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RE: When? - 8/11/2008 8:23:44 AM   
panzers

 

Posts: 635
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From: Detroit Mi, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansHafen

I am willing to pre purchase if financial concerns are going to substantially impact the game in a negative manner. I don't know what the suggested price is, but I imagine its $100 or more.

Keep up the great work. This is my favorite game.

This game definately needs a release party at the end so everyone can meet each other and have a drink.

Thanks, but about that party, ...

Me - Honolulu
Patrice - Marseilles
Rob Armstrong - Australia
David Heath - Colorado
Erik Rutkins - Vermont
Dan Hatchen - Saskatchewan
Lars & Terje - Norway
Michael Andersen - Denmark
Andy - Idaho
Jesper - Belgium?
Wosung - Germany
... I apologize to dozens of others I did not mention here.

For those of you who seem to think that this game is not being handled the right way, do me a favor: do some homework and check out the information about each of these individuals. If you should be so kind to take that time and look them up and their credentials for this game, you will know that all this nonsense is nothing but a waste of our time. If you should choose not to do that, then please, do us all a favor and not post on this thread because the people who have been follwing this thread know exactly what I am talking about.
Now. if you do choose to take that time to do that, then you can also take the time to follow all the monthly reports since before EiA came out. You will then know that EiA is not WiF. Matrix is a company that just takes the time to please the wargammer in all of us. To even put paradox or Strategy First or any other company for that matter in the same breath as Matrix games is ludicrous. I am in no way hating on paradox or Strategy first, but if you are a true and hardcore wargammer, then you will know that these other companies would never even remotely consider taking on a project such as WiF. If for nothing else, give Matrix credit for that. The whining and bitching needs to stop and the facts need to be read. I am not saying that this is going to be a lock, stock, and barrel success, but, in all my life of looking and following a project for a wargame, there is nothing that comes even remotely close to the efforts put out by these individuels. Even though EiA is part of ADG, they did not have the fortunes, nor the resourses that WiF has had. Again I say: please do us all a favor and take the time to look at the credentials of the people and put this to rest and move on.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 691
RE: When? - 8/11/2008 3:37:15 PM   
macgregor


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My point is that harsh criticism like we see from actually very few people, is symptomatic of the long wait. If properly digested, it's simply encouragement to finish. If there is stress being experienced by the development team, it's from the workload itself. Progress is more important than meeting deadlines, but opposition to those who are impatient can only result in uberpatience, which is not healthy either.

(in reply to panzers)
Post #: 692
RE: When? - 8/11/2008 7:14:08 PM   
Plainian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: macgregor
uberpatience, which is not healthy either.


Not quite sure what 'uberpatience' is but if anyone is feeling stress then feel free to post in the O/T WW2 Quiz folder.

371 posts in just over a month would suggest that its a good way to let off steam.....I guess I better put one of those things in here so that people can see I'm joking.

(in reply to macgregor)
Post #: 693
RE: When? - 8/11/2008 8:13:02 PM   
Cheesehead

 

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First off I want to express my support and confidence in Steve's abilities and dedication to making MWiF happen. I was a beta tester in the beginning before time constraints knocked me out of the job, but I saw enough to know that this game will be great and well worth the wait. You married guys better be building up brownie points with the wives because you won't be available much after release. Get those theater visits, ice capades, and quiet walks along the beach taken care of now.

For those of you finding your patience tested, I welcome you to get your WiF fix using the Vassal or Cyberboard game engines. You can play PBEM or online and it works fabulous as long as you know the rules. This is another reason why releasing this game without AI would be totally meaningless. Many of us are already playing WiF on our computers without an AI using the aforementioned game engines.

If you want to find opponents check out Pete's CB WiF forum at:

http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/PetesCBWiFgame/

Thanks again, Steve, for your tremendous efforts.

Cheers

John








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Post #: 694
RE: When? - 8/12/2008 4:14:23 PM   
Sgt.Fury25


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This game looks like a winner!Hope to see it out soon,but also as a playable one.Take your time,but im growing older,so hurry up!

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Post #: 695
RE: When? - 8/15/2008 7:19:22 AM   
saintjames

 

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Thanks Steve for all the hard work. You are an inspiration with you dedication and hard work. Keep smiling and have fun.

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Post #: 696
RE: When? - 8/18/2008 1:35:06 PM   
Manic Inertia

 

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Steve -

I haven't contributed to this forum regularly for a long time now, partly because I'm frustrated that my busy schedule prevents me from volunteering what would be my humble but loving efforts at the counter write-ups, which I'd love to do, if I could spare the time and effort such a fantastic idea richly deserves.

I'm not computer savvy, but I'm a lifelong obsessed WiF addict, as I firmly contend that this is the greatest board game ever devised (beyond even chess dammit!), so I'm somewhat saddened by the pessimistic and thoroughly unhelpful remarks left by some other forum members regarding your efforts.

I've had few heroes in my life, but I number amongst them technocrats like Nikita Tesla and Albert Einstein, Information Age messiahs like Bill Gates, as well as inspirational authors like Orwell and Tolkien. You, Steve, are my new hero: a solitary figure wrestling with seemingly insurmountable odds, courting bankrupcy whilst on fire with a wonderful idea; democratic and focused, humble in both adversity and success, undeterred from 'The Great Work' (as I see it) by philistines, pessimistists and attention-seekers. We all know you won't be dramatically remunerated by Matrix Games, but to you goes to satisfaction, the glory, of making the dreams of many, many people come alive. I've been playing WiF here in Melbourne Australia with my freinds for many years, and I can promise you, your name is Legend in my town.

To paraphrase Nick Cave; I don't believe in an interventionist god, but if I did, I would kneel down and ask him, not to get in your way, dude..

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Post #: 697
RE: When? - 8/18/2008 2:24:15 PM   
Manic Inertia

 

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Dammit, gimme a counter to edit - I wanna write one up!

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Post #: 698
RE: When? - 8/18/2008 6:48:33 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Manic Inertia

Dammit, gimme a counter to edit - I wanna write one up!

How about a wet counter? Andy (Sabre21) could use help with the naval units. Send him a PM to get started.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 699
RE: When? - 8/20/2008 12:39:19 AM   
stewart_king

 

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I'm on my second 1939 scenario play-through with Wendell Albright using VASSAL. (He is, naturally, kicking my butt. Germans in the Caucasus in 1941.) The VASSAL system is a real winner; we've experienced very few technical problems bar a rather long load-up of a full seven-map scenario on my elderly computer.

Here's a link to the VASSAL site: <http://www.vassalengine.org/community/index.php>.

Gotta have the AI in MWIF. No matter how long it takes.

(in reply to Cheesehead)
Post #: 700
RE: When? - 8/21/2008 5:26:18 AM   
Gravit

 

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The theme that I am beginning to see with awesome ADG boardgames Matrix-ized is that they are being done by one-person operations. 

One project manager can PM more than a single product development project.  If Matrix had one PM responsible for all of the games in development then the actual costs to this project wouldn't be $100,000.  A $110K/year PM can run 10-15 projects of this nature, making the actual project cost around 8K per year.  A PM would provide realistic work breakdown, accurate status reporting and milestones that are met.  Issues would be tracked and risks would be mitigated.

A second addition would be to have a Business Analyst added to in-development projects.  A good 80K/year BA should be able to work on 5-10 projects of this magnitude simultaneously and could handle all touchy-feely communications, polls on what the customer wants, etc.  The BA cost slice for this development would run about 12K a year.

This leaves the main developer with all of the time dedicated to coding.  This would at least double his productivity, most likely tripling it for a mere $20K/year.  It is absurd to claim that it takes 100K+ per year to increase productivity or that a dozen staff have to be hired and a new coffee machine installed with a putting green in a glass office to provide quality results on time.

The result is no ramp-up time needed, no arguing with another developer, etc.  The PM manages, the BA handles all requirements gathering and the developer codes.  You don't need to toss programmers at this project, what this project (and EIA) needs is proper project management techniques and developers who code, not try and wear three hats at once.

I'm just curious that with the failure of EIA to deliver a playable product and the continuous delays to this one why ADG hasn't taken their licenses back and re-sold them to a company that properly manages projects to provide quality results on time and within budget. Hopefully ADG has this in their license with Matrix and take the proper steps needed to publish a realistic delivery milestone and get it done with with good quality.... and if Matrix fails to deliver on time with good quality then yank the license and go shopping around to another company such as 38 studios.



< Message edited by Gravit -- 8/21/2008 5:32:19 AM >

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Post #: 701
RE: When? - 8/21/2008 6:28:40 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gravit

The theme that I am beginning to see with awesome ADG boardgames Matrix-ized is that they are being done by one-person operations. 

One project manager can PM more than a single product development project.  If Matrix had one PM responsible for all of the games in development then the actual costs to this project wouldn't be $100,000.  A $110K/year PM can run 10-15 projects of this nature, making the actual project cost around 8K per year.  A PM would provide realistic work breakdown, accurate status reporting and milestones that are met.  Issues would be tracked and risks would be mitigated.

A second addition would be to have a Business Analyst added to in-development projects.  A good 80K/year BA should be able to work on 5-10 projects of this magnitude simultaneously and could handle all touchy-feely communications, polls on what the customer wants, etc.  The BA cost slice for this development would run about 12K a year.

This leaves the main developer with all of the time dedicated to coding.  This would at least double his productivity, most likely tripling it for a mere $20K/year.  It is absurd to claim that it takes 100K+ per year to increase productivity or that a dozen staff have to be hired and a new coffee machine installed with a putting green in a glass office to provide quality results on time.

The result is no ramp-up time needed, no arguing with another developer, etc.  The PM manages, the BA handles all requirements gathering and the developer codes.  You don't need to toss programmers at this project, what this project (and EIA) needs is proper project management techniques and developers who code, not try and wear three hats at once.

I'm just curious that with the failure of EIA to deliver a playable product and the continuous delays to this one why ADG hasn't taken their licenses back and re-sold them to a company that properly manages projects to provide quality results on time and within budget. Hopefully ADG has this in their license with Matrix and take the proper steps needed to publish a realistic delivery milestone and get it done with with good quality.... and if Matrix fails to deliver on time with good quality then yank the license and go shopping around to another company such as 38 studios.



You are using a very simple management model.

Take a look at the rules for WIF and compare it to any other computer game. Then go back and rethink the tasks for your Business Analyst for requirements gathering. For instance, besides the basic Rules as Written document, there is the recent list of 360+ items from Harry Rowland on corrections and clarifications - those are the just design specifications for the simulation.

That does not cover the user interface, such as screen layouts, graphics, and how the player interacts with the program using the mouse and keyboard. There are over 100 forms for WMIF. Try comparing that to the number of forms in any other application you have ever used. Most war games have less than 20; "real-time war simulations" get by with 1 primary form/screen plus a few extras.

The increase in complexity as the number of rules increases is not linear, but at least geometric. Your BA is not going to be running 5-10 projects of this complexity each year. Take a look at the discussion today on Narvik, Liverpool, and Istanbul. The BA would not be a useful addition there - just one more person to whom everything would have to be explained.

Matrix does have a project manager running multiple projects, but he does not work down at the level you are suggesting: monitoring code development. That is because Matrix primarily takes nearly-finished games and then 'markets' them. That is their business model, with games like EIA and WIF exceptions to how they normally work.

So your idea that a PM can monitor 10-15 projects of this size down at the level of code development is unrealistic. For MWIF I have over 250 code modules containing 260,000 lines of code. I suspect that my 3-4 page weekly status report to Matrix contains a lot more detail than they want to read every week.

Even so, that level of reporting does not get down to the details you are assuming the PM will manage: "realistic work breakdown, accurate status reporting, and milestones that are met". [Wow, does that bring back memories of when I got my MBA: using adjectives that have emotional impact but add little or no substance.]

But rephrasing your idea as: a detailed task list (no more than 100 hours per individual task), hours per task, schedule for starting/ending each task, hours worked per week on each task, and milestones (assume these are clearly defined or they wouldn't be milestones). That is what I revise monthly (semi-monthly for the past few months) and what I report on weekly to Matrix. To offload that work to someone else would require that someone else to be very knowledgeable at least at the level of what each of the 250 modules and 100 forms does. He should also have an excellent understanding of the rules for MWIF or he will be hopelessly lost comprehending what is happening.

MWIF is not a run-of-the-mill game that can be punched out cookie cutter style: one of 10-15 projects, one of 5-10 projects. That would be nice but it isn't the case.
======
And about these comments that I am doing this alone, there are a couple dozen people I am in communication weekly who are doing work more or less under my direction. These are all unpaid contributions, but the time and effort they spend is quite real and so are the contributions they have made/make to the product. It's all that "touchy-feely" stuff, you see, that has resulted in thousands of hours of unpaid assistance.


_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 702
RE: When? - 8/21/2008 5:03:13 PM   
meisterchow


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I had a nice thoughtful response to add to the discussion, then got hit by the forum timeout bug.  Let me sum up:  I've been waiting for ~15 years for this product (I first got wind of ADG's desire to have a computer version of WiF in the early 90s).  I've waited that long, I can wait a little longer.  Steve is plowing through an almost impossible task (converting a board game with a 120+ page rulebook into a computer game) at almost superhuman speed.  Keep up the good work, Steve!

_____________________________

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Post #: 703
RE: When? - 8/21/2008 7:30:18 PM   
Widell


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Waiting as well. Keep up the good work!

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Post #: 704
RE: When? - 8/21/2008 8:47:48 PM   
Sewerlobster


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From: Reading, Pa. USA
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OT: Goodness yes, that time out is set way too low for slow thinkers like me. There's about 15 posts I've given up on cause I got timed out.

I like the idea of just one programmer listening to the chorus of this forum. Each month we see the progress and there's a finality in some necessary decisions. I laughed at the "no more rules changes -- even from Harry" edict. Great stuff.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Charlie Lewis

I had a nice thoughtful response to add to the discussion, then got hit by the forum timeout bug.  Let me sum up:  I've been waiting for ~15 years for this product (I first got wind of ADG's desire to have a computer version of WiF in the early 90s).  I've waited that long, I can wait a little longer.  Steve is plowing through an almost impossible task (converting a board game with a 120+ page rulebook into a computer game) at almost superhuman speed.  Keep up the good work, Steve!



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Post #: 705
RE: When? - 8/21/2008 8:57:12 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SewerStarFish

OT: Goodness yes, that time out is set way too low for slow thinkers like me. There's about 15 posts I've given up on cause I got timed out.

I like the idea of just one programmer listening to the chorus of this forum. Each month we see the progress and there's a finality in some necessary decisions. I laughed at the "no more rules changes -- even from Harry" edict. Great stuff.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Charlie Lewis

I had a nice thoughtful response to add to the discussion, then got hit by the forum timeout bug.  Let me sum up:  I've been waiting for ~15 years for this product (I first got wind of ADG's desire to have a computer version of WiF in the early 90s).  I've waited that long, I can wait a little longer.  Steve is plowing through an almost impossible task (converting a board game with a 120+ page rulebook into a computer game) at almost superhuman speed.  Keep up the good work, Steve!



Use Ctrl A followed by Ctrl C to make a copy of a post before clicking on OK. Then if you get logged off you still have to log back in but at least a Ctrl V will restore your entire post.

The trick is to learn to Ctrl A, Ctrl C, THEN click OK.

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Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 706
RE: When? - 8/22/2008 3:55:19 PM   
meisterchow


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I know, but I'm not using to be affected by this.  Until two days ago, I just kinda sneered at those who were suffering as I blithely went along my way.  I have been humbled.

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Post #: 707
RE: When? - 8/22/2008 7:59:21 PM   
Ike1947


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So, the answer is:  we're not there yet -  - but it's just over the next hill -  - and it will take us as long to get there as it takes  !  That's what I told our son and our grandsons when we were driving somewhere on vacation and they became impatient.  Keep up the good work and this is another game I'll buy from Matrix et al.

For comparison, I've been waiting for Combat Mission Campaigns for about 8 years now - give or take a few life-times; you know how that is, eh? - and Battlefront's lads recently said on the forums that it's coming - heh - but there was an AAR from a beta campaign to read on The Armchair General .  So, I can wait for this one patiently, first because I just found out about the computer version of it and second 'cause I just bought GG's War Between the States to keep me occupied.  Carry on, lads! 

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RE: When? - 8/25/2008 6:13:03 PM   
Tagwyn

 

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Not a "bad start?" Surely you jest. T

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RE: When? - 8/25/2008 10:34:31 PM   
Rodwell


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Honestly just stop responding to the "trolls". Internet forums are always full of people who behave any way they want (or think they know better than everyone else) because of the anonymity.

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Post #: 710
RE: When? - 8/26/2008 10:44:55 AM   
razanon

 

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the truth is that such a famous game like this cant be announced so many years before the release, i think is a mental pain to any guy who want to buy it. i can understand some develoment or money problems, but dont announce a game if atm no one can release it.

you remember Duke Nukem F O R E V E R??

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Post #: 711
RE: When? - 8/26/2008 10:51:43 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rodwell

Honestly just stop responding to the "trolls". Internet forums are always full of people who behave any way they want (or think they know better than everyone else) because of the anonymity.

Warspite1

I think that is the right approach. Where the comments are genuine enquiries on progress then fine these should be answered. Where its just continual sniping IGNORE THEM!!

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Post #: 712
RE: When? - 8/28/2008 3:44:43 PM   
powell30

 

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Hi Steve,

My first post so i am a 'newbie' but i have followed this game, the forum and your updates with interest for over 18 months. I guess what i am going to say may not find favour with most on here but i think my points are as valid as any one elses and i hope they are taken in the spirit of 'constructive' critism rather than an attempt to bash you or the many helpers of this project.

Last year the game was scheduled by yourself for completion by year end. Anyone with an inkling of the vast amounts still to complete could see this was impossible to accomplish and when you shifted completion to displaying at a convention in July? Aug? this year with a finished product to Matrix by year end (2008) i guess i was disappointed but could plainly see too much still had to be done. Following that you began to publish monthly reports (excellently detailed) and my hopes rose with each passing month......but you began to stop mentioning a delivery date (expected) and my worries rose. It was obvious i have to say (i was for 4 years a project manger on IT product but in no way claim any great powers of divination on games development) that the work to complete was still to vast. I imply no critisim personally nor to the many that have posted in your support but software devlopment is what i guess you do best. I do understand the vast difficulties in bringing to the market a game as detailed as MWIF's but do have to raise the issues that twice a delivery point was given and twice it has been missed. Yes i take on board we all want a GOOD finished product, it isn't the hard work and dedication i am questioning, it's the inability to deliver on schedules you yourself have given. And following the latest slip i note no further delivery time for completion has been offered. Steve, you, the team and all the contributors to the product desrve all plaudits offered and i am sure when delivered??! it will be all we all hope it will be. BUT, your the man as they say and it is dissappointing to see the delivery schedule not just slip but disappear over the horizon. Given the complexity of the game as noted and the AI to be developed i can't see this appearing in 2009........am i right?

Please all, let me just say i imply no personal critism of Steve or his team (this is by far an away the best games development forum i have ever seen and no doubt the game has benefited because of it, but that isn't my beef).......but facts are facts when it comes to delivery. The product is still a long way away........ 

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 713
RE: When? - 8/28/2008 5:03:24 PM   
wfzimmerman


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quote:

ORIGINAL: powell30

It was obvious i have to say (i was for 4 years a project manger on IT product but in no way claim any great powers of divination on games development) that the work to complete was still to vast.


One of the fundamental principles of the project management body of knowledge is the "iron triangle" of scope, cost [resources], and schedule. In this case,

1) scope is a contractually obligated constant -- MWIF = WIFFE + certain specified modules, and including an AI - the scope cannot change

2) the project manager (Steve) and the executive sponsors (Harry Rowland and Matrix) are both confident that he has done everything he can to bring additional resources on board (including thousands or maybe even tens of thousands of hours of volunteer labor from this board] - cost is maxed out

therefore

3) the delivery date is a function of the work that is required to complete the fixed scope given the maxxed out available resources.

A long winded way of saying "It will be done when it is done."

To add a more encouraging note, as a beta tester I can tell you that there is weekly, almost daily progress, and that large portions of the sequence of play run smoothly without bugs. It's happening, and it's going to be great. the only thing that could stop it is an asteroid hitting steve's apartment building in Hawaii.


_____________________________


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Post #: 714
RE: When? - 8/28/2008 5:33:36 PM   
Grapeshot Bob


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From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wfzimmerman

To add a more encouraging note, as a beta tester I can tell you that there is weekly, almost daily progress, and that large portions of the sequence of play run smoothly without bugs. It's happening, and it's going to be great. the only thing that could stop it is an asteroid hitting steve's apartment building in Hawaii.



1. I agree. The beta is going swimmingly.

2. God forbid an asteroid is so mean-spirited. But in case the worst happens, I hope Steve has a backup of his work so far.


GSB

(in reply to wfzimmerman)
Post #: 715
RE: When? - 8/28/2008 8:47:27 PM   
PzB74


Posts: 5076
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From: No(r)way
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Been keeping an eye on this one for some years, must admit I started smiling a year ago
Still, those who wait for something good....

Keep up the good work guys, we'll be there when you launch!

_____________________________



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Post #: 716
RE: When? - 8/29/2008 7:33:24 AM   
werwolf

 

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Consider this:

"Last year the game was scheduled by yourself for completion by year end
Anyone with an inkling of the vast amounts still to complete could see this was impossible to accomplish and when you shifted completion to displaying at a convention in July? Aug? this year with a finished product to Matrix by year end (2008) i guess i was disappointed but could plainly see too much still had to be done.
but you began to stop mentioning a delivery date (expected) and my worries rose
twice a delivery point was given and twice it has been missed
the inability to deliver on schedules you yourself have given.
following the latest slip i note no further delivery time for completion has been offered"

So now even Powell30 will be considered as a "troll"

Then consider that they have not answered to this:

"the delivery schedule not just slip but disappear over the horizon
.......but facts are facts
i can't see this appearing in 2009........am i right?
The product is still a long way away........
"

And finally consider that

"game will be ready when it will be"

Now consider if they REALLY want to deliver this game......


Please fill this form in:

relase date: dd/mm/yyyy

or this simlpier:
relase date mm/yyyy

or the simlpiest one:
release date: yyyy

(in reply to wfzimmerman)
Post #: 717
RE: When? - 8/29/2008 2:30:32 PM   
wfzimmerman


Posts: 660
Joined: 10/22/2003
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: werwolf

Now consider if they REALLY want to deliver this game......


Please fill this form in:

relase date: dd/mm/yyyy

or this simlpier:
relase date mm/yyyy

or the simlpiest one:
release date: yyyy



I'm not calling anyone a troll. And I don't speak for the project. This is just my personal opinion:

How does giving a date help finish the project? it doesn't change the scope, it doesn't change the amount of time required to do the work. It only changes your perception of the degree of progress.



< Message edited by wfzimmerman -- 8/29/2008 2:31:42 PM >


_____________________________


(in reply to werwolf)
Post #: 718
RE: When? - 8/31/2008 3:17:42 AM   
borner


Posts: 1485
Joined: 3/20/2005
From: Houston TX
Status: offline
To me, a good release date is 6 months after it is thought to be ready... take as long as you need, and then take more time. This game is complex, and cannot be rushed. I check out these forums about once a week, so reading every post every day is not #1 in my life, but it does seem that the people that are working on this not only want to do a good job, but care about making this worthy of WiF in general.

For those lurking around that are complaining that it's not ready, start a new thread entitled "We want a bug ridden game we can complain about", because that is what will happen. The rest of us can then just read about how things are going without the urge to reply to your banter.






(in reply to wfzimmerman)
Post #: 719
RE: When? - 8/31/2008 4:31:57 AM   
geozero


Posts: 1886
Joined: 5/22/2002
From: Southern California, U.S.A.
Status: offline
I've been following the development of this game for several years and still have an Alpha version somehwere from the original publisher.  God, I'd love to beta test this one (hint hint)...  but no matter what you do, take your time and make it right.  This game will surely be one of the best if not THE BEST strategic level WW2 of all time for the PC.  I commend you for your faithful attention to detail... this game will ROCK!!!!

_____________________________

JUST SAY NO... To Hideous Graphics.

(in reply to borner)
Post #: 720
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