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Circle Four Building Program - 8/31/2008 1:22:40 AM   
John 3rd


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Status: offline 		I am doing some research and am trying to find out the exact ships that were authorized by the Circle Four Japanese Building Program in 1940. I know that there were to be:

1. Two More Yamato's (Shinano plus ???)
2. CV Taiho
3. 6 Planned Escort Carriers (Class/Type???)
4. 6 Cruisers (Type/Class??)
5. 22 DD (Type/Class??)
6. 25 SS (Type/Class??)

Does anyone have this information? I took this much from Kaigun...


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RE: Circle Four Building Program - 8/31/2008 1:50:30 AM   
Local Yokel


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Status: offline 		This link on the j-aircraft board may help to take you in the right direction. FWIW, it includes a link to the Japanese language Wikipedia item on Circle 4. A post on the j-aircraft board suggests that 6 Akizuki's formed part of the programme.

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RE: Circle Four Building Program - 8/31/2008 2:52:28 AM   
John 3rd


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Status: offline 		That is a good start.  For DDs figure 6 Moon-Class and the rest Fubuki/Standard Japanese DD.

Can anyone find anything on the Cruisers?  I would bet on at least a pair of CA but what?  Tone-Class again?


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RE: Circle Four Building Program - 8/31/2008 3:04:40 AM   
Terminus


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Status: offline 		Well, the design that later became the Ibuki class were initially intended to be repeat Tones, so there was some thinking along those lines. As for CL's, maybe more Oyodos?

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RE: Circle Four Building Program - 8/31/2008 3:08:24 AM   
Terminus


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Status: offline 		BTW, I don't know how realistic you intend your mod to be, but I think you need to be careful when considering exactly how many resources the Japs could devote to this program. It seems unrealistic that this entire sheaf of ships could be built. I especially foresee you having to choose between the fourth Yamato and Taiho.

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RE: Circle Four Building Program - 8/31/2008 3:32:47 AM   
John 3rd


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Status: offline 		Hey Terminus.

I am thinking about adding all of the Circle 4 Program into a Mod to allow the Japanese more flexibility in their building during the war.  Considering now many of us expand shipyards at the start, this could be a possiblity within the game. 

The big change I intend to make though is to cancel the 4th Yamato and replace it with a pair of Taihos or Shokaku-Class CV.  Let the option be to complete Shinano as a BB for kicks and grins.  Could the Japanese have done this IRL?  No.  Could the Japanese--potentially--do it in the game...maybe...

I think your comment about the Ibuki-Class cruiser is dead-on.  I forgot that she was a conversion.  Perhaps two of her class and four more Agano's?  Hmmm...

I would prefer to stay with what was planned (exception being the 4th Yamato) to be built...


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RE: Circle Four Building Program - 8/31/2008 3:58:22 AM   
Elouda

 

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Status: offline 		One of the DDs atleast was the Shimakaze, as far as I know - Perhaps some of the others were further ships of the same class? (Some sources state 16 in total were planned..)

As for the Ibuki - while the design contemplated in 1940 was similar to the Tone, it was altered in 1942 and would have been more of an improved Mogami class.

I would guess perhaps 2 Ibuki class CA, and atleast 2 Oyodo class CL.

We know this because Oyodo herself was part of this program, as was her sister Niyodo.

The remainder might have been more Agano class CLs.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Edit;

Ok, from reading http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%9E%E3%83%AB4%E8%A8%88%E7%94%BB, Ive noted the following.

The 6 Cruisers were Oyodo and Niyodo, and the 4 Agano class CLs.

Only one Shimakaze class (#125) was included in this plan. The other DDs are 4 Kagero class (#112-115), 13 Yugumo class (#116-124 & #126-129 where #128-129 were never completed), 6 Akizuki class (#104-109). This is 24 ships - If dont count the two unfinished Yugumos, it matches your 22.

As for subs, theres 1 A1 type, 15 B1 type - one of which was not built, 10 KD7 type. This matches the 25 you mention, if you discount the unfinished one.

Ill try look for more info - if anyone finds something that Ive misinterpreted, then please do tell.

So far it looks like most of the smaller ships in the program are already accounted for.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Extra edit;

Ok, it seems the Ibuki class were actually from the 1941 Supplementary program. Hence why they dont show up in the 4th program.

It seems the link to the page dosent work here, its found halfway down on http://www.j-aircraft.org/smf/index.php?topic=5470.0

< Message edited by Elouda -- 8/31/2008 6:34:27 AM >

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RE: Circle Four Building Program - 8/31/2008 6:32:40 AM   
John 3rd


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Status: offline 		Fantastic.

I've found two sources that state the cruisers were two Ibuki (built along the Suzuya lines), two Oyodo, and two Agano.

Your DDs look like a good match to the real count.

I need to go into the WitP database and see how many of those DD are including in the building list.


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RE: Circle Four Building Program - 8/31/2008 6:46:01 AM   
Elouda

 

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Status: offline 		Ive also seen mention of them being in the 4th program, but the Japanese wiki site only makes a reference to 'discontinued two 13,000t cruisers' in the amendments section of the page. However it is very explicit about there being 4 Agano class, going so far as to name each. Its noted that there were originally to be 5, but one was removed from the order.

Their page for the Ibuki class then goes on to state that they were added under the 1941 plan (english wiki agrees with this), and designed as improved Mogami class with minor changes, to be built at Kure (Ibuki) and Nagasaki (sister).

Also worth noting is that both the 5th and 6th programs see a large increase in planned cruisers (including what looks like a class of 4 CLAAs). As these were from 1941/42, it might make more sense for the Ibukis to have come from the same timeframe (1941).

Ill try and dig up more sources, though the japanese wikipedia article is amazingly detailed.

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RE: Circle Four Building Program - 8/31/2008 6:50:51 AM   
John 3rd


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Status: offline 		Great work!  Could you provide the names for the ships and their respective classes?  As I cannot read Japanese, I will have to leave it to you for finding that.

I figure that the Circle Four Program was the last Program Japan had with any chance of laying keels and trying to produce ships.  The idea of getting to CHOOSE some ships to be finished and which you cannot would be a lot of fun for a JFB like me!

Thanks for the effort...


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RE: Circle Four Building Program - 8/31/2008 6:53:19 AM   
John 3rd


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Status: offline 		The question I have here is---were these 22 DD actually accounted for in the WitP shipbuilding que? I would need names to find out.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elouda

One of the DDs atleast was the Shimakaze, as far as I know - Perhaps some of the others were further ships of the same class? (Some sources state 16 in total were planned..)

As for the Ibuki - while the design contemplated in 1940 was similar to the Tone, it was altered in 1942 and would have been more of an improved Mogami class.

I would guess perhaps 2 Ibuki class CA, and atleast 2 Oyodo class CL.

We know this because Oyodo herself was part of this program, as was her sister Niyodo.

The remainder might have been more Agano class CLs.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Edit;

Ok, from reading http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%9E%E3%83%AB4%E8%A8%88%E7%94%BB, Ive noted the following.

The 6 Cruisers were Oyodo and Niyodo, and the 4 Agano class CLs.

Only one Shimakaze class (#125) was included in this plan. The other DDs are 4 Kagero class (#112-115), 13 Yugumo class (#116-124 & #126-129 where #128-129 were never completed), 6 Akizuki class (#104-109). This is 24 ships - If dont count the two unfinished Yugumos, it matches your 22.

As for subs, theres 1 A1 type, 15 B1 type - one of which was not built, 10 KD7 type. This matches the 25 you mention, if you discount the unfinished one.

Ill try look for more info - if anyone finds something that Ive misinterpreted, then please do tell.

So far it looks like most of the smaller ships in the program are already accounted for.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Extra edit;

Ok, it seems the Ibuki class were actually from the 1941 Supplementary program. Hence why they dont show up in the 4th program.

It seems the link to the page dosent work here, its found halfway down on http://www.j-aircraft.org/smf/index.php?topic=5470.0



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RE: Circle Four Building Program - 8/31/2008 7:01:52 AM   
Elouda

 

Posts: 183
Joined: 2/16/2008
From: Helsinki, Finland
Status: offline 		Kagero class;
112-Arashi
113-Hagikaze
114-Maikaze
115-Akigumo

Yugumo class;
116-Yugumo
117-Makigumo
118-Kazagumo
119-Naganami
120-Makinami
121-Takanami
122-Onami
123-Kiyonami
124-Tamanami
126-Suzunami
127-Fujinami
(128-?????)
(129-?????)

Shimakaze class;
125-Shimakaze

Akizuki class;
104-Akizuki
105-Teruzuki
106-Suzutsuki
107-Hatsuzuki
108-Niizuki
109-Wakatsuki

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RE: Circle Four Building Program - 8/31/2008 7:05:23 AM   
John 3rd


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Status: offline 		OK.  Those ships are in the reinforcements already except 128/129.  What names did you find for the cruisers?

Does the Japanese Wikipedia mention anything about the 6 CVEs mentioned in Kaigun?

Am headed for bed so I won't write back too soon.



< Message edited by John 3rd -- 8/31/2008 7:06:13 AM >

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RE: Circle Four Building Program - 8/31/2008 7:08:19 AM   
Elouda

 

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Status: offline 		Oyodo class;
Oyodo
Niyodo

Agano class;
Agano
Noshiro
Yahagi
Sakawa

All of these apart from Niyodo are ingame as far as I know.

I would bet the same goes for the submarines, though I havent checked.

Couldnt find anything about CVEs, though there is a mention of 4 seaplane tenders, 3 of which were canceled - the only one completed was Akitsushima. Maybe these were intended to be converted to CVEs much like Chitose?

Also a 5,000t Oiler - another shadow CVE?

Also a mention of a Katori training cruiser - this would be Kashii, completed in 1941. Addition of a second, this is the unfinished Kashiwara. Maybe they finally realise how useless these things were...



The 5th program also makes no mention of CVEs, only the redesign of Taiho. It does include 7 seaplane tenders and 2 seaplane carries. The 5th program also intrestingly includes proposals for 5 more Agano class CLs, the B64/5 Super Cruisers, and the CLAAs I mentioned earlier. It also includes changes to the 4/5th Yamato class, including use of 3.9in AA guns, and a slightly thinner belt - notes on possibility of 18.1in/50 main guns. Also abstracts about Super Yamato class.

The amendement to the 5th program goes really overboard, scrapping almost everything for 5 Taiho class CVs, and if I read it correctly, 13 Unryu class CVs. A little too much a little too late maybe?

----------------------------------------------

Edit;

Ive come to the conclusion that almost all the CVEs are absent from the programs listed there. There are passing mentions of support/assistant aircraft carriers, but nothing more than that.

Perhaps these were authorized on a case by case basis or in some smaller program and not as part of the main naval construction programs? Will do some digging to find out.

< Message edited by Elouda -- 8/31/2008 7:52:52 AM >

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RE: Circle Four Building Program - 8/31/2008 12:33:03 PM   
Terminus


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Status: offline 		By the way, find a different name for the Niyodo. "Niyodo" just means "Oyodo number two".

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RE: Circle Four Building Program - 8/31/2008 12:54:06 PM   
Elouda

 

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Status: offline 		Well, its written as 仁淀, but if that was ever intended to be its name, who knows. Kinda humourous though.

Oyodo is named after a river in the Miyazaki prefecture in Kyushu. Best bet for an alternate name would be finding something similar. There is always the pre WW1 Yodo, which was scrapped in 1940.

Edit;

Well, it seems Niyodo is a river too. So its a valid name, and a good one too, in my opinion. Comes up with 仁淀川 on the japanese wiki.

< Message edited by Elouda -- 8/31/2008 1:03:08 PM >

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RE: Circle Four Building Program - 8/31/2008 2:03:24 PM   
Terminus


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Status: offline 		That's interesting. Every source I've ever seen just said "Niyodo" = "Oyodo #2" so I never bothered looking further. Niyodo is indeed a river.

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RE: Circle Four Building Program - 8/31/2008 3:12:57 PM   
Shark7


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Status: offline 		On the Battleships, this source does give a penant number of 111.  Three others, penant numbers 797, 798, & 799 that were cancelled before order.

http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/battleships/ijn_dr.htm

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RE: Circle Four Building Program - 8/31/2008 3:42:55 PM   
Elouda

 

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Status: offline 		Yeah, Hull Numbers 111 & 797 were to be modified the way I detailed above according to the 5th program. 798 & 799 were the two proposed Super Yamato hulls. These were all cancelled in favor of CVs in the amended 5th program.

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RE: Circle Four Building Program - 8/31/2008 11:29:19 PM   
John 3rd


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Status: offline 		Thanks again for all the help!  At least now I have some names and specific ship classes to work with.  I think it would be fun for the Japanese player to at least have some options when it came to ship construction.  This material could help with some of that.

Wonder what some of those emergency CV names were beyond the ones that did get completed?  Might be useful to add a few of them that wouldn't come in until WAY late in the war...
  

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RE: Circle Four Building Program - 8/31/2008 11:48:06 PM   
Elouda

 

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Status: offline 		No problem. I definately support more alternatives. Personally I find the 4 CLAAs and the B64/65 Class from the 5th program the most interesting to add.

I made a personal mod to the Experimental CHS scenario (159) by adding 2 more Taihos(Osumi and Minoo), the B65 Class (Fuji and Chichibu), and the last two Yamatos (Omi and Kii), and changing the Ibukis back into CAs (Ibuki and Iwaki). These all follow historic naming patterns, apart from the CVs as I was really stumped for names. I also added the 5 Montana class BBs to Allied side to mix things up a little - Its not like they need them though. Had a lot of fun playing the AI with this just to see how they change things.

As someone who routinely scraps even Yamato and Musashi to accelerate the Unryu class CVs into mid-43, I find the main problem with late CVs is that you just dont have capable enough airgroups to use them for anything besides raiding - in a standup CV fight, they just get slaughtered.

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RE: Circle Four Building Program - 9/1/2008 12:30:47 AM   
Terminus


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Status: offline 		I wouldn't worry too much about carrier names. Remember that the Japs themselves didn't bother with "proper" names for the Unryus, aside from the name ship herself.

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RE: Circle Four Building Program - 9/1/2008 7:04:55 AM   
Tiornu

 

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Status: offline 		L&W is a great source that goes well beyond cruisers-only. It discusses a lot of general warship construction matters.
The next heavy cruisers after the Tones (including Ibuki) were developed not from the Tones but from Suzuya, even though they were planned to be deployed in the same division with the Tones. Designers didn't even bother trying to juggle the barbettes so all the guns could rest at zero elevation. I see this as a strong indicator of the IJN's verdict on the Tone design.

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RE: Circle Four Building Program - 9/1/2008 3:18:41 PM   
John 3rd


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Status: offline 		Tiornu--What is L&W? 



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RE: Circle Four Building Program - 9/1/2008 3:28:59 PM   
John 3rd


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Status: offline 		I've continued researching and tabulating everything said and see this for the cruiser construction planned:

2 CA along the Suzuya-Class
4 CL along the Agano-Class

Elouda laid out the DD Classes.

It would appear that the Japanese got nearly all the planned DDs finished.  Does that mean they got into the Circle 5 construction?  Was all that planning erased when Midway happened and they radically shifted to the CV expansion program?


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RE: Circle Four Building Program - 9/1/2008 3:52:30 PM   
Elouda

 

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Status: offline 		Well, as I see it we have, and if theyre in game (CHS) or not;

4th Program - 1939/1940
2 BB Yamato (1 Converted (Shinano), 1 Missing)
1 CV Taiho (Included)
4 CL Agano (Included) - 1 was dropped from plan
2 CL Oyodo (1 Missing)
4 DD Kagero (Included)
13 DD Yugumo (2 Missing)
1 DD Shimakaze (Included)
6 DD Akizuki (Included)

1 CL Katori (Included)
4 AV Akitsushima (1 Included) - 3 were dropped from plan

Subs and Auxilaries

5th Program - 1941/1942
1 BB Yamato (Missing)
2 BB Super Yamato (Missing)
2 BC B65 Class (Missing)
2 CV Unryu (Included)
5 CL Agano (Missing)
4 CLAA Type 815 (Missing)
16 DD Redesigned Yugumo - AA refit?
16 DD Akizuki

Subs and Auxilaries

Amended 5th Program - 1942 (Post Midway)
Removed 1 BB Yamato
Removed 2 BB Super Yamato
Removed 2 BC B65 Class
Added 4 CV Taiho (Missing)
Added 11 CV Unryu (Some Included)
Removed 3 CL Agano
Removed 4 CLAA Type 815
Removed 8 DD Redesigned Yugumo - AA refit?
Added 7 DD Akizuki

Massive increase in subs and auxilaries

There are also further additions to the 5th program, but most of those arent on the wiki. One of them adds more subs.


As for the Ibukis. They arent in any of the major programs, apart from the 'cancelled two 13,000t CA' in the 4th one.

What I believe happened was they were slated to be included in that as two Tone-like CA, but were pulled (with a clause to reintroduce upon review) and then redesigned along the lines of Suzuya, and then added in some sub-program in 1941.

Thats just speculation though.

< Message edited by Elouda -- 9/1/2008 11:23:39 PM >

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RE: Circle Four Building Program - 9/1/2008 6:47:48 PM   
mikemike

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elouda


As for the Ibukis. They arent in any of the major programs, apart from the 'cancelled two 13,000t CA' in the 4th one.

What I believe happened was they were slated to be included in that as two Tone-like CA, but were pulled (with a clause to reintroduce upon review) and then redesigned along the lines of Suzuya, and then added in some sub-program in 1941.

Thats just speculation though.


I've looked into my Whitley, and he says that two repeat Tone CA's were authorized under the 1941 program, but in the view of experience redesigned as improved repeat Suzuyas.

The 1942 program contained five Oyodo CL, and the 1942M program two.

Concerning the destroyers, I've found the following:

1941: 16 repeat Yugumos, of which eight were cancelled (348-355), the others are all in
10 repeat Akizukis, of which six were completed (360-365, all in), Mochizuki was laid down, but cancelled and scrapped, the others were never begun.

Program 1942:
16 improved Akizuki (Arashikaru group, No. 770-785)
16 Shimakaze (No. 733-748)
all cancelled
29 Matsu DE (No. 5481-5509) 18 finished (all in), 11 cancelled

Program 1942M:
eight Yugumo (No. 5041-5048)
22 Akizuki (Yamazuki group, No. 5061-5083)
all cancelled

13 Tachibana DE (No. 5510-5522) all completed, all in

Program 1943/44:
20 Tachibana DE (No. 4801-4820) Hatsuyumo finished, all others cancelled. The nine boats of this group that were launched or laid down are all present in stock.

80 further Tachibanas were planned for the 1944/45 program, but all cancelled

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Post #: 27
RE: Circle Four Building Program - 9/1/2008 6:49:23 PM   
Terminus


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Status: offline 		Far as I know, the Type 815 was just more Katoris. Why on Earth waste more time on those?

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RE: Circle Four Building Program - 9/1/2008 7:26:37 PM   
Elouda

 

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From: Helsinki, Finland
Status: offline 		@Mike;

Thanks. A lot of those agree with what Ive got, but there seems to be some differences in the later DDs. Maybe some of these are from the other subsidiary circle 5 programs?

As for the Ibukis, like I said its just speculation, as I could find nothing more on these '13,000t CAs' mentioned in the circle 4 amendments. Was just trying to tie these into the Ibukis we know which were introduced in the 1941 program.

As for the 'Oyodos' you mention...the numbers seem right, but my sources state them as an 'improved agano class', with 2,000t more standard displacement, which makes them a tad heavier than the Oyodos. Weaponry is 4xIIx6in/50 and 4xIIx3in/65. Speed of 38kt.


@Terminus;

The displacments match the Katoris at 5,800t, but the weaponry is definately intended as AA with 4xIIx3.9in/65. Nothing mentioned about speed, maybe the loss of some of the guns actually meant they could travel at ~30kts. Its also noted they were to be equivalents to USNs Atlanta class. Who knows.

< Message edited by Elouda -- 9/1/2008 7:29:11 PM >

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RE: Circle Four Building Program - 9/1/2008 8:15:42 PM   
Dili

 

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quote:

Tiornu--What is L&W?


I think he means this: http://www.amazon.com/Japanese-Cruisers-Pacific-Eric-Lacroix/dp/0870213113


Note that Maya got one of 8" turrets taken out for another pair of 5"(in reality 6x5"Turrets replacing 4x4.7") at end of 43-begin 44. I would not be suprised that new Suzuyas(serie II) would get that too.

(in reply to Elouda)
Post #: 30
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