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RE: Still finding it very difficult to master this game

 
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RE: Still finding it very difficult to master this game - 6/5/2008 2:06:14 AM   
NeverMan

 

Posts: 1722
Joined: 2/24/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: igor7111


this actually sounds like it WOULD be very helpful. is it available online anywhere? (I obviously don't own the board game).


quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

The original EiA board game tutorial should be sufficient.




I think he was being sarcastic. The only original EiA board game tutorial I ever had was the rulebook and a group of friends.

On that note, I agree with Grape Bob about how the tutorial should be done.

(in reply to igor7111)
Post #: 31
RE: Still finding it very difficult to master this game - 6/5/2008 3:58:37 AM   
gwheelock

 

Posts: 563
Joined: 12/27/2007
From: Coon Rapids, Minnesota
Status: offline 		As a side suggestion - while you are creating the tutorial - create a varient of that game that can
ONLY play the tutorial & you could post that as a freebie/demo to drum up more sales. 

(in reply to NeverMan)
Post #: 32
RE: Still finding it very difficult to master this game - 6/5/2008 4:27:11 AM   
Jimmer

 

Posts: 1968
Joined: 12/5/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gwheelock

As a side suggestion - while you are creating the tutorial - create a varient of that game that can
ONLY play the tutorial & you could post that as a freebie/demo to drum up more sales. 

That idea dovetails into my idea very well, if it can be done. Excellent idea!

_____________________________

At LAST! The greatest campaign board game of all time is finally available for the PC. Can my old heart stand the strain?

(in reply to gwheelock)
Post #: 33
RE: Still finding it very difficult to master this game - 6/5/2008 2:48:19 PM   
Marshall Ellis


Posts: 5630
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		All good suggestions guys.
Appreciate them!


_____________________________

Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games



(in reply to Jimmer)
Post #: 34
RE: Still finding it very difficult to master this game - 6/5/2008 6:58:48 PM   
Grapeshot Bob


Posts: 642
Joined: 12/16/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

The original EiA board game tutorial should be sufficient.


No it wouldn't.

Respectfully I have to disagree. Unless you were kidding, in which case I apologise for being a d*ck.

How do you explain the UI and all it's choices? How to purchase units, place corps, select leaders, start production, change diplomacy settings, etc?



GSB

< Message edited by Grapeshot Bob -- 6/5/2008 7:02:56 PM >

(in reply to pzgndr)
Post #: 35
RE: Still finding it very difficult to master this game - 6/5/2008 7:03:22 PM   
Jimmer

 

Posts: 1968
Joined: 12/5/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Grapeshot Bob

Respectfully I have to disagree.

No it wouldn't.

How do you explain the UI and all it's choices? How to purchase units, place corps, select leaders, start production, change diplomacy settings, etc?



GSB

His comment was either a joke or a sly way of patting his own back: There was no tutorial in the original game. People had to learn the game the hard way: By playing it.

_____________________________

At LAST! The greatest campaign board game of all time is finally available for the PC. Can my old heart stand the strain?

(in reply to Grapeshot Bob)
Post #: 36
RE: Still finding it very difficult to master this game - 6/5/2008 7:49:16 PM   
pzgndr

 

Posts: 3170
Joined: 3/18/2004
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

I think he was being sarcastic. The only original EiA board game tutorial I ever had was the rulebook and a group of friends.


Of course I was being sarcastic. Go back to post #5 where I agree a tutorial would be helpful.

I do question what has happened over the past few decades to wargamers' ability to figure stuff out. Back in the day of board wargames with thick rulebooks and maybe a few examples of play described, players had to figure it all out on their own without tutorials, AI, internet forums, etc. You had to wait for a monthly magazine to arrive in your mailbox to maybe have a feature article, AAR game playback, or rules errata to read. Argh, it built character.

(in reply to NeverMan)
Post #: 37
RE: Still finding it very difficult to master this game - 6/5/2008 8:50:28 PM   
Murat


Posts: 803
Joined: 9/17/2003
From: South Carolina
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

Of course I was being sarcastic. Go back to post #5 where I agree a tutorial would be helpful.

I do question what has happened over the past few decades to wargamers' ability to figure stuff out. Back in the day of board wargames with thick rulebooks and maybe a few examples of play described, players had to figure it all out on their own without tutorials, AI, internet forums, etc. You had to wait for a monthly magazine to arrive in your mailbox to maybe have a feature article, AAR game playback, or rules errata to read. Argh, it built character.


And we ate SAND because we couldn't afford nothing else! And we played in the ARCTIC SNOWS because there was no fancy email, no post office, you had to walk your next move to your opponent and it was uphill both ways and we didn't have any shoes.

(in reply to pzgndr)
Post #: 38
RE: Still finding it very difficult to master this game - 6/5/2008 10:56:54 PM   
igor7111

 

Posts: 126
Joined: 10/1/2005
Status: offline 		while i agree in general with what you say, i think it's more the interface issues that are giving people problems. once you move to the next sequence, if you forgot to do something, like declare war, you're outta luck. it's a sequencing issue.

the old boardgames, hell, you coulda been playing it all wrong and you'd never know, unless you ran up against a player who knew better.

but i hear ya.....we made do with the frikkin rule book,
rule 35.12.6.a says you have to have a corps there before you can place a depot.....musta missed that one. i stuck a depot there and nobody stopped me, so who knew?

(in reply to pzgndr)
Post #: 39
RE: Still finding it very difficult to master this game - 6/6/2008 5:24:19 PM   
Marshall Ellis


Posts: 5630
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		igor7111:

You bring up an interesting point that I have noticed as well. It seems that every gaming groups agrees to certain interpretations / implementations of rules (Some become house rules). For example, I have been in a PBEM game where the players were aloud to move ships with depots on them without destroying the depot??!! Nobody argued so it was aloud. Often nobody says anything because as soon as a rules dispute pops up, BAM one week delay with hundreds of emails quoting rules, etc. Hopefully, I will help get rid of this sort of stuff (eventually).



_____________________________

Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games



(in reply to igor7111)
Post #: 40
RE: Still finding it very difficult to master this game - 6/6/2008 10:41:00 PM   
thistlebarrow

 

Posts: 16
Joined: 1/12/2008
Status: offline 		Hi Igor

I completely agree with the point you make, which seems to be overlooked by experienced players of this game. With a board game you do what you want, how you want. Even if you play the game wrong, you are still able to continue. With a computer game if you do not follow the correct sequence you are unable to continue with the game. It is not possible to ask the game why it has stopped, or what you should do to continue. This is why is it so important to have what I call the basic mechanics of the game explained.

I am therefore very pleased that Marshall has agreed to provide a tutorial which would allow newcomers to the game to master the computer interface.

Some experienced players seem to be confusing the difficulty of mastering the mechanics, and the need for a tutorial to cover these subjects, with the much more complicated problem of understanding the military and political stragegy of the Napoleonic period. I agree that the tutorial should not attempt to cover this aspect of the game, and indeed I also agree that it would not really be possible to do so. Whether the AI is sufficient to provide a historically accurate outcome is a different matter,and one which should not be addressed in this strand.

Thistlebarrow

(in reply to igor7111)
Post #: 41
RE: Still finding it very difficult to master this game - 6/7/2008 3:59:31 PM   
pzgndr

 

Posts: 3170
Joined: 3/18/2004
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		I didn't pay too much attention to the tutorial guide when it came out but I looked at it last night. It already does a pretty good job of explaining the game mechanics in a step-by-step manner. A tutorial scenario wouldn't hurt but the guide already covers most everything. It sure would have helped me and others on Day 1.

Since the tutorial guide is now available, a fair question for thistlebarrow and others is what more does it need to cover? Are there game functions that are not explained adequately or at all, and are more screenshots and other examples needed? Ralegh could make some updates and a new version of the tutorial guide could be provided with v1.03. This could be done in parallel with a tutorial scenario/demo. Regardless of what the tutorial or learning scenario may cover, players must still understand the learning curve for this game is steep and there is no good substitute for reading the rules and getting into the game interface, repeatedly.

Another thing that seriously needs to be considered is an update of the manual. The addendum items should be added. The original EiA rules section 15.0 Player Notes should be added. Additional clarifications and examples would be helpful. An updated pdf manual could also be provided with v1.03. That would be helpful.

(in reply to NeverMan)
Post #: 42
RE: Still finding it very difficult to master this game - 6/7/2008 6:45:52 PM   
Marshall Ellis


Posts: 5630
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		The DEV team would certainly want to know this!


_____________________________

Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games



(in reply to pzgndr)
Post #: 43
RE: Still finding it very difficult to master this game - 9/3/2008 6:26:42 PM   
thistlebarrow

 

Posts: 16
Joined: 1/12/2008
Status: offline 		Hi Erik

In Post 14 on 3 June you posted:

"Based on this post, I'm going to add to our work list to do a few video interface tutorials for all the basic tasks. These will take some time to do, but we'll make it happen. I agree with you that we should have had more in the way of tutorials as part of the initial release. "

I return to the forum every couple of weeks to see if there is any progress, and I note that there is another thread covering the same problem.

Any progress with the promised tutorial?

Regards

Thistlebarrow

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 44
RE: Still finding it very difficult to master this game - 11/27/2008 5:23:17 PM   
thistlebarrow

 

Posts: 16
Joined: 1/12/2008
Status: offline 		What is happening to the promised tutorial?

In June 2008 Erik wrote:

"Based on this post, I'm going to add to our work list to do a few video interface tutorials for all the basic tasks. These will take some time to do, but we'll make it happen. I agree with you that we should have had more in the way of tutorials as part of the initial release."

It is clear from many posts since then, that a considerable number of people who have bought this game are having problems similar to my own.

Is work progressing on the tutorial, or has it been forgotten?

(in reply to thistlebarrow)
Post #: 45
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