occupying Paris though I think that not capturing Paris is somewhat risky. I noticed there is a small bug with the card that I fixed.

If you want to keep score, one challenge would be to try to win with the least ammount of manpower expended or in the shortest amount of turns.

Also, could you be a bit more specific in the garrison report you saw was erroneous.

(in reply to explorer2)

Post #: 6

RE: Suggestions for WAW - 8/12/2008 5:37:11 PM

GrumpyMel

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Joined: 12/28/2007
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Tom, thanks for the response. Hope I didn't come off as whining. It's actualy probably the best designed Global WWII scenerio that I've played in any game yet.... and you deserve major Kudos. Global WWII is a really, really tough design to do. Thanks for allowing folks to do mods of it. I haven't tried that yet, but I think I might have to brush up on it and give it a shot.

It's a great scenerio, but I've yet to see Germany (Both in games I've played as Germany or as the Allies) actualy loose. I think unless the anti-blitz card is payed or the Germans do something incredibly stupid, they've got a major advantage. Also, I'd really love to see something that provokes the sense of urgency that the Axis powers historicaly had.... that they've only got a certain window in which to accomplish thier objectives before momentum starts to slip away from them.

One of the factors playing into that is if they don't do well early on, they can just sit back and out-produce the Allies until they get a sufficient advantage and attack. From my experience, thier Production is generaly high enough that they can use significant forces to fight the West and maintain enough garrison that the USSR can't force war in the East.

It's once Barbarossa happens that the clock starts clicking on them, as the U.S. gears up Production for War.... but they can delay the game pretty much as long as they want....until say they've knocked out Britain... and then they just need to steamroll to Moscow before the U.S. can gear up enough to open a 2nd Front.

Some more ideas for a mod -

I could signifigantly reduce the monthly manpower available to the Axis powers in relation to the Allies. They'd have a significant pool up front, but once that was burned through, they'd be facing a disadvantage. This would force them to think about using thier forces wisely and not burn through them.... and put pressure on them to try to knock out the Allies production before the Manpower differential starts to become a significant factor (i.e. the initial pools are burned through and manpower not production becomes the deciding factor on unit production).

Another thing could be to add events that add supplies to the Russians eact turn after Jan of '42 if they still held Stalingrad, Moscow and Leningrad.

This could simulate Soviet industry gearing up for war, and also help offset the sit-back and outproduce strategy for the Axis.

(in reply to tweber)

Post #: 7

RE: Suggestions for WAW - 9/14/2008 2:32:02 PM

von altair

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Joined: 4/27/2004
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There are some problems in WaW34d. After few testgames with this version, i'll write some of them up. Unfortunately I am too busy atm, to make this fix by myself right now.

- Pearl Harbour needs few more troops to prevent initial Japan landing. It's too easy to take out. Mayby some event could fix this, to give US more production if PH is conquered (which didin't happened in real life).

- Ship construction event bugs. It works good until Japan activates. After activation event spams all Japan ships up and starts bugging. My last game had 1 German BB which never finished out.

- Long transport airplanes was mistake. These things should be taken out totally. They unbalance the game and are almost impossible to defend. Imagine Germany landing paratroopers right to the caucasus when blitzkrieg starts. There is no way Russian can defend against such attack when it is forced to keep its units near German border.

- Ship hulls are too vulnerable. They need more def values.

- Rome is getting attacked initially by Royal Navy when it activates (usually fleet is waiting next to Rome for it). Urban hexes needs better defense values against fleet. In real life there were heavy coastal artillery in every important location.

- Long Artillery "fix" was mistake as well. It doesn't work in the game. It forces people to use regular artillery without any range. These units have to stack up with other units. Along with a large power weight values it makes whole stack vulnerable. It also breaks balance between artillery and airplanes. I'll suggest artillery needs backup recovery from earlier patch (working good in waw33c2)

- Supply system is broken with naval units. Tweber increased naval supply cost usage, but didin't increase supply stock values. This ended up shorter time, ships can be at the sea. This has to be fixed. Ships have to carry enough supply to maintain its operational power more than couple days!

< Message edited by von altair -- 9/14/2008 2:34:25 PM >

_____________________________

"An nescis, mi fili, quantilla prudentia mundus regatur?"

"Do you not know, my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed?"

-Axel Oxenstierna

(in reply to GrumpyMel)

Post #: 8

RE: Suggestions for WAW - 9/17/2008 3:15:13 AM

explorer2

Posts: 465
Joined: 11/30/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: von altair

- Pearl Harbour needs few more troops to prevent initial Japan landing. It's too easy to take out. Mayby some event could fix this, to give US more production if PH is conquered (which didin't happened in real life).

I've never modded before, and events are WAY over my head, but I'll give it a go.
Here's what I'm thinking, tell me if you agree/disagree:
Pearl: double number of rifle units, add 10MG to Pearl, 5MG to Hickam, 40Ri5MG to Hawaii
No idea how to add an event to increase US production.

quote:

- Long transport airplanes was mistake. These things should be taken out totally. They unbalance the game and are almost impossible to defend. Imagine Germany landing paratroopers right to the caucasus when blitzkrieg starts. There is no way Russian can defend against such attack when it is forced to keep its units near German border.

Totally agree. I'm sure I can do this.

quote:

- Ship hulls are too vulnerable. They need more def values.

My proposal: make all hull hit points equal to half of built ship's hit points. What do you think?

quote:

Urban hexes needs better defense values against fleet. In real life there were heavy coastal artillery in every important location.

I'll give a try at creating a new unit called "coastal artillery" It will be immovable, have a pretty high production cost, but pack a whallop against ships, but not anything else, and have weak defense against ground forces.
I don't know how to set it so that it will automatically do counter barrage when attacked. Is that already a universal value for artillery in 33d? does it work against ships?
Coastal artillery still won't fix the problem of ships doing heavy structural damage to ports, and since you can't build a fortress in a city, I see that as a problem I don't know how to solve. Can you increase the structural points of individual cities? (Rome, Amsterdam, Hamburg, Leningrad, Athens, Gibraltar, . . . others??)

quote:

- Long Artillery "fix" was mistake as well. It doesn't work in the game. It forces people to use regular artillery without any range. These units have to stack up with other units. Along with a large power weight values it makes whole stack vulnerable. It also breaks balance between artillery and airplanes. I'll suggest artillery needs backup recovery from earlier patch (working good in waw33c2)

I'm not sure what you envision doing here. Eliminating them? (I see value in being able to have a 2 hex range myself)Lowering their weight? (sounds good). Can you say more about artillery/air balance and how long range artillery affects this? Was long range artillery in 33c2?

quote:

- Supply system is broken with naval units. Tweber increased naval supply cost usage, but didin't increase supply stock values. This ended up shorter time, ships can be at the sea. This has to be fixed. Ships have to carry enough supply to maintain its operational power more than couple days!

Current values in 33d allow ships to be at sea 6 turns. Is that not enough? When they engage in combat, does that suck up their supply more than a normal movement turn? What do you think the ratio of supply able to be carried to supply used per turn should be?

I'd be happy to try to make these adjustments myself. Any ideas greatly appreciated as this is my first shot at modding.

(in reply to von altair)

Post #: 9

RE: Suggestions for WAW - 10/5/2008 9:01:00 PM

mcv

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Replaying WaW (33d this time), I agree with GrumpyMel. It's too easy to postpone your attack. In reality, Germany was in a lot of hurry to conquer as much of Europe as possible before the inevitable war with Russia would start. WaW rewards taking it easy, not conquering Paris right away, and taking care of minor stuff (Balkans, North Africa, etc) before tackling the major powers (France, Russia).

As a fix, I think the Eastern Blitz should either disappear at the end of 1941, or, if it is possible, gradually lose effectiveness as time goes on. Its effect would be more dramatic if you attack early in 1941 (or even 1940!), and the effect would be reduced if you attack later in '41, and almost gone if you wait until 1942. That'd give Germany a good reason to hurry, and attack Russia as soon as possible.

What would also help is if France (and Russia?) receive more reinforcements the longer you wait, or perhaps reorganise their defense to be more effective (along the Belgian border rather than in a Maginot pocket). Maybe Germany's production needs to be reduced, and France's production needs to be increased.
After all, isn't the main reason for Germany's big production that they switched to a full war economy before the others did? Given the chance to switch to a war economy, shouldn't the other nations quickly match Germany's production?

(in reply to explorer2)

Post #: 10

RE: Suggestions for WAW - 10/6/2008 9:54:30 PM

Mehring

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Germany's opening of the war was a muted�affair among the public. There were no cheering crowds as in�August of 1914. So accute was Hitler's fear of rebellion, Germany geared up for total war production only when there was no other choice and long after it was too late to determine the outcome, in 1943-44.

I haven't tried such an ahistorical game as Germany taking her time, but if there really is something to be gained by it, I agree it should be counterweighted. Germany had major economic and political imperatives for rapid resolution of the conflict.

(in reply to mcv)

Post #: 11

RE: Suggestions for WAW - 10/7/2008 1:37:09 AM

explorer2

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Joined: 11/30/2007
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I LOVE mcv's idea of how to modify the Eastern Blitz card. Wish I knew how to do it myself