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RE: Blood in the Air - 9/9/2008 2:23:53 PM   
arichbourg


Posts: 32
Joined: 7/2/2005
Status: offline 		How sweet that would have been, historically. Great AAR as always.

(in reply to ulver)
Post #: 31
Russan advance - 9/9/2008 4:43:31 PM   
ulver

 

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From: Danmark, Europe
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quote:

ORIGINAL: arichbourg

How sweet that would have been, historically. Great AAR as always.

Thanks, glad to know it is being read.

Yes, sweet indeed, it would have been a very different post war world although I think, realistically, it would have taken something of a miracle for a liberal democracy to emerge from the chaos of Great War Russia. I suppose some sort of mild autocracy might well have been possible.

Alexander Kerensky was just in every way possibly the wrong man for the job of stopping the communists but someone like Lavr Kornilov might well have succeeded. I’d like to think that is what happened here.

In our game I think my opponent may have made mistake in launching such a massive attack to retake large swaths of the Middle East as the lessening of pressure on the Russian enabled them to slightly alleviate their horrible food situation.



Jul-Aug 1916: The Armies of the Russian Republic succeed in gaining some more precious food. Is that what saved her?

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< Message edited by ulver -- 9/9/2008 5:00:37 PM >

(in reply to arichbourg)
Post #: 32
RE: Russan advance - 9/9/2008 4:54:12 PM   
ulver

 

Posts: 527
Joined: 9/9/2001
From: Danmark, Europe
Status: offline 		On the Northern Sector on the other hand things are looking very grim indeed with the Germans pushing deep into the heart of Russia. Desperate plans are being made to rail massive Western reinforcements in to save Somlensk. Will they arrive in time?


Jul-Aug 1916:Russia needs direct support. Now!!!!

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< Message edited by ulver -- 9/9/2008 5:06:52 PM >

(in reply to ulver)
Post #: 33
RE: Russan advance - 9/9/2008 5:06:08 PM   
ulver

 

Posts: 527
Joined: 9/9/2001
From: Danmark, Europe
Status: offline 		In the air the Entente air force continue to sweep the Germans from the sky. Weight of Industrial production is really beginning to tell.


Jul-Aug 1916: Victory in the skies

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Post #: 34
RE: Russan advance - 9/9/2008 9:12:40 PM   
ulver

 

Posts: 527
Joined: 9/9/2001
From: Danmark, Europe
Status: offline 		In the Middle East a series of bad misjudgments leads to the Central Powers gaining considerable ground.

I was absolutely paranoid about the risk of having my lines of supply cut while there was a risk of Russia succumbing to Lenin – that could potentially have resulted the entire expeditionary force being stranded out of supply. I had some issues with rail moves – I suppose that is what you must expect when Italians, British, French and Russians are trying to use the same rail net – and thus had trouble taking Baghdad to open a second line of supply.

I will need to beef up defenses to ensure he doesn’t liberate Ottoman resources.


Jul-Aug 1916: German offensive in Anatolia

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< Message edited by ulver -- 9/12/2008 6:31:28 PM >

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Post #: 35
RE: Russan advance - 9/9/2008 9:44:53 PM   
Naskra

 

Posts: 325
Joined: 3/12/2005
Status: offline 		Bizarre.  A dozen armies in the black hole theater.

(in reply to ulver)
Post #: 36
RE: Russan advance - 9/11/2008 3:02:05 AM   
Mike Dubost

 

Posts: 273
Joined: 8/24/2008
From: Sacramento, CA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ulver

quote:

ORIGINAL: arichbourg

How sweet that would have been, historically. Great AAR as always.

Thanks, glad to know it is being read.

Yes, sweet indeed, it would have been a very different post war world although I think, realistically, it would have taken something of a miracle for a liberal democracy to emerge from the chaos of Great War Russia. I suppose some sort of mild autocracy might well have been possible.

Alexander Kerensky was just in every way possibly the wrong man for the job of stopping the communists but someone like Lavr Kornilov might well have succeeded. I’d like to think that is what happened here.

In our game I think my opponent may have made mistake in launching such a massive attack to retake large swaths of the Middle East as the lessening of pressure on the Russian enabled them to slightly alleviate their horrible food situation.



This is off topic, but I just cannot resist telling a great story.

Back in the 1980s, one of my high school teachers told us about a party he had been at years earlier (I think it was in Berkeley). A stuck-up UC Berkeley professor (BP from here on out) was talking to an elderly White Russian (WR from here on out). BP was saying that he knew how Kerensky could have won the Russian Civil War. If Kerensky did A, everything would have been fine, or he could have done B and it would have been great. WR kept bringing up other points. If Kerensky did A, the Reds would have responded with W, or B wouldn't have worked because of Z. Finally, BP gets up on his high horse and says "I'm a UC Berkeley professor of history, what do YOU know about the subject?". To which WR says, "Clearly we haven't been introduced. I'm Kerensky!".

(in reply to ulver)
Post #: 37
RE: Russan advance - 9/11/2008 3:53:55 AM   
Lascar


Posts: 489
Joined: 10/7/2000
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Dubost


quote:

ORIGINAL: ulver

quote:

ORIGINAL: arichbourg

How sweet that would have been, historically. Great AAR as always.

Thanks, glad to know it is being read.

Yes, sweet indeed, it would have been a very different post war world although I think, realistically, it would have taken something of a miracle for a liberal democracy to emerge from the chaos of Great War Russia. I suppose some sort of mild autocracy might well have been possible.

Alexander Kerensky was just in every way possibly the wrong man for the job of stopping the communists but someone like Lavr Kornilov might well have succeeded. I’d like to think that is what happened here.

In our game I think my opponent may have made mistake in launching such a massive attack to retake large swaths of the Middle East as the lessening of pressure on the Russian enabled them to slightly alleviate their horrible food situation.



This is off topic, but I just cannot resist telling a great story.

Back in the 1980s, one of my high school teachers told us about a party he had been at years earlier (I think it was in Berkeley). A stuck-up UC Berkeley professor (BP from here on out) was talking to an elderly White Russian (WR from here on out). BP was saying that he knew how Kerensky could have won the Russian Civil War. If Kerensky did A, everything would have been fine, or he could have done B and it would have been great. WR kept bringing up other points. If Kerensky did A, the Reds would have responded with W, or B wouldn't have worked because of Z. Finally, BP gets up on his high horse and says "I'm a UC Berkeley professor of history, what do YOU know about the subject?". To which WR says, "Clearly we haven't been introduced. I'm Kerensky!".


quote:

Kerensky

Great story. That professor missed a golden opportunity to keep his mouth shut and learn from one of the most significant historical figures of the 20th century instead of trying to debate him.

(in reply to Mike Dubost)
Post #: 38
Victory in the air - 9/12/2008 6:23:57 PM   
ulver

 

Posts: 527
Joined: 9/9/2001
From: Danmark, Europe
Status: offline 		As the long hot summer of 1916 draws to a close the German armies continue their relentless drive Eastwards. With both Odessa in the South and Smolensk in the North falling to the Germanic armies the Russian Republic is teetering on the edge. Yet another hammer blow to the nascent Russian democracy is the news that a large Russian army is cut off in the center and starving to death.

One question is asked again and again in Russia: What are our allies doing?

The allies are doing their best but find they are facing impregnably unbroken lines of fortifications on the Western front and impossible supply conditions in the Anatolian mountains. Starvation in bleak mountain passes or endless lines of barbed wire and machine guns; attempting to force their way though either seems destined to result in bloody failure.

Yet doing nothing will doom Russia and likely the Entente cause, and with it the cause of Democracy. Something must be done and there is one theater of operation that offers everything the allied generals dream of, plenty of space to maneuver, flanks to turn, a front impossible to cover in its entirety for the Central Powers. That front is Russia and a decision is made in the Allied supreme war council meeting in Paris:

Send the elite of the combined Western armies in to Russia. Support her directly in a way that has never been done before: With boots on the ground. Send every aircraft, every soldier, every gun and every shell to the Eastern front the rail net can carry.

And endless stream of trains begin making their way northward from the Middle East carrying British, French and Italian armies though Iraq and the Caucuses into the Ukraine to launch the first counteroffensive in the East.

Over the Eastern front the Russian soldiers have bitterly come to expect to see the skies darkened by German air force but in September 1916 they witness something vey different as the Royal Flying Corps, the Corpo Aeronautico Militare and the Service Aéronautique combined forces in the largest air offensive ever seen decimating and driving the stunned Imperial German Army Air Service from the skies.



Sep-Oct 1916: Breaking the back of the German air force?

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< Message edited by ulver -- 9/12/2008 6:29:34 PM >

(in reply to Lascar)
Post #: 39
Desperate straits in the North - 9/12/2008 9:03:22 PM   
ulver

 

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Joined: 9/9/2001
From: Danmark, Europe
Status: offline 		In the Artic North re-energized Russian armies supplied by French HQ’s try again and again to encircle the German forces occupying Smolensk and are repeatedly repulsed with heavy losses by well-prepared defenders. Even with plentiful French supplies the Russian army is simply no match for the might of the Imperial German army. High hopes for a counteroffensive in the North are cruelly dashed.

Unless something can be done soon the heroic commitment of the Russian people to democracy against all the odds may prove to have been in vain after all.



Sep-Oct 1916: The Russian army driven beyond its limits of endurance is simply falling apart.

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< Message edited by ulver -- 9/12/2008 9:05:12 PM >

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Post #: 40
RE: Desperate straits in the North - 9/12/2008 9:19:25 PM   
Naskra

 

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Joined: 3/12/2005
Status: offline 		Doesn't look too bad.  The readiness level of those Germans has got to be really low.

(in reply to ulver)
Post #: 41
Stalingrad - 9/12/2008 9:24:12 PM   
ulver

 

Posts: 527
Joined: 9/9/2001
From: Danmark, Europe
Status: offline 		In the South things initially looked equally grim. The remaining elite units of the Russian armies had broken into Austria in a food grab to ease the terror of starvation for hungry Russian women and children, for awhile they had succeeded but now found themselves cut off and dying from starvation themselves.

At the same time a southward combined German-Austrian drive sized Odessa on the Black sea – threatening the complete collapse of the Ukrainian front.

Just as things looks hopeless the Austrians find themselves under attack by the elite of the British army. Four A corps - the biggest, best armed and best trained corps in the world - obliterate Austrian level 4 trenches and capture Vinnitsa cutting off Odessa and the Southern spearhead of the Central Power advance

Just across the border the Rumanians take notice.


Sep-Oct 1916: Could this turn into the Great War version of Stalingrad?

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< Message edited by ulver -- 9/12/2008 9:46:06 PM >

(in reply to ulver)
Post #: 42
RE: Russan advance - 9/13/2008 4:51:10 AM   
Mike Dubost

 

Posts: 273
Joined: 8/24/2008
From: Sacramento, CA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lascar


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Dubost


quote:

ORIGINAL: ulver

quote:

ORIGINAL: arichbourg

How sweet that would have been, historically. Great AAR as always.

Thanks, glad to know it is being read.

Yes, sweet indeed, it would have been a very different post war world although I think, realistically, it would have taken something of a miracle for a liberal democracy to emerge from the chaos of Great War Russia. I suppose some sort of mild autocracy might well have been possible.

Alexander Kerensky was just in every way possibly the wrong man for the job of stopping the communists but someone like Lavr Kornilov might well have succeeded. I’d like to think that is what happened here.

In our game I think my opponent may have made mistake in launching such a massive attack to retake large swaths of the Middle East as the lessening of pressure on the Russian enabled them to slightly alleviate their horrible food situation.



This is off topic, but I just cannot resist telling a great story.

Back in the 1980s, one of my high school teachers told us about a party he had been at years earlier (I think it was in Berkeley). A stuck-up UC Berkeley professor (BP from here on out) was talking to an elderly White Russian (WR from here on out). BP was saying that he knew how Kerensky could have won the Russian Civil War. If Kerensky did A, everything would have been fine, or he could have done B and it would have been great. WR kept bringing up other points. If Kerensky did A, the Reds would have responded with W, or B wouldn't have worked because of Z. Finally, BP gets up on his high horse and says "I'm a UC Berkeley professor of history, what do YOU know about the subject?". To which WR says, "Clearly we haven't been introduced. I'm Kerensky!".


quote:

Kerensky

Great story. That professor missed a golden opportunity to keep his mouth shut and learn from one of the most significant historical figures of the 20th century instead of trying to debate him.


Thanks. I think it is such a great story that I have remembered it for just over 20 years. I am glad that others agree.

Indeed, the blow-hard did miss a great chance to learn. I sometimes think that meeting influential figures in history and talking to them must be included in Heaven.

(in reply to Lascar)
Post #: 43
Two years of War - 9/13/2008 4:34:42 PM   
ulver

 

Posts: 527
Joined: 9/9/2001
From: Danmark, Europe
Status: offline 		The war between the great powers of Europe has been bloody and inconclusive. Two terrible years of the Great War has produced plenty of killing but no killer blow for either side

Despite a number of what should have been fatal Entente mistakes - having huge Russian armies encircled, letting French HQ’s get trapped in Serbia, losing Salonika and the potential for a new Balkan front – the war remains as undecided as when the first shots were fired back in 1914. Somewhere close to four million casualties have failed to bring a resolution any closer

I can’t help feeling that the Central Powers would have won by now if this were anything close to a fair fight. Fortunately I believe it would take an even bigger idiot then me to throw away the overwhelming material advantages of the Entente so I remain confident of ultimate victory.

In retro respect I feel perhaps my biggest mistake was in stopping at the Dutch border instead of going for an all-out offensive through the Netherlands ignoring the political ramifications in an attempt to outflank him on the Western front.

I suspect both sides have a deep-felt aversion to the frontal attack and the mutual strategy has been dictated by a desire to wage a war of maneuvered and rapid advance, to hit the enemy in the flanks, to bypass strongpoints and hit the weakest link in the enemy alliance rather then seek victory though a bloody war of attrition.


Hard to image a game being closer

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< Message edited by ulver -- 9/15/2008 7:48:51 PM >

(in reply to Mike Dubost)
Post #: 44
RE: Two years of War - 9/13/2008 9:01:48 PM   
geoffreyg


Posts: 123
Joined: 4/1/2008
From: London
Status: offline 		The KuK and Imperial German home fronts are holding up reasonably well morale wise but shortages of essential raw materials are hampering the industrial protection of particularly aircraft.
Both general staffs are still hopeful that even democratic Russia's morale might eventually crack which would be somewhat helpful!

(in reply to ulver)
Post #: 45
Odessa pocket eliminated - 9/15/2008 7:55:34 PM   
ulver

 

Posts: 527
Joined: 9/9/2001
From: Danmark, Europe
Status: offline 		As 1916 draws to a close the British-lead counteroffensive in the southern Ukraine is a complete success. The Odessa pocket is cut in two and quickly disposed off with massive artillery barrages. German attempts to relive the pocket with gas attacks are shrugged off contemptuously by the elite formation of the British Empire. A number of German and Austrian A corps freezes to death with the few ragged survivors being led into captivity.


January 1917: Odessa surrenders.

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< Message edited by ulver -- 9/15/2008 8:00:33 PM >

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Post #: 46
RE: Odessa pocket eliminated - 9/15/2008 8:04:27 PM   
ulver

 

Posts: 527
Joined: 9/9/2001
From: Danmark, Europe
Status: offline 		In Anatolia the British score another minor success as Trabizon is recaptured putting additional physiological pressure on the Ottomans


January 1917: Trabizon changes hands for the 3rd time

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< Message edited by ulver -- 9/15/2008 8:05:30 PM >

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Post #: 47
RE: Odessa pocket eliminated - 9/15/2008 8:10:12 PM   
ulver

 

Posts: 527
Joined: 9/9/2001
From: Danmark, Europe
Status: offline 		However no amount of effort is enough to relive Smolensk – despite heavy fighting the German supply corridor remains open and time is running out for the Russian republic.


January 1917: Bitter winter fighting

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Post #: 48
Death of Russia - 9/15/2008 8:51:14 PM   
ulver

 

Posts: 527
Joined: 9/9/2001
From: Danmark, Europe
Status: offline 		In the end the pressure is simply to much for poor bleeding mother Russia


January 1917: Russia running out of rabbits to pull out of her hat.

As the clock runs out for mother Russia the French launches a series of desperate counterattacks on the Western fronts to no avail while the British launches seven submarines into the Baltic to strangle German production with some limited success.

All in vain; the single impulse winter turn simply does not leave enough time to effect any difference to Russian morale.

By Marts 1917 it is all over:



If we burn our wings
Flying too close to the sun
If the moment of glory
Is over before its begun
If the dream is won --
Though everything is lost
We will pay the price,
But we will not count the cost

When the dust has cleared
And victory denied
A summit too lofty
River a little too wide
If we keep our pride --
Though paradise is lost
We will pay the price,
But we will not count the cost


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< Message edited by ulver -- 9/16/2008 6:06:21 PM >

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Post #: 49
RE: Death of Russia - 9/16/2008 6:44:58 PM   
ulver

 

Posts: 527
Joined: 9/9/2001
From: Danmark, Europe
Status: offline 		As rumors of a Russian separate peace spreads like wildfire Western Intelligence learns from patriotic Russian generals that Germany intends to size the resources and gain of the Ukraine. Quite apart from the huge gap the collapse of the Russian army will leave in the Entente ranks a German occupation of the Ukraine will immeasurably add to the depleted Central Power stockpiles of grain and industrial raw material. The combined British-French expeditionary force in the Ukraine numbers close to a million men and the Russian collapse threaten to leave them stranded out of supply deep in hostile territory.

The first instinct of the allied governments is to use the warning from Russian sources to rush their forces to safety by rail but at the urging of Britain’s Russian Expert, master spy and man on the spot, Reilly, a daring alternative plan is considered: Don’t redraw, reinforce. Send enough forces to southern Russia to secure control of the vast resources of the Ukraine and defend them from the Germans. Presumably the Ukrainians doesn’t relish the thought of being plundered to feed Germany.

Allied forces are rushed into sizing critical locations in the Ukraine denying the Central Powers any possible source of supply behind the reformed allied front.


Mar-Apr 1917: Just because Russia gives up doesn’t mean her allies will.

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< Message edited by ulver -- 9/16/2008 6:45:57 PM >

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Post #: 50
Unintended consequences of Russian surrender - 9/18/2008 8:51:44 PM   
ulver

 

Posts: 527
Joined: 9/9/2001
From: Danmark, Europe
Status: offline 		The occupation of the Ukraine has a number of paradoxical effects. Even with her entire Arabian Empire under Entente occupation Ottoman moral have remained strong and it presumably gains a significant morale boost from the Defeat of Russia and the expansion of Ottoman national borders into the Crimean. However what initially appears a boon actually turns out to provoke a crisis for the ottomans as the allied occupation of what is now Ottoman cities affecting Ottoman morale takes effect. For the first time ottoman morale plummets to week as she suffer the loss of Sevastopol, Tbilisi, Batum and Navorossilsk. By occupying former Russian cities now ceded to the Ottomans the allies inflicted greater morale loss on the Ottomans then they did with their entire Syrian-Iraqi campaign.

Incredibly it turns out to have deleterious effects on German moral as well and more then cancels out the morale boost Germany gains from her victory over Russia. For the first time German moral is reduced to strong.


May-Jun 1917: The key to weakening Ottoman morale turns out to be the seizure of the Turkish fortress city of Sevastopol.

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< Message edited by ulver -- 9/19/2008 7:29:39 AM >

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Post #: 51
RE: Staving Russians - 9/19/2008 3:31:51 PM   
BK6583

 

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Status: offline 		"In any case with the new rules there is little point in leaving even nominal garrisons in border fortresses when redrawing."

Can you elaborate on this?

(in reply to ulver)
Post #: 52
Ukraine attack - 9/23/2008 6:11:55 PM   
ulver

 

Posts: 527
Joined: 9/9/2001
From: Danmark, Europe
Status: offline 		A series of unmitigated disasters was about to be unleashed on the hapless Entente leadership. In the south of the Ukrainian front a massive and totally unexpected assault obliterated the Entente front – potentially opening the way for a sustained drive into the Ukraine. I’ve never seen a front actually splintered like that before: The Southern sector is just – gone.


May-June 1917: Allied lines in the south obliterated. Are the Entente forces in Russia about to be wiped out?

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< Message edited by ulver -- 9/23/2008 6:19:42 PM >

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Post #: 53
All quite on the Italian front - 9/23/2008 6:19:42 PM   
ulver

 

Posts: 527
Joined: 9/9/2001
From: Danmark, Europe
Status: offline 		The real war losing disaster was about to hit on the Italian front where commitments elsewhere had led me to foolishly – and fatally – weakened the line of my most vulnerable alliance member. An error of judgment that was to have far-reaching and fatal consequences


May-June 1917: The quite before the storm breaks. A complacent Italian command foolishly believes the troops are safe in their level 4 trenches.

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< Message edited by ulver -- 9/23/2008 6:23:03 PM >

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Post #: 54
German air force defeated for good? - 9/23/2008 6:27:58 PM   
ulver

 

Posts: 527
Joined: 9/9/2001
From: Danmark, Europe
Status: offline 		After having suffered a series of crushing defeats in the air the German air force was wiped out. The complete absence of Central Powers airpower was yet another factor leading me to foolishly disregard intelligence about a planned German offensive.


Jul-Aug 1917: Lack of enemy air activity leads me to think he too will stay in his trenches.

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< Message edited by ulver -- 9/23/2008 6:29:31 PM >

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Post #: 55
Blitzkrieg over the Alps - 9/23/2008 8:43:14 PM   
ulver

 

Posts: 527
Joined: 9/9/2001
From: Danmark, Europe
Status: offline 		Achieving the wet dream of any commander – strategic surprise – vast forces of German assault troops supported by massed gas attacks completely crushes the Entente front lines and sweeps southwards virtually unopposed. The entente desperately rail and sealift every reinforcement in the rail net and merchant fleet can carry.


Jul-Aug 1917: The era of static trench warfare ends with the massive use of German assault troops.

It is all in vain as the German momentum proves unstoppable. To the extend any one attack can be said to have decided the great war this is it. The loss of Florence means the loss of Italy and with it any hope of victory.



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< Message edited by ulver -- 9/23/2008 9:08:31 PM >

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Post #: 56
RE: Blitzkrieg over the Alps - 9/24/2008 7:53:19 PM   
ulver

 

Posts: 527
Joined: 9/9/2001
From: Danmark, Europe
Status: offline 		Not that Italy went down without a fight – ferocious counterattacks actually managed to first surround Florence and then eliminate the German defenders causing them huge casualties. For a brief moment I actually thought Italy would be saved by my counterattack but alas all the self-sacrificing heroism would prove to be in vain as Italy were to succumb on the very day the United States entered the war on January 1918, far to late to do much good to the now doomed Entente cause.


Nov-Dec 1917: At least I’m trying
Nothing much was left of the birthplace of the renaissance after my 50+ strength artillery bombardment

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< Message edited by ulver -- 9/24/2008 10:28:06 PM >

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Post #: 57
Total Entente Defeat - 9/24/2008 8:12:56 PM   
ulver

 

Posts: 527
Joined: 9/9/2001
From: Danmark, Europe
Status: offline 		As the disastrous year of 1917 comes to an end it is clear that the Entente is a dead man walking. As if the humiliation of the Italian surrender isn’t enough the – unexpected – loss of Italy also means he gains control of all Italian controlled hexes in the Middle East. An oversight of such staging magnitude on my part as to wipe out all my gains there in the last 3 years of bitter and expensive advance. All the Ottoman resources are back in Central Power hands at one stroke and the substantial Entente armies in the Ukraine are cut off. More then a defeat it is a complete humiliation reveling the Entente player as a rank incompetent.



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(in reply to ulver)
Post #: 58
RE: Total Entente Defeat - 9/24/2008 8:56:23 PM   
geoffreyg


Posts: 123
Joined: 4/1/2008
From: London
Status: offline 		I don't think Ulver should be so hard on himself!
Although I was pleased with the success of my Italian offensive which I had always intended to follow on from the hoped for Russian surrender, I still think the TE are well positioned to give the CP a very testing 1918 and 1919.

(in reply to ulver)
Post #: 59
RE: Total Entente Defeat - 9/24/2008 9:21:49 PM   
hjaco

 

Posts: 872
Joined: 3/23/2007
Status: offline 		Its difficult to gauge your losses from the sideline but in victory point perspective those 113 victory points will be halved each following year but i can't remember if they will be halved once or twice?

In any case it should be difficult from CP to accumulate more victory points from here on where it seems the Entente should have a reasonable chance of knocking out the Ottomans with weak morale.

CP will have enough food but still not that many raw materials so it boils down to losses and current strength. The German cities in the Ruhr valley is rather close to the French border and thus I would judge that the situation victory points wise is not lost.

But uphill off course

(in reply to geoffreyg)
Post #: 60
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