Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

That is the probable solution but I have trouble with the reference that minor countries never conquers anyting, its major power does (unless it is not at war, see 2.5).

I considered that maybe Persian units are not allowed to enter Iraq because it may not be at war with Iraq but the rule is ambiguous to me.

9.7
"The minor country is at war with everyone its controlling major power is at war with, as well as the major powers that declared war on it."

That implies that Iraq is at war with Persia but Persia is not at war with Iraq. I suppose that is the solution.

-Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

In a recent discussion with a friend we had some trouble with simultaneus conquest.

Example 1.
USSR declares war on Persia. Germany gets control of Persia. Germany and CW is at war. Iraq is a CW minor. USSR units move into Tehran. The Persian cav moves into Baghdad. In the conquest step Persia is conquered by USSR and Iraq is conquered by Germany (since the hexes in Iraq is converted to German control).

Now to the tricky example.

Example 2.
USSR declares war on Persia. Germany gets control of Persia. Iraq is a USSR minor. Germany and USSR are NOT at war. Iraq moves it cav into Tehran and reverts it to USSR control. Persia moves it cav into Baghdad. The hexes stays Persian since Germany is not at war with Iraq(USSR). In the conquest step USSR is in control of Tehran and conquers Persia. Persia is in control of Baghdad. What happens to Iraq?

I am not comfortable with what comes to my mind. Persia conquers Iraq. Germany conquers Iraq. Iraq stays a USSR minor.



RAW7 AUG04
13.7.1 Conquest
You can only conquer a home country or territory if you are at war with the major power or minor country that controls it.
All conquest in a turn occurs simultaneously.
Minor countries never conquer anything. The home country or territory is instead conquered by the minor’s controlling major power (unless it is not at war, see 2.5).
2.5 Control
However, hexes taken from an enemy major power (or its controlled minors) are controlled by the major power taking them regardless of whether those hexes are taken by units of the major power or its controlled minors, unless the major powers are not at war with each other (in which case the hexes are controlled by the minor country taking them).


-Orm

Sorry, but this seems preety easy to me, unless I am missing something.

In your given scenario, a Persian unit can never conquer Iraq since Germany is not at war with the USSR (and hence Germany is not at war with Iraq). An Iraqi unit can conquer Persia, since the USSR is at war with Persia.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

RAW7 AUG04
13.7.1 Conquest
You can only conquer a home country or territory if you are at war with the major power or minor country that controls it.
All conquest in a turn occurs simultaneously.
Minor countries never conquer anything. The home country or territory is instead conquered by the minor’s controlling major power (unless it is not at war, see 2.5).
2.5 Control
However, hexes taken from an enemy major power (or its controlled minors) are controlled by the major power taking them regardless of whether those hexes are taken by units of the major power or its controlled minors, unless the major powers are not at war with each other (in which case the hexes are controlled by the minor country taking them).

-Orm

Sorry, but this seems preety easy to me, unless I am missing something.

In your given scenario, a Persian unit can never conquer Iraq since Germany is not at war with the USSR (and hence Germany is not at war with Iraq). An Iraqi unit can conquer Persia, since the USSR is at war with Persia.

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ORIGINAL: paulderynck
Minor countries can control hexes in other minor countries per the quotes from RAW provided. But "Minor countries never conquer anything".

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ORIGINAL: coregames

This may sound silly, but can a faceup TRS (or SCS) at sea, voluntarily return to base as a naval move, and on its way, move into a port, pick a unit up (DIV in the case of SCS), and move out, then into a destination port with the unit? The rules don't seem to prohibit it, but this has never occured to us.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

The cargo would arrive face down though.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

One of the US Entry options is to occupy Greenland and Iceland. With the MWIF map, the Faeroes Islands are left in limbo by this rule.

The Faeroes do not appear on the WIF FE paper maps, so there is no mention of them in the rules. However, they are similar to Greenland and Iceland, being owned by Denmark at the beginning of the war, and becoming neutral once Denmark is conquered.

Here is how the beginning of the Brute Force scenario looks currently, with the US controlling Iceland and the Faeroes being neutral (no flags).

Should the Faeroes also be given to the US when Greenland and Iceland are?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Here is how the beginning of the Brute Force scenario looks currently, with the US controlling Iceland and the Faeroes being neutral (no flags).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Here is how the beginning of the Brute Force scenario looks currently, with the US controlling Iceland and the Faeroes being neutral (no flags).

The Faeroes being neutral looks OK by WiF FE mechanisms : When Denmark falls, all Territories where no one has influence (units), reverts to neutrality.

But when you look at the history of the Faeroes, you learn that they were occupied by British forces that garrisoned it for fear of the Germans establishing SUB bases here. So maybe the Faeroes should start all scenarios starting after M/A 40 (See here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_occupation_of_the_Faroe_Islands_in_World_War_II).

quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin

IN CWiF, Denmark aligned with the CW and subsequently conquered by Germany, Greenalnd, Iceland and the Faroes all become CW controlled.

The US entry action for occupying Iceland and Greenland then makes those US controlled but the Faroes remain under CW control.

Lars

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
The only problem I have with this is how to implement it - according to the rules.

There is code that makes Greenland, Iceland, and the Faeroes go neutral once Denmark is conquered, but that same code applies to all territories (no capitals present) when their controlling minor country is conquered.

What rule(s) would cover the landing of CW troops on the Faeroes (or Iceland for that matter)?

quote:

Can major powers that are at war simply 'occupy' neutral territories if the original controlling neutral country has been conquered?

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Could Germany place units in the Faeroes? Do either of these require invasions? How about needing a DOW?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
The only problem I have with this is how to implement it - according to the rules.

There is code that makes Greenland, Iceland, and the Faeroes go neutral once Denmark is conquered, but that same code applies to all territories (no capitals present) when their controlling minor country is conquered.

What rule(s) would cover the landing of CW troops on the Faeroes (or Iceland for that matter)?

Let's just have the Faeroes CW controlled at the start of any scenario that start after M/A 40.

Otherwise, the status of the Faeores in the other scenarios will have to follow RAW, that is become neutral if there is no foreign presence in the Faeroes. Not that it really matters, because once Neutral, the CW can DoW the Faeroes to land there, and conquer it, and the case is closed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
The only problem I have with this is how to implement it - according to the rules.

There is code that makes Greenland, Iceland, and the Faeroes go neutral once Denmark is conquered, but that same code applies to all territories (no capitals present) when their controlling minor country is conquered.

What rule(s) would cover the landing of CW troops on the Faeroes (or Iceland for that matter)?

Let's just have the Faeroes CW controlled at the start of any scenario that start after M/A 40.

Otherwise, the status of the Faeores in the other scenarios will have to follow RAW, that is become neutral if there is no foreign presence in the Faeroes. Not that it really matters, because once Neutral, the CW can DoW the Faeroes to land there, and conquer it, and the case is closed.

I agree this is the way to do it but the one problem you have is U.S.Entry. FREX Denmark is conquered and the turn ends. The Faroes per RAW go neutral but also per RAW they are treated as a minor country for a DoW. Since the Faroes were added to the game I'd suggest adding to the "Occupy Iceland/Greenland" option, that at the same time, the CW can occupy the Faroes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

In terms of US Entry, is DOW a territory the same as DOW a minor country?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
That's unattractive because the CW will want to occupy the Faeroes long before the US can/wants to choose the US Entry option for Greenland/Iceland. Also, the rules indicate that the CW and Germany might have units in Iceland/Greenland when the US chooses that US entry option.

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

In terms of US Entry, is DOW a territory the same as DOW a minor country?

It is for territories that lapse into neutrality. I forget if there are any territories initially that are not owned by somebody - I don't think there are. But if you are asking the cost, it is -5 for the CW/France and +3 for Germany/Italy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
That's unattractive because the CW will want to occupy the Faeroes long before the US can/wants to choose the US Entry option for Greenland/Iceland. Also, the rules indicate that the CW and Germany might have units in Iceland/Greenland when the US chooses that US entry option.

Then maybe along with introducing the problematical islands you'll have to introduce a rule that they are automatically controlled by whoever Denmark aligns with and remain so, even if unoccupied when Denmark is conquered.

quote:

The CW can send something there before the end of the turn in which the Denmark is invaded, and they will have the Faeroes. This is what the British did IRL. The Germans invaded Denmark on the 9 April, and the British occupied the Faeroes on the 12 April. Pretty quick reaction.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Norman42

quote:

The CW can send something there before the end of the turn in which the Denmark is invaded, and they will have the Faeroes. This is what the British did IRL. The Germans invaded Denmark on the 9 April, and the British occupied the Faeroes on the 12 April. Pretty quick reaction.

I think RAW and this statement cover the situation fairly well.

It goes neutral if no troops are there during conquest; if troops are there it reverts to their control. If you want to take it after conquest, you DOW and suffer the consequences. USE Occupy Iceland option has no bearing on the Faeroes, as was historical.

So if UK wants to hold them, they either land troops before Denmark falls, or they DOW it later. Likewise for Germany.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

I like this because it is clean. Of course I still have questions:

1 - Does it have to be a land unit, or could placing a naval unit or air unit qualify as 'troops'? Does a convoy qualify?
2 - Does the same thing apply to Iceland and Greenland?
3 - Does the same thing apply to other minor countries and the territories they control?

The general rule I see here is:
a - If minor country MI is aligned to major power MA, then MA can station units in MI's territories (as per standard rules).
b - Should MI be conquered, then MI's previously held territories become neutral (as per the rule that was quoted from RAW), unless there are units present from MA or EN (the other side - any enemy country).
c - If there are troops present, then the territory does not become neutral but remains controlled by the occupying force(s).
d - If there are units from both sides present, then the control of hexes remains unchanged, with MA controlling any that previously had been controlled by MI.

This does not require a lot of coding since most of these conditional statements are already in place. It is just the line of code that says the territories become neutral that would need to be expanded (c & d above).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

I like this because it is clean. Of course I still have questions:

1 - Does it have to be a land unit, or could placing a naval unit or air unit qualify as 'troops'? Does a convoy qualify?
2 - Does the same thing apply to Iceland and Greenland?
3 - Does the same thing apply to other minor countries and the territories they control?

The general rule I see here is:
a - If minor country MI is aligned to major power MA, then MA can station units in MI's territories (as per standard rules).
b - Should MI be conquered, then MI's previously held territories become neutral (as per the rule that was quoted from RAW), unless there are units present from MA or EN (the other side - any enemy country).
c - If there are troops present, then the territory does not become neutral but remains controlled by the occupying force(s).
d - If there are units from both sides present, then the control of hexes remains unchanged, with MA controlling any that previously had been controlled by MI.

This does not require a lot of coding since most of these conditional statements are already in place. It is just the line of code that says the territories become neutral that would need to be expanded (c & d above).

1) It would have to be a unit with a garrison value (Land or AC).
2) Yes.
3) Yes.

I cut out the rules that apply.

From: 13.7.1 Conquest

Complete conquest
Each remaining territory and conquered home country it controls becomes controlled by the major power with the greatest influence in that country or territory (see incomplete conquest above). If no-one has any influence there, that territory or home country becomes neutral. Each neutral territory may subsequently be declared war on as if it were a minor country.

Use this priority to determine who has the greatest influence:
1. Whoever controls most factories in the home country (with the capital counting as an additional 3 factories for this calculation).
2. Whoever has the highest garrison value (see 13.1) in the home country.
3. Whoever occupied the home country’s last factory or capital city.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin

Per the CWiF code Danish convoys placed in Thorshavn and remaining there after Denmark has been conquered by Germany make the Faroes CW controlled as are the convoys.  CWiF also makes them CW controlled after the Danish conquest if there were no units of any kind there.

Is this intended to simulate that the CW has some undefined small presence in the Islands ?

Lars