Historical results

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

Historical results

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [American Civil War] >> Gary Grigsby's War Between the States >> Historical results

Page: [1]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

Historical results - 8/10/2008 12:49:26 AM

wurger54

Posts: 152
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Texas
Status: offline

Just wondering how the group finds the game when compared to historical events. Has anybody achieved the historical taking of New Orleans? What about Nashville and Memphis in '62? How about battle results? I'm finding the battles to be much more bloodier than historical and the loss ration is tilted way over with one side losing 3 times the amount of the other. What are you seeing?

Post #: 1

RE: Historical results - 8/10/2008 2:40:03 AM

hgilmer2

Posts: 16
Joined: 7/14/2008
Status: offline

I have taken Nahsville and Memphis in 62. I agree with the casualties.

(in reply to wurger54)

Post #: 2

RE: Historical results - 8/10/2008 2:59:09 AM

JAMiAM

Posts: 6165
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline

Things depend so much on the relative skill levels of you and your opponents. I've had games where I've cut the Mississippi by the end of the '62 campaign season, and where a stalemate occurs at Memphis until late 1863.

The same thing applies to casualties. Often, what might seem at first blush to be "equal" forces are actually not. If one side has a decided advantage from leaders, supply, and position, you will get horrendously lop-sided results. However, the point usually missed by those bemoaning these loss results are that those forces are definitely NOT equal.

(in reply to hgilmer2)

Post #: 3

RE: Historical results - 8/10/2008 8:10:33 AM

heroldje

Posts: 95
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline

before i fully understood the combat system i got a lot of lopsided results. the more i understood how it works, the more realistic results i tend to get.

(in reply to JAMiAM)

Post #: 4

RE: Historical results - 8/11/2008 1:20:51 PM

Lanconic

Posts: 260
Joined: 7/1/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: wurger54

Just wondering how the group finds the game when compared to historical events. Has anybody achieved the historical taking of New Orleans? What about Nashville and Memphis in '62? How about battle results? I'm finding the battles to be much more bloodier than historical and the loss ration is tilted way over with one side losing 3 times the amount of the other. What are you seeing?

Nothing happened at New Orleans.
The Union simply walked in.

(in reply to wurger54)

Post #: 5

RE: Historical results - 8/11/2008 11:18:33 PM

Curious

Posts: 172
Joined: 8/22/2003
From: Colorado
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: heroldje

before i fully understood the combat system i got a lot of lopsided results.� the more i understood how it works, the more realistic results i tend to get.

Now that you've completely mastered the combat system what do you do differently than you did before? Just curious.

CB

(in reply to heroldje)

Post #: 6

RE: Historical results - 8/12/2008 12:07:37 AM

Treefrog

Posts: 702
Joined: 4/7/2004
Status: offline

well, if anybody has completely mastered the combat system, maybe they can explain why my guys always seem to attack at -3 to -6 and my opponents always seem to be at least +3

_____________________________

"L'audace, l'audace, toujours l'audace."

(in reply to wurger54)

Post #: 7

RE: Historical results - 8/12/2008 2:11:38 AM

heroldje

Posts: 95
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline

i wouldn't say i've mastered it, but I am defnitely able to avoid situations which lead to lopsided losses. Dont attack if your whole army is spotted and theirs isn't. Don't assume that you'll win the battle because you have more men - the generals are much more important. If you have a large army make sure you have a good general who will commit them. Dont attack in unpopulated areas with rough terrain if you outnumber the enemy. Avoid attacking across rivers.

I think the biggest mistake I made in the past was assuming that because i had 50 infantry and he had 30 that I would win.

(in reply to Treefrog)

Post #: 8

RE: Historical results - 8/14/2008 2:27:24 AM

wurger54

Posts: 152
Joined: 7/28/2007
From: Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: heroldje

i wouldn't say i've mastered it, but I am defnitely able to avoid situations which lead to lopsided losses.� Dont attack if your whole army is spotted and theirs isn't.� Don't assume that you'll win the battle because you have more men -�the generals are much more important.� If you have a large army make sure you have a good general who will commit them.� Dont attack in unpopulated areas with rough terrain if you outnumber the enemy.� Avoid attacking across rivers.�

I think the biggest mistake I made in the past was assuming that because i had 50 infantry and he had 30 that I would win.�

I just conceded my first PBEM game in late '63 when the AoP with Meade as AC and Grant as TC were whipped with 6-1 losses, 20k to about 3k. It was the end of a bad run of battles that saw a typical loss ratio of 4-1 losses or worse (for me). In the west the Rebs went over to the offensive and gradually pushed north to the Ohio.

While I don't mind getting whipped, repeated ridiculously unhistorical losses are the fastest way to get a game put on the shelf. Here is a good web site for a quick reference to historical losses: [:Dhttp://americancivilwar.com/cwstats.html

The only really lopsided results except for Cold Harbor were where one side surrendered. Even Fredricksburg is only in the 2.5-1 range.

I base the validity of a system on how it plays in relation to history. So far I'm not too impressed with this one. However, being only our first PBEM of this system, we're giving it another try. The trouble is I'm seeing much the same in the solitaire games I have going.

(in reply to heroldje)

Post #: 9

RE: Historical results - 8/14/2008 2:52:51 AM

JAMiAM

Posts: 6165
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: wurger54

I base the validity of a system on how it plays in relation to history. So far I'm not too impressed with this one. However, being only our first PBEM of this system, we're giving it another try. The trouble is I'm seeing much the same in the solitaire games I have going.

This rather indicates a lack of understanding in the nuances of the combat system, rather than a fault of the system itself. When it comes to combat, you need to focus on DRM's rather than how many forces are in a stack. Sure, sheer numbers can help in deciding who will retreat out of a battle, but the DRM's will decide who gets bloodied and who does not.

Try this thought experiment. Take a pair of White Dice, and a pair of Red Dice. Roll the four dice a number of times, summing the faces of each color. Add three to the total of the Red dice, and leave the sum of the White dice unmodified. See which color has the highest modified total. Play this game until the Reds have lost 10 times, or the Whites have lost 20 times. When either side reaches these limits, then stop and record the "Winner" of the "Battle". Record how many times the Reds win a battle, and how many times the Whites win.

When you understand why twice as many whites get defeated by an inferior number of reds, then get back to me.

In the meantime...wax on...wax off...

< Message edited by JAMiAM -- 8/14/2008 7:52:39 PM >

(in reply to wurger54)

Post #: 10

RE: Historical results - 8/14/2008 3:27:29 AM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: wurger54
I just conceded my first PBEM game in late '63 when the AoP with Meade as AC and Grant as TC were whipped with 6-1 losses, 20k to about 3k. It was the end of a bad run of battles that saw a typical loss ratio of 4-1 losses or worse (for me).

No offense intended, but this can really only happen if you are making some mistakes. You don't get 4-1 or 6-1 losses without some fairly serious modifiers stacking up on one side or the other. That's the kind of thing you'd normally see in the game if out of supply, attacking Level 2 fortifications, or Level 1 fortifications + entrenchments across a river, or without any scouting at all and fortifications, or with terrible generals against outstanding ones, etc.

Note that Meade does have a -1 Army Mod, so he's effectively a 2-2 when commanding an Army until he gets 3 Major Victories and gets rid of the Army Mod. If you're facing off against Lee, he's the equivalent of McClellan, but with an upside. Grant should really be your AC rather than your TC for best results. Sheridan or Hancock also make for better ACs than Meade, even with the Army Mod.

If you were trying for sake of simulation to go with the historical commanders as much as possible, you're really looking at something in game terms more like Grant as AC, Meade as his most senior Corps Commander with very high command or as a second AC that can operate independently and Halleck as TC.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to wurger54)

Post #: 11

RE: Historical results - 8/14/2008 5:06:22 AM

JAMiAM

Posts: 6165
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline

Another screenshot montage in the vein of "a picture is worth a thousand words".

Attachment (1)

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 12

RE: Historical results - 8/14/2008 7:33:27 PM

John Neal

Posts: 116
Joined: 8/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: wurger54
... The trouble is I'm seeing much the same in the solitaire games I have going.

It's not a simple game to master. I'm getting better. Solitaire I got a decisive against the computer in Oct '64 at normal level with semi-random leaders (and FOW of course).

My current game is at challenger level with the historical leaders and corps commanders. I've got the computer's number now, so am trapping his units with regularity. The garrison requirements at challenger level is a real drag, though.