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Interesting comment on why we play this game

 
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Interesting comment on why we play this game - 4/8/2002 10:27:18 PM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		Watched a current video yesterday... "The Last Castle" (highly recommend it to viewers).

But one aspect of the film made me think. And I have to admit it made me a bit uneasy.

The prison warden has this nice collection of war artifacts (like we all do I suspect). He gets a new prisoner in. Its a famous general. He wanted him to sign a book....right up till he over hears the general make a remark to a guard that was with him while the warden was out of the room.

Essentially....no veteran (by vet I mean a man that has seen war's ugly face), would really indulge what we ourselves often casually indulge.

I must say I sleep better knowing I have never heard the screams of my dying buddies. I haven't got the smell of the dead haunting me either. I have not experienced war's ugly side. It's why I cry so much on rememberance day. I thank god some one else went through that hell for me.

So what I am saying here is this. Just what does everyone here think of our interest in war? How do you personally justify your own interest? I myself have no easy answers.

I do get annoyed at a local friend though, that attempts to tell me its ok to kill people in a "non historical" game because they are not "real people". But that I am sick for enjoying playing Steel Panthers, because thats real people I am simulating.
Personally I think he is a great deal more dangerous than me. He has made death just a game, where at least I am acutely aware of the suffering that went into the event depicted.

But do either me or my friend really have something wrong with us? That's the question that means something to me.

Please guys, only seriously thought out comments here.

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.
Post #: 1
- 4/8/2002 10:46:24 PM   
tracer


Posts: 1865
Joined: 11/22/2000
From: New Smyrna Beach, FL USA
Status: offline 		I think of SPWAW as a form of chess: moving certain 'pieces' to strategic positions. When a unit gets taken out I see it as a piece removed from the board. I think (hope) no one here envisions actual human suffering while playing.

I had 3 uncles fight in the war (my dad was only 8 at the time) and all were wounded. I listened to enough of their stories to know it wasn't a game.

_____________________________

Jim NSB

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
Post #: 2
A very good question - 4/8/2002 11:07:47 PM   
Belisarius


Posts: 4041
Joined: 5/26/2001
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: offline 		...speaking as a citizen of a nation that hasn't experienced the horrors of war first-hand in almost 200 years...

I'm generally interested in organisation theories (and management), as well in technical matters. What's interesting (if that's the word to use) about war to me, is how all small parts make up the sum. And by parts I mean units - from armies down to the indivdual soldier. All these parts strive, together yet alone, to achieve a common goal - to beat the enemy. The interaction between units, intentional and unintentional is fascinating. As for the technical part - war brings out the most extreme machinery there is. This in combination with the "mechanics" of the military organisation, to make the best things there are (men and machines), also intrigues me.

It all comes down to this: Why did one side win, and one side lose(sic!)?

Playing SP:WAW makes me understand more, as so much is taken into consideration to make it all as accurate as can be.

_____________________________


Got StuG?

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
Post #: 3
- 4/8/2002 11:17:10 PM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		Les, I refer you to a thread I started a while back on this very subject: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=13578

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
Post #: 4
Les - 4/8/2002 11:40:06 PM   
Gary Tatro

 

Posts: 1213
Joined: 2/1/2002
From: MA, US
Status: offline 		Struggle & Competition is basic human nature. There are about five basic needs (food, shelter, companionship, love, and fulfilment) for humans and the one that is most previlent and the most difficult to achieve is fulfilment. Food and shelter are easily obtained by most. Love and companionship can be obtained from pets. Fulfilment on the otherhand is something that can only be obtained by struggle and competition. Here is where people in general tend to diversify. Some seek fulfilment through building a buisness, others develop their career, some with sports, others persue hobbies or games. I have noticed in my short life that people tend to focus their time and energies in the area that they find that they are good at and have a natural inclination or ability in. While holding the other areas in contempt or dismiss it as unimportant. This I feel this is natural as it allows humans in general to rationalize why doing what they have done is ok.

With that said, you, like myself find that you are good at computer war games and find fulfilment in the strugle and competition of playing them. This is speculation but I believe it is sound reasoning on my part.

As far as do you and your friend have something wrong with you, well if you play SPWAW to the point where you neglect your friends and loved ones you should consider that question stongly. But otherwise enjoy your gaming experience.

_____________________________

"Are you going to do something or just stand there and bleed"

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
Post #: 5
- 4/9/2002 12:01:24 AM   
Larry Holt

 

Posts: 1969
Joined: 3/31/2000
From: Atlanta, GA 30068
Status: offline 		The US has a long tradition of citizen soldiers. The more citizens know about war, the better informed they are of it, the better they can exercise their citizenship duties as to controlling the government that makes war.

_____________________________

Never take counsel of your fears.

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
Post #: 6
Re: Interesting comment on why we play this game - 4/9/2002 12:45:26 AM   
Frank W.

 

Posts: 1958
Joined: 10/18/2001
From: Siegen + Essen / W. Germany
Status: offline 		Hello Sir,

i feel very much the same way!!!

i was always interested in war.

war on sea,land ,air

why this interest i must ask
myself ???


war is bad and evil
(in most cases!!)

but in my case it´s more
the technical and strategic
sides of war,i´m interested in
not killing....

last month i had a car car accident
where a woman was hurt badly
by my car. after the shock i was thinking
of the millions of victims of war.
even more badly injured than that
woman or killed.

do you think it´s a question of personal
morale playing such games???

it´s no easy question......

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
Post #: 7
- 4/9/2002 1:21:33 AM   
Goblin


Posts: 5547
Joined: 3/29/2002
From: Erie,Pa. USA
Status: offline 		Les the Sarge 9-1,

Wow, you sure can make a person think! I agree with several of the guys when they say that the challange of the game, the competition, and the exitement are what we play for.

Is there something more than that? I think yes. World War II touched every American life at the time, and we all have someone that we know that was [I]there[/I] . For me it was my grandfather and his brother fighting the Japanese in the Pacific. Or my good friend's grandfather who flew bomber's over Europe, or my wife's grandfather who flew there also, or my coworker who was a boy in Italy at the time, or my.... You see?

Unlike tracer (and I am NOT putting you down, tracer), when I am putting units into a hot zone during a game, I think, Lord I had better pull them outta there! Not because I will lose them, or because they are 'men'. There is just something that makes me do it.

Tom Hanks said "They did nothing less than save the world" about our soldiers in the war. They did! But any soldier that fought for something he [I]believed[/I] in, that faced the things you described, was more of a man than I think I could have been. This applies to any conflict throughout history. "A spear in the gut? Not for me, thanks. A firing line at fifty yards against the Rebs? Count me out. Jump out of this airplane, in the dark, and find the Enemy? Lock me in the stockade. Make my way across THAT beach, through whats left of my comrades, to get CLOSER to that Machinegun? No effing way!"

The guys that did it say they did what they had to do. Could I have?

Goblin

PS- This is one of the best questions I've seen in a thread, and I've rated it 5 stars.

_____________________________

http://www.spwaw.com/phpBB2/index.php

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
Post #: 8
- 4/9/2002 1:41:35 AM   
Supervisor

 

Posts: 5166
Joined: 3/2/2004
Status: offline 		It's a thinking persons game such as already mentioned chess. Because many of the battles are attempted to depict historical battles as best as possible. We as the battlefield general get to try our hand as a micro-manager to see where others have failed. Unlike other games were you rush in with a full force and try to destroy every thing in your way, you have to carefully plot your entrance and sometimes exit if you plan on being around for the next battle. One other reason it's free and Matrix's dedication and help including the gamers forums are second to none. Just an unbiased opinion.:) :D ;)

_____________________________


(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
Post #: 9
Why We Play - 4/9/2002 2:27:32 AM   
John David


Posts: 373
Joined: 3/21/2002
From: Montreal, Quebec
Status: offline 		Sarge,

As a fellow Canadian, I too shed some tears every November 11th! I always make sure to wear the poppy flower. Ever since I was a young boy (I'm 43 now), I have always respected and have been in awe of the veterans of all the wars this planet has had to suffer through.

In my early 20's, I went to school in Ft. Lauderdale Florida. I met a guy who became a very close friend of mine over the years; in fact, he was like an older brother. He was in the USN reserves.
He served in Vietnam. I went with him a number of times when he went to the reserves for weekend duty. I was able to meet a number of Vietnam vets. All I can say without going into a long dissertation is that as much as I respected soldiers before I met these guys, I had an even higher regard for them afterward.
This was for men who fought in a war that was the most divisive and controversial war in its country's history. These guys, upon coming home, for a large part, were treated like sh*t!

To this day, I wear two dog tags around my neck that are blank. They contain no markings on them. I wear them for the almost 60,00 men who were killed, and for the many, many wounded as well.

The men who fought in WW2, well they are and should be regarded as the greatest generation in our history. The thought of what the world would be like if they had failed numbs me to the core!

Having said all this, what makes me want to "play" war? Like others who have answered, I love the strategy and the challenge. I also know that it is not real.

I will be brutally honest here, I'm not sure if I could have been a soldier. The discipline and the ability to getting through bootcamp, where the individual is discarded to mold a person into a soldier, is something I don't think I could handle.

Worse, I too could not see my buddies getting killed and wounded. It would simply tear me apart inside. That, along with all the other horrors of war, is something that makes me appreciate what these men did. I thank my lucky stars all the time that my generation was not called into battle!

To all who served, my respect and admiration, even with what I tried to express here, can never be fully described by me. THANK YOU ALL!

In closing, may I quote the saying that shows up as my "motto" at the end of all my posts. It describes allot of what I feel.

The Only Thing Good About War, Is It's Ending!

John

_____________________________

The only thing good about war, is it's ending!


(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
Post #: 10
- 4/9/2002 2:54:44 AM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		Not being an american perhaps my views come off as odd sounding....

But I have read the books seen the films watched the documentaries. I lived my youth through those horrible years for the USA, but I did it safely in Canada.

I recall vivid scenes of the protests.
Sure the protests might have had valid arguments, but my psyche has been forever scarred by the treatment the poor schmuck received when he came home from his tropical hell.

To this day I can only respond with a knee jerk violently anti social attitude to the "peace" crowd. To spit on ones fellow citizens for the crime of being sent to a foreign conflict that they never chose has forever made me intolerant of that portion of society.

Maybe they were poorly informed perhaps they were actually that way intentionally. But the phrase "Give Peace a Chance" as a phrase usually gets my hackles up.
Its the rallying cry of people who will not defend their freedom.
Its the rallying cry of people that have no capacity to understand the people that secured that same freedom.
They are a blight on society.

Once a soldier always a soldier.
Even today, while I have not worn a uniform for my country for more than 20 years, I refuse to be labelled a civilian. The operation is not reversable (thank god). I am proud I put that uniform on and signed on the dotted line as a person willing to say yes my freedom is worth ANY cost. I am just fortunate I never had to pass the test.

Best way to get killed around me though...hit a woman, or spit on a soldier.
And yes, if you burn a US flag beside me, I will hurt you almost as badly as if you burned my flag (might not be in love with the US, but your flag has appeared in numerous past heroic deeds).

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
Post #: 11
- 4/9/2002 2:59:56 AM   
Paul Wykes

 

Posts: 267
Joined: 3/4/2001
From: UK
Status: offline 		This is a question I have often asked myself. Having been interested in conflict and history as a whole since I was very young, I have consistantly battled with myself regarding this matter.

It became a family joke that i cried when the germans "always lost" when i was watching the hollywood war films. i always felt that there was good and bad on both sides, i have since learnt that this is true.

I can remember watching the Falklands conflict at the age of 9 and being mortified at the horror that i was seeing on the TV. (The first images of HMS sheffield being hit will always be with me).

I can also remember having nightmares about nuclear war during the mid/late eighties.

Throughout this time I played a variety of computer wargames, (and other computer games for that matter) and I found myself questioning whether I should be playing these games, even thinking that these games were fuelling my anxieties.

As i grew up i began to feel that having these anxieties has actually helped me appreciate that i`m not just "playing a game" and that people do get hurt, both emotionally and physically. It was just that i was aware at an earlier age.

Anyway, I concluded, that playing these "games" helped me understand the pain,horror and terror that people went through, and go through, to allow me to have the freedom i have today.

Paul Wykes

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
Post #: 12
- 4/9/2002 4:09:54 AM   
Frank W.

 

Posts: 1958
Joined: 10/18/2001
From: Siegen + Essen / W. Germany
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Paul Wykes
[B]
Anyway, I concluded, that playing these "games" helped me understand the pain,horror and terror that people went through, and go through, to allow me to have the freedom i have today.

Paul Wykes [/B][/QUOTE]

immagine 10 ten men with 8 G3 rifles and 2 MG3 (in fact a only slighly improved WW2 MG42) machineguns,put them in foxholes and give them enough "real" ammo. not that training ammo.....and then let them shoot all rounds they have.
it was night and we had some "leuchtspur" (in english??)...it was great firework,but after that and immgine we were shooting at real soldiers, i must say i had a very ill feeling in my stomach.
must be cut to pieces everyone which would try to assault our
position without heavy support. it was a exercise with my german airforce reserve unit. only training,but the first time i was shocked what 10 men could do with automatic weapon and enough supply of ammo. dring my active time we never had shootings in this way with automatic fire in night time in real terrain. only shooting ranges with single fire, that was a hole other story...


not just playing games helped to understand the pain,horror and terror, sometimes reality..........

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
Post #: 13
- 4/9/2002 5:15:08 AM   
Capt. Pixel

 

Posts: 1219
Joined: 10/15/2001
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		I too have struggled with this issue of fascination of wargames.

Earlier versions of this game used to message that units were 'killed'. After hours and hours of watching those numbers rack up, I began to realize that I was killing more 'pixelpeople' than real soldiers actually lost in the entire WWII conflict. Several times I shelved the game because it was making me ill.

Now they're mere 'Casualties'. And you know, that kinda helped me.

Laquering over the issue as being similar to chess or other mind challenging games, while accurate, doesn't really address the issue of deliberately bringing violence into our lives. Not just in this game but in other violent video/PC games that are available and sell in large numbers.

What is the underlying psychosis that drives us to persue these pastimes as 'entertainment'?

My personal excuse for this behavior is I'm an engineer (so most of you can figure out THAT kind of personality). I like to tinker with things. I probably spend as many hours fooling around with different weapons systems in the game engine as I do actually playing scenarios or PBEM.

So when I fly 40 aircraft through a wall of flak to determine who's got the best AAA - it's a pure simulation - just drones. And I regard it much as I would if I flew my flight simulator into the ground. "Oh well, pop in another quarter".

But the battles are different - somehow those little icons come to represent (represent, mine you) real people, with real lives who really want to go home. So I do my best. I do everything I can to bring my 'pixelboys' home in one piece. Every pawn is important.

But, someone once said "If you want to make an omelet - You've got to break a few eggs".

:(

_____________________________

"Always mystify, mislead, and surprise the enemy, if possible. "
- Stonewall Jackson

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Post #: 14
- 4/9/2002 7:21:44 AM   
AlvinS

 

Posts: 665
Joined: 12/2/2000
From: O'Fallon, Missouri
Status: offline 		Greetings All

This is a very good thread that has no easy answers. Like most things in life, this game can be both good and bad depending on the person playing it.

War is horrible for all involved and can be a difficult subject to discuss. To say one is bad because of an interest in wargames would suggest that the reason that we play them is for the thrill of killing.

Most people that I have met in the wargaming community play for many reasons. Some are interested in military hardware while others may be interested only in the historical aspects of the game. There are so many ways to enjoy this hobby.

For me, I enjoy learning about the battles fought and wonder what it might have been like for the people involved. Like many, I ask myself if I would have been able to endure the pure hell that a soldier goes through in battle. Victory in a game to me is achieving as many objectives as possible with the minimum of loss.

The fact that this game requires a lot of thinking and effort to be good at causes us to learn more about the battles we are fighting. I buy many books just to learn more about the battles that I fight in this and other games. Although we cannot repay the soldiers that gave their all for their countries we can honor them by learning more about their struggles and hardship in battle. May we never forget.

My freedom has been paid for by the blood of many soldiers from many nations. May God bless them all.

AlvinS

_____________________________

"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." ---Mark Twain

Naval Warfare Simulations

AlvinS

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
Post #: 15
- 4/9/2002 8:24:10 AM   
AJH

 

Posts: 22
Joined: 12/13/2000
From: boston, MA
Status: offline 		gmenfan,
couldn't agree more. I remember the first time I saw an Avalon Hill add, saying something to the effect of "now you can change history.." For those interested in history, for whatever reason, these games give one a chance to 'Walter Mitty' through historical situations. Easy enough to seduce a kid who loved positioning plastic soldiers in imaginary battles outside in the yard.

I also agree with the chess analogy, quite fitting. These games, for me at least, are a method of relaxation similar to chess.

The wargaming genre has often been suspect in the eyes of some for, among other things, insensitivity and Nazi worship. I can remember SPI canceling a game based around a Nazi invasion of the US because many fans thought this was going too far. This view of the genre still remains, and will continue, despite the more vivid violence prevalent in other types of games, such as first-person shooters.

In my experience, most thoughtful folks realize that simulation gaming is just that, a simulation.

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
Post #: 16
Games - 4/9/2002 9:20:05 AM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		I dropped out of highschool in 73 and enlisted in the Marines.
I had always wanted to be a soldier. I don't know how many of you remember 1973. I wore my winter green uniform home on leave before being sent to Okinawa. It was almost a humiliating experience untill while walking down the side walk a one armed man following behind me (making me very nervous)
called to me "Where you going Jarhead? , then he asked if I was a PI or Hollywood Marine?"
(Marines who go to bootcamp at Parris Island refer to those who go through San Diego as Hollywood Marines)
He was a bartender at a place called simply the Pub.
I was underage (17) but he brought me inside and gave me a draft beer. The wall behind the bar had a large red Marine Corps flag and plagues and pictures. He told me had done 12 years in the Corps before losing his arm in Nam. Said he did not really mind the loss of the limb but he had not recovered from being discharged from the Corps and being separated from all his long time friends. He asked if I would stay for a while just so he could talk Marine with someone who (even a boot) would know what he was talking about.
I did 4 years in the Corps becoming a Sgt. my last year.
(playing my very first board war-game while stationed at Camp Lejeune SPI's War in Europe.
When I got out in 77 I wandered around for 4 years before missing it so much I re-enlisted. (I tried sooner but I had broken my ankle playing baseball in 78 and had to wait for the screw to be removed and the bone to fill in the space)
I went to a Marine recruiting office but the recruiter was never there. Just a sign saying back in 30 minutes. An old Navy chief always invited me into his office gave me a cup of coffee and talked "while I waited" Finally after a half dozen such vists I joined the Navy. (the chief then told me the Marine office had moved 8 months before). So I had to go to Navy boot camp (I had been out 2-3 weeks to long). I did 10 years on 2 different ships and a 2 year tour at the Philly Ship Yard.
To prevent this from becoming "War and Peace" I guess I should just get to my point. I have been out now for almost 10 years. I still have dreams about both the Navy and Marines. I miss my buddies. I joined the VFW trying to recapture the feeling I got from hanging out in the enlisted club. As I got older and rose in rank in the military I never soured on the young folks who came and went. I was always very proud of the performance of my 18-20 year olds. VFW's nowadays are mostly full of females and men who have never served (let alone fought in a forgeign war) and just want a place to sing Keroke (Lord help me) So I don't go there very often any more.
I grow attached to my units in long or mega campaigns.
I rename all my leaders after buddies from the service a lot of whom are now gone on extended recon into the undiscovered country. I like my war-games even with great sound effects I don't wake up during the night because a MG-42 keeps replaying in my head. I like my night time visits from people I can't talk to during the day. Now at 46 I still feel like I always wanted to be a soldier. But not to fight. I just cannot explain the difference between civilian friends and the ones who were with me in Beirut or sailing around the Gulf in 91. Spend a few years haze gray and underway and you will have met people you never forget.
I like the Matrix forums in general for much the same reason. The young people who visit here tend to be polite and amusing and the old time grognards are more like me then the majority of people I encounter in RL. (have you ever tried to explain a war-game to a non-grognard? Like explaining snow to an Arab). The Matrix forums are my new enlisted club. War-games are not always about war.
On the surface of course it appears so. But they are really just learning tools. They are true games meant for enjoyment and to pass the time.

_____________________________






I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
Post #: 17
- 4/9/2002 9:29:32 AM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		One thing that I havent seen said yet

The people I knew in the service were guys that thought about the unit the "other" guy was important.

But with civilians its all about "me". Its not about "us" or the company, its just what's in it for me.

"My" wages, "My" seniority, "My" hours.

I have long lost touch with the people I knew in the service, but friends in uniform are a world apart from "just friends".

"Just friends" will buy you a beer, but will they really do anything for you when it gets ugly.

I pity civilians, I really do. Most haven't got a clue what its like to have "real" buddies.

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
Post #: 18
- 4/9/2002 9:58:46 AM   
troopie

 

Posts: 996
Joined: 4/8/2000
From: Directly above the centre of the Earth.
Status: offline 		I once explained that I do this to, in a small way, to honour my father, my uncle and my old comrades. But it's also a way, to get back the excitement of the bush. I don't really want to go back, of course. My attempt to volunteer after 11 Sept was a patriotic gesture and I in a way, (and my wife and son definitely) are glad the Army said we were too old.

I do not cheer the deaths of enemies, even in a wargame. I once told my son, when he asked are those the 'bad' guys, "There are no bad guys. Those are just poor buggers doing their service the same time we are." And I try to minimise my own casualties. If I can keep losses to one or two men, or none at all, I am happier than when I have all the V hexes with heavier losses. I have a flip statement for my use of preparatory bombardment, harassing barrages, and air strikes. "Ammunition is expensive, but men are more so.

My apologies for rambling on and on.

troopie

_____________________________

Pamwe Chete

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Post #: 19
- 4/9/2002 9:59:03 AM   
Goblin


Posts: 5547
Joined: 3/29/2002
From: Erie,Pa. USA
Status: offline 		Don't pity us, or at least not all of us, Sarge. I have two good friends that are like brothers to me, one of twenty years, and one of eleven. Whatever I can give them, be it money, a shoulder, or blood, its theirs. And I know that comes right back.

I would again like to compliment you on a thread that makes you think, and feel.

Goblin

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Post #: 20
What a provoking Topic - 4/9/2002 10:29:13 AM   
Phil

 

Posts: 64
Joined: 12/12/2000
From: New Iberia, LA, USA
Status: offline 		I have always had a fasination with "war". As a little boy I would play for hours with my "little people" (My grandmothers name for my hundreds of plastic armymen). Military movies of any kind where always my favorite.
After I served 6 years in a National Guard Mechanized Infantry Unit, I realized a soldiers life was much different than any movie or boyhood fanatsy I had. Still, I have this desire to know how things where done.
True, computer wargames could never touch the actual horrors of war. What appeals to me are wargames ability to simulate the mechanics of battle. Taking the assets at disposal, evaluating its strengths and weaknesses, reconizing the multitude of variables present and acheiving a goal. One poster described SPWAW as a "Chess Game". Another noted it was a "Thinking Man's" Game. Nothing could be truer.
I know several "Computer Gamers". When I try to describe Steel Panthers to them I get just blank looks. I actually had one tell me they could never play it because it was just too realistic. But that is what appeals to me, the realism. In this game, you just can't go in, guns blazing from the hip and take out dozens of enemies with vapor grenades or plasma pistols. You can't type in a cheat code and suddenly be endowed with super power. (Like it or not, fellow SPWAW-ers, we are a minority).
So I guess I said all that to say that the reason I enjoy these types of wargames is the Historical aspects, strategy envolved, and realism.

_____________________________

Phil

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
Post #: 21
- 4/9/2002 5:29:31 PM   
kurtbj

 

Posts: 72
Joined: 5/15/2001
From: UK
Status: offline 		hmmm, hope it doesn't sound too flippant but I've never had any negative thoughts about playing wargames. To me its just a game recreating hisory. My dad taught me to play Chess when I was 4 and then after a couple of years I moved to wargames and any other strategy game I could lay my hand on. To me its simply a challenge to play the game.

I've never had any kind of guilt playing the games. My Mother is German and my Father English, my English grandfather was a merchant navy captain and sailed the atlantic convoys. My German relatives served in the Wehrmacht and the SS. I heard their stories when I was a child and saw how well the two families got on with each other, there was no ill feeling at all.

I understand the hell they went through and realise the real war is no game but then again I realise that the game is not real war.

_____________________________

'Great Sage Equal of Heaven'

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
Post #: 22
- 4/9/2002 8:50:40 PM   
campekenobi

 

Posts: 93
Joined: 1/10/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		Here's my two cents, and really, only two cents:

I agree with the chess-playing theory (I love chess & strategy), and the other factor is the whole 'boys play with guns' phenomenon. Do children like to play guns because they want to see blood & carnage or satisfy some lethal political agenda? No.

There's some fascination with firepower and explosions that stimulates the senses, but mostly in the realm of FANTASY, versus reality. So when I play Panthers & other war games, I'm just acting out my childhood fantasies of 'playing war', keeping the reality out of the picture, and letting the fantasy stimulate my enjoyment.

One other point I'd like to make is think about the people who watch those medical life-drama shows (personally I hate them). Are they wishing for an accident, or do they love seeing people die? No, but they either have a subconscious fascination/curiosity with death (as 99% of the population does - just look at rubber-necking on highway accidents), or they merely enjoy the ESCAPE from their reality only to be relieved that they are NOT in that situation. I like playing the D-day scenario in first-person shooter games... would I want to be there? Not for a second, of course, but there's a thrill knowing that I can always 'restart' or 'respawn' and life continues.

That's my take.

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
Post #: 23
- 4/9/2002 10:51:12 PM   
Irish

 

Posts: 6
Joined: 3/22/2002
From: Oregon
Status: offline 		I would like to add that this a good way to study war and the men who fought. I have a brother who was in Vietnam and my dad was in WWII. Neither one of them have ever talked much about it. (I don't blame them) But having not experienced war first hand, I personally have a desire to understand the odds that the men faced and the sacrifices that were made by the leaders and the men. War is a horrible thing. But at the same time there are things that are worth fighting for. I think of wargaming as a way to give a type of respect for the men who fought. While no wargame can ever show the horrors of war, it can show you the difficult situations our fathers faced and had to overcome. They were great and brave men, all of them.

Thanks,
Irish

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
Post #: 24
- 4/9/2002 11:13:45 PM   
martinmb

 

Posts: 29
Joined: 4/3/2002
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Status: offline 		This is one if not the best thread I have ever read! I think all of us have our own stories and thoughts as to how and why we wargame. For me it was a way of understanding what both of my grandfathers and their friends went through. I am glad that it was not me who had to experience what they went through. As that young child I heard those stories and experiences. I did not fully understand the concept of what was being said until I started to expand into this hobby. When I did I met with strong resistance from my parents. They thought, like most everyone, that I was some sort of a warmonger or psycho killer. The issue was finally put to rest when my parents tried to have one of my uncles, really one of my grandfathers friends I say uncle out of respect, to convince me that war was wrong. Which I think it is. However their plan backfired. This particular uncle was in a Japanese POW camp for over 4 years. After he had talked to me and I showed him some of the games that I was playing all he said to my parents was "The kid is learning history and if he doesn't your grandchildren will go through what we went through. In simple words; If man does not learn from his mistakes then he is destined to repeat them."
I have since grown to understand what my uncle meant that day, and although I have never been in the armed forces of any country. I am truly thankful that those men and women are.
Is it morally ok to make or play a game that appears to downplay the fact that real men died? I do not have the right to answer that question. The only people or person who does is the ones who were there, imho, and I received that permission from my uncle.

Thank you

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
Post #: 25
- 4/10/2002 1:17:57 AM   
Capt. Pixel

 

Posts: 1219
Joined: 10/15/2001
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		My wife - reading this thread over my shoulder - made the following comment:

"I sure don't mind [I]watching[/I] a woman on TV give birth, but..."

This was followed by "Get away from me with that thing!!"
;)

_____________________________

"Always mystify, mislead, and surprise the enemy, if possible. "
- Stonewall Jackson

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
Post #: 26
- 4/10/2002 2:49:09 AM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		Wasn't sure what sort of response I would get from starting this thread, now I am glad that I did it.

I really have enjoyed all your thoughts guys, and especially have enjoyed hearing how my thread has really impressed some.

I don't have the number crunching analytical prowess of some of our forum mates, so I kinda get left out in the cold when it comes to whether a tiger tank is accurately modelled in 7.1.

But I do enjoy postulating the other aspects of what we are modelling when we discuss our subject matter.

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
Post #: 27
- 4/10/2002 6:23:04 AM   
Bernie


Posts: 1779
Joined: 3/15/2002
From: Depot HQ - Virginia
Status: offline 		As many of the other vets in this forum, I too have pondered the reasons behind my interest in this game, and others of its genre. For me, the answer is simply that the two, wargames and war, are two distinctly different beasts. When you're standing behind an M2, and incoming 7.62's are "PANggging" off the steel plate you're not thinking about the "larger" picture...you're thinking about where the muzzle flash is and how fast can you get the area in the sights. Later on, when you have time to get over the shakes, at least a little bit, you cry, scream and curse the "stupid ba*****s" that put you in that position. From the officer who ordered you to be there, to the guy who was stupid enough to think a mud wall would stop a 50 cal while he tried to punch your ticket, to the politicians back home, rightly or wrongly.

Playing a war [I]game[/I] though, you become more involved in the bigger picture, the overall objective. You are operating on a different level, as distanced from the the screams, mud and blood as any theatre commander. And, always and finally, you are aware that it is a game. Pixels may bleed and scream on the monitor, but with a click or two they're whole again...and they never feel a thing.

Reality and fantasy, life and a game, it's a matter of perspective and objectivity to me.

_____________________________

What, me worry?

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
Post #: 28
- 4/10/2002 9:01:30 AM   
Fallschirmjager


Posts: 6793
Joined: 3/18/2002
From: Chattanooga, Tennessee
Status: offline 		I have no hope of being as deep as any of the rest of you but Ill try to put something coherent together. For the next few moments ill be as tranparent and frank as I can.


Ive never served and I of course dont know the true horror of war, so this next statment might seem a bit odd. I truly enjoy war. Many ppl ask me why Im entralled with it (I own hundreds of books, videos, DVDs including my prized SS collection of memorabilia). I hope im understood a little bit better on this forum than I am by the general populace. You may wonder why I like it "war is terrible" or you may say "well you like it only because you havnt been in one". While it is true that war is terrible and of course as previously stated I havnt been in one.
Yet their is something about all the energies of 2 nations throwing their young men, sweat, natural resources, time and blood into armed conflict that locks me into its grasp.

So to put it simply the reason I play war games is because I truly like the subject matter. The more knowledge I can asorb and the closer I can get to the experience the more content I become. Wargames are but one of the vehicles that can statisfy my passion, so I guess thats why I enjoy them so.


You can now feel free to pick this apart at your will ;)

_____________________________


(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
Post #: 29
- 4/10/2002 1:00:24 PM   
Greg McCarty

 

Posts: 234
Joined: 6/15/2000
From: woodbury,mn,usa
Status: offline 		My observations:

Me? I'm a product of my time. Born just a few years after WWII.
My mom was divorced young, then she had lots of boyfriends.
So I had lots of uncles. Many were vets. "Uncle so and so, why do you have that scar on your hand?" "Uncle so and so, why do
you have a dent in your forehead?" "Uncle so and so, whats a
Tin Can, and why were you on one?" (you should have heard the stories) When I was seven, I spent a lot of time in nightclubs. (don't ask) Sometimes they showed films there on Sundays. One such film was a color Naval documentary called "The fighting lady." Some of you know that film well. Imagine the impact on a seven-year-old. By the time I was eight I was reading everything
I could get my hands on concerning the war in the school library.
At nine, I was in a friends garage when we stumbled onto some
molding copies of a Life magazine documentary. In it were vivid
photos of dead Japanese soldiers half buried in the sand on some beach. I remember being a little stunned. This was not how it looked in the "Sgt Rock" comic books. Death was not a familiar concept --just yet. In 1961 I was introduced to my first wargame quite by accident. Avalon Hill's "Tactics II." I wasn't just facinated; this was something for serious study. I was just
a freshman in high-school when I got hold of a copy of Shirer"s "Rise and Fall of the Third Riech." I consumed that tome like a graham cracker, burped once, and looked around hungrily for more. By this time I had a whole closet filled with Avalon Hill titles, and a whole lot of time was spent at the downtown library
researching what I learned from them. I joined a wargaming club and played tournaments by snail-mail using stock market indexes as "dice rolls." At eighteen I had the crackpot idea I wanted to become an Army officer. Before I could make good on that notion, I decided to join the Navy at the height of the Vietnam War. My motivation was to avoid the draft and get an inexpensive education in electronics. I got that, and a whole lot more. While on Guam, I spent time in the hills tracing out the path of the 77th division when they took back the island in 1944.
I found four knocked out M4s, three smashed Amtracks, two Japanese tanks, and more communications wire and more M1 rounds than you could shake a stick at. Later on, while in Tonkin Gulf, I didn't do much of anything except work hard. When I got back home, I spent the next ten years (when I wasn't in tech school, or riding motorcycles) reading things like Sajer's "Forgotten Soldier or Max Hasting's "Overlord." In 1980, I bought my first computer. The forerunners of the games we enjoy today came a few years later. So you see.... I was doomed from the start. (heh heh) Thats my excuse. Now as far as that crap about the evils of wargames. I've listened to that intellectually bankrupt blather from people since 1966. Ignore it. These kinds of people can't even cope with their own lives, let alone the realities of world history. One pattern I've noticed in people that were seriously engaged in this hobby over the years is that no one takes the study of war lightly or frivolously. There's nothing sick about the serious study of military history or the games that simulate it. Our efforts to learn and understand honor all those that lost their lives becoming that history. And we ignore that history at our peril. The euphoric fools that point and make criticizems spend precious time trashing everything and defending little. The words of such jackasses will be forgotten in a generation. In the broad scheme of history their momentary values will last just long enough to be annoying, but what we learn in settings like this will be discussed for centuries.

_____________________________

Greg.

It is better to die on your feet
than to live on your knees.

--Zapata

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
Post #: 30
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