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AG review...a step to order the the game if... - 9/9/2008 10:03:47 AM   
laska2k8


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As in Amchair General site the review is ...
quote:

Passed Inspection: The best operational wargame this reviewer has played this year.

Failed Basic: Replay value is not what it could be. Editor hobbled by lack of AI documentation.


another step to convince me to buy the game...but as owner of the almost complete series (from Normandy to Battlefront) please, please, plese add more scenario to the new engine or convert some old great ones.

thanks

max
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RE: AG review...a step to order the the game if... - 9/9/2008 12:19:46 PM   
Waffenamt

 

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They've recently provided AI documentation by way of a hands-on tutorial so now it's a matter of getting more scenarios. I'd also like to see the old ones converted, especially the Battlefront ones, which I skipped.

Regards

(in reply to laska2k8)
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RE: AG review...a step to order the the game if... - 9/9/2008 5:48:26 PM   
Toby42


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I want to purchase this title very bad, but I won't let myself pay $50 for one 16 turn scenario. I don't care how good it is!

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RE: AG review...a step to order the the game if... - 9/9/2008 6:04:52 PM   
Carl Myers

 

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It may be one scenario but because of the AO system, it is three different battles going on most of the time, east of Kharkov, south of Kharkov and around Barvenkovo. Both players are trying achieve the situation where it is one combined battle that is in the player's favor.

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RE: AG review...a step to order the the game if... - 9/10/2008 1:43:05 AM   
Gregor_SSG


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quote:

ORIGINAL: laska2k4

As in Amchair General site the review is ...
quote:

Passed Inspection: The best operational wargame this reviewer has played this year.

Failed Basic: Replay value is not what it could be. Editor hobbled by lack of AI documentation.


another step to convince me to buy the game...but as owner of the almost complete series (from Normandy to Battlefront) please, please, plese add more scenario to the new engine or convert some old great ones.

thanks

max


We're working on a great new version of 'Across the Dnepr' as we speak and lots of other stuff as well. We have released tutorials for both the AO and AI systems to help scenario creators. These things take time but there will be plenty of content for the new system.

Gregor

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for info and free scenarios.

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RE: AG review...a step to order the the game if... - 9/10/2008 7:49:58 AM   
Noakesy

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gregor_SSG
We're working on a great new version of 'Across the Dnepr' as we speak and lots of other stuff as well. We have released tutorials for both the AO and AI systems to help scenario creators. These things take time but there will be plenty of content for the new system.
Gregor


excellent news

(in reply to Gregor_SSG)
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RE: AG review...a step to order the the game if... - 9/10/2008 1:12:58 PM   
EisenHammer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gregor_SSG
We're working on a great new version of 'Across the Dnepr' as we speak and lots of other stuff as well. We have released tutorials for both the AO and AI systems to help scenario creators. These things take time but there will be plenty of content for the new system.
Gregor


Now that's some good news we need more scenarios. The Kharkov system is one of the best that I've ever played. And I played alot of wargames over the years.

(in reply to Gregor_SSG)
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RE: AG review...a step to order the the game if... - 9/10/2008 1:49:03 PM   
jmlima

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gregor_SSG

...
We're working on a great new version of 'Across the Dnepr' as we speak and lots of other stuff as well. We have released tutorials for both the AO and AI systems to help scenario creators. These things take time but there will be plenty of content for the new system.

Gregor


Thanks for reminding me of that. That was discussed in other thread and as far as I remember nobody denied the claims that the new version of 'Across the Dnepr' was to be an expansion pack for which it would be necessary to pay. Is this true? Or will it be released for free? Also, you state there will be plenty of new content, as before will it be generally available for free, or will it consist of expansion packs for which it will be necessary to pay?

< Message edited by jmlima -- 9/10/2008 1:50:12 PM >

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RE: AG review...a step to order the the game if... - 9/11/2008 7:54:59 AM   
Noakesy

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jmlima
Thanks for reminding me of that. That was discussed in other thread and as far as I remember nobody denied the claims that the new version of 'Across the Dnepr' was to be an expansion pack for which it would be necessary to pay. Is this true? Or will it be released for free? Also, you state there will be plenty of new content, as before will it be generally available for free, or will it consist of expansion packs for which it will be necessary to pay?


I think I saw on one of the threads that it would be for sale, but discounted maybe if you have the original game already.

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RE: AG review...a step to order the the game if... - 9/11/2008 1:20:36 PM   
jmlima

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Noakesy


quote:

ORIGINAL: jmlima
Thanks for reminding me of that. That was discussed in other thread and as far as I remember nobody denied the claims that the new version of 'Across the Dnepr' was to be an expansion pack for which it would be necessary to pay. Is this true? Or will it be released for free? Also, you state there will be plenty of new content, as before will it be generally available for free, or will it consist of expansion packs for which it will be necessary to pay?


I think I saw on one of the threads that it would be for sale, but discounted maybe if you have the original game already.



Yes , now , was that an official statement, or is that still the word of mouth going around?


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RE: AG review...a step to order the the game if... - 9/11/2008 2:42:04 PM   
Noakesy

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jmlima
Yes , now , was that an official statement, or is that still the word of mouth going around?


I think it was official (see Gregor's announcement on 19th July on this thread I think)...

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1792947&mpage=2&key=

...there was also a similar comment on the Run5 forum as I commented I'd lost my reference number for when I bought AtD, but I've found it now...

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RE: AG review...a step to order the the game if... - 9/11/2008 10:02:07 PM   
jmlima

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Noakesy
...
I think it was official (see Gregor's announcement on 19th July on this thread I think)...

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1792947&mpage=2&key=

...


Thanks. That clears my question, and my interest.

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RE: AG review...a step to order the the game if... - 9/11/2008 10:02:53 PM   
jmlima

 

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double post

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RE: AG review...a step to order the the game if... - 9/11/2008 10:43:39 PM   
Hertston


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quote:

Passed Inspection: The best operational wargame this reviewer has played this year.


I might find that more of a recommendation if I could think of any others released this year!

Like Treale, I keep trying to justify buying this but it's just too much for a one-trick pony at present. Maybe it will be in the Christmas sale.

(in reply to laska2k8)
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RE: AG review...a step to order the the game if... - 9/11/2008 11:28:00 PM   
e_barkmann


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..

< Message edited by Chris Merchant -- 9/11/2008 11:44:26 PM >


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RE: AG review...a step to order the the game if... - 9/12/2008 7:41:34 PM   
larizona55


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hertston

quote:

Passed Inspection: The best operational wargame this reviewer has played this year.


I might find that more of a recommendation if I could think of any others released this year!

Like Treale, I keep trying to justify buying this but it's just too much for a one-trick pony at present. Maybe it will be in the Christmas sale.



I guess I cast too wide of a net when I wrote "the best operational wargame". I was talking about boardgames and computer games. You are right, you have to go back a bit to find another operational computer wargame.

I certainly understand the issue about only one scenario, and putting my computer gamer hat on, I agree. But putting my boardgamer hat on, Kharkov is similar in price to a good board game, and stands up very well when compared to one.

Larry

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RE: AG review...a step to order the the game if... - 9/13/2008 12:22:51 AM   
jmlima

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: larizona55
...
I certainly understand the issue about only one scenario, and putting my computer gamer hat on, I agree. But putting my boardgamer hat on, Kharkov is similar in price to a good board game, and stands up very well when compared to one.

Larry


hmmm... Please allow me to take another look at this comparison.

Kharkov costs me £31 (since we are comparing to a physical item, I'll have to use the physical version)or USD 56 at today's rate, now let's compare this with some boardgames that fall under the same scope as the Kharkov game:

Beyond the Urals - USD 19.87
Borodino 41 - USD 25.43
Cherkassy Pocket - USD 37.87
Drive on Stalingrad - USD 39.87
Gotterdammerung - USD 21.87
Op Kremlin - USD 31.87
Op Spark - UDS 32.87
Red God of War - USD 19.87
Roads to Leningrad - USD 24.87
Stalingrad Pocket - USD 27.87
Triumphant Return - USD 21.87
Turning the Tables - USD 24.87
Velikye Luki - USD 21.87
Battles for the Ardennes - USD 33.87
FAB : The Bulge - USD 36.87
NUTS - USD 35.87
Screaming Eagles in Holland - USD 36.43
Burma : USD 42.87
Tiger of Malaya : USD 52.87

(prices collected from http://wargamedepot.com/catalog/index.php?osCsid=52d6d0c51933898c3820551d393cd5d7)

I left out OOP games, or games that by their scale completely dwarf the scope of Kharkov and that therefore would be redundant to compare, even on this list there are games that whilst covering a single operation provide a series of scenarios.

I do think that I could buy any of those boardgames before I was even close to buy Kharkov, not to mention that some of them would provide me more than one scenario / battle, hence more theoretical bang for the buck. Also, in general one can argue that a computer game has got an AI, what if I'm not interested and only PBEM? You could also argue that you get a scenario editor, but has we have all seen before , the inclusion is not per se a guarantee of any form that new scenarios will arrive, from the community.

All in all it's a simple discussion, and it's down to what one personally considers as value for money, and this is vastly different from person to person...


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RE: AG review...a step to order the the game if... - 9/14/2008 10:58:38 AM   
Howard7x


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I cant believe 6 months later and were still harping on over the price of this game and the number of scenarios. Unbelievable. Its been done to death. If this game came with 3 large scenarios people would still be moaning just like they did with BII. SSG have made huge steps forward with this engine. Should they have held off the release an extra year and made more scenarios? Or should they release it as soon as the engine and 1 scenario is complete so people can actually play the game then release scenarios afterwards? I dunno. I can see people being split down the middle. As for the price, well id tend to agree £31 was too much for 1 scenario imo but so far im getting my moneys worth so i dont see the point in comparing it/complaining about it. No one is ever going to agree on this subject. EVER!

And going on the amount of times that i and im sure many other people have spent more than £30 on a game only to find it to be a huge pile of **** at least this game actually plays brilliantly.



< Message edited by Howard7x -- 9/14/2008 11:01:49 AM >


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RE: AG review...a step to order the the game if... - 9/14/2008 12:25:43 PM   
iberian


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What I think many fail to understand is that a scenario from SSG it's not a simple hack job. It's an accurate Order of Battle, finely researched. It's an artistically depicted historical map. It's an artificial intelligence system adapted for the scenario, that actually tests the player skills. It's a set of objectives with balanced play for both sides. Cutting long stories short, it's hard work.

I'd rather have a single scenario with all the above, that two dozen scenarios with fictional or plain wrong OOB's, with maps based on green and brown hexes, hacked up jobs done to look like the system has "value for money", as it happens with many other products.

Even if some would not agree, and would prefer plenty of amateur fictional scenarios instead of quality, I'm forced to remember everybody that nobody is pointing a gun to our collective heads to force us to buy the game. If you want quality, buy it. You won't regreat it.

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RE: AG review...a step to order the the game if... - 9/14/2008 11:55:54 PM   
JMass


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I preferred to buy WW2: Road to Victory rather than Kharkov: Disaster on the Donets , now I think I have made a big mistake and I'll buy Kharkov but preferably in bundle with Across the Dnepr... I can wait!


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RE: AG review...a step to order the the game if... - 9/15/2008 10:58:35 AM   
jmlima

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Howard7x

I cant believe 6 months later and were still harping on over the price of this game and the number of scenarios. ...



Since you replied to my message, I imagined you would be commenting on what I wrote. I was surprised that you started by discussing the number of scenarios , when I was talking about the continuous comparison with boardgame prices... Was that aimed at myself or just a general comment?

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RE: AG review...a step to order the the game if... - 9/15/2008 11:01:36 AM   
jmlima

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: iberian

... It's an artificial intelligence system adapted for the scenario, that actually tests the player skills. ...


I would actually like to see more on the specifics of the AI being tailored for the Kharkov battle, am I missing something or will the AI then require to be tweaked for each different battle? Is that tweaking possible in the editors provided?

Or are you talking about things like setting paths for the AI to follow and so on?

(in reply to iberian)
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RE: AG review...a step to order the the game if... - 9/15/2008 12:09:39 PM   
e_barkmann


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Behold AI tweaking heaven.



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RE: AG review...a step to order the the game if... - 9/15/2008 1:33:49 PM   
JudgeDredd


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Howard7x

I cant believe 6 months later and were still harping on over the price of this game and the number of scenarios. Unbelievable. Its been done to death. If this game came with 3 large scenarios people would still be moaning just like they did with BII. SSG have made huge steps forward with this engine. Should they have held off the release an extra year and made more scenarios? Or should they release it as soon as the engine and 1 scenario is complete so people can actually play the game then release scenarios afterwards? I dunno. I can see people being split down the middle. As for the price, well id tend to agree £31 was too much for 1 scenario imo but so far im getting my moneys worth so i dont see the point in comparing it/complaining about it. No one is ever going to agree on this subject. EVER!

And going on the amount of times that i and im sure many other people have spent more than £30 on a game only to find it to be a huge pile of **** at least this game actually plays brilliantly.



I think you're missing the point.

It isn't whinging for whinging sake and it certainly isn't to get people "on board" and agree....the point of discussing it is to tell the developers and the publishers that the price point and content do not match.

I bought Kharkov and thought it was a complete waste of money. As much as I want to give them another chance, I'm not doing so at the current price.

It's directed solely at them...no one else...if you bought it and you enjoy it, excellent...no-one is trying to make you hate it.

It's about the consumer telling the supplier about the seeming error of their ways. You have exactly the same right. You can keep popping in every now and again telling people how good it is. You never know, the devs and publishers might hear your voice before they hear that of the nay-sayers.

Matrix know fine and well how this game has sold. They will be able to determine if it was worth it or not.

If the game didn't sell well and people didn't post their reasons, then Matrix would not have a clue why it didn't sell.

As it is, people are letting them know.

And to reiterate, in case they didn't hear...for me (not you or anyone else....me) the price point and content are not worth the purchase...which is £40 ($80)for me!

To be quite frank...I think if Matrix took a gamble and dropped $10 off this game, it would fly. But they aren't going to, so that's a moot point.

And by the way, there are far more "lurkers" on here whinging about content and price than there are people "bigging" the game up. Your time would be better spent starting a thread about how good the game is and pointing out the reasons why a purchase is required...because as it is, you're just wasting your time whinging about people whinging...go figure.

< Message edited by JudgeDredd -- 9/15/2008 1:38:18 PM >

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RE: AG review...a step to order the the game if... - 9/15/2008 2:02:45 PM   
e_barkmann


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Hmm the game costs less than a full tank of petrol.

Driving is overrated anyway

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RE: AG review...a step to order the the game if... - 9/15/2008 3:24:47 PM   
jmlima

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris Merchant

Behold AI tweaking heaven.




Thanks for that. I was in doubt if my fellow Iberian up there was discussing that (which is what I called setting paths for the AI), or some ubber-duper AI that was engineered specifically for Kharkov. It seems it's a standard engine that is programmed for each scenario, pretty much in the same style you can do with any Pz Campaigns, Modern Campaigns, TOAW and others out there. It's good to read that it's well done on the released game, since it's actually a vital part of any PC game, most people don't realize that the vast majority of the gamers still play mostly against the AI.

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RE: AG review...a step to order the the game if... - 9/15/2008 5:10:22 PM   
Frank.Costanzo

 

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In response to jmlima's computer game & board game comparison


Interesting viewpoint on game comparisons. I never thought anyone would be comparing computer games to board games. I still enjoy boardgames, although some of the ones I have been eyeing are more in the $100+ cost range. I am enjoying Kharkov, and having the ability to to play a turn or too at my leisure, against a very challanging AI is aslo very appealing to me.

< Message edited by Frank.Costanzo -- 9/15/2008 5:15:24 PM >

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RE: AG review...a step to order the the game if... - 9/15/2008 5:57:37 PM   
Frank.Costanzo

 

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[/quote]I think you're missing the point.

It isn't whinging for whinging sake and it certainly isn't to get people "on board" and agree....the point of discussing it is to tell the developers and the publishers that the price point and content do not match.

I bought Kharkov and thought it was a complete waste of money. As much as I want to give them another chance, I'm not doing so at the current price.

It's directed solely at them...no one else...if you bought it and you enjoy it, excellent...no-one is trying to make you hate it.

It's about the consumer telling the supplier about the seeming error of their ways. You have exactly the same right. You can keep popping in every now and again telling people how good it is. You never know, the devs and publishers might hear your voice before they hear that of the nay-sayers.

Matrix know fine and well how this game has sold. They will be able to determine if it was worth it or not.

If the game didn't sell well and people didn't post their reasons, then Matrix would not have a clue why it didn't sell.

As it is, people are letting them know.

And to reiterate, in case they didn't hear...for me (not you or anyone else....me) the price point and content are not worth the purchase...which is £40 ($80)for me!

To be quite frank...I think if Matrix took a gamble and dropped $10 off this game, it would fly. But they aren't going to, so that's a moot point.

And by the way, there are far more "lurkers" on here whinging about content and price than there are people "bigging" the game up. Your time would be better spent starting a thread about how good the game is and pointing out the reasons why a purchase is required...because as it is, you're just wasting your time whinging about people whinging...go figure.
[/quote]


You definitly have very strong opinions across the board, game content, pricing. I don't agree with you on game content, and I am not sure how the overseas pricing works. Seems your point is you are making your criticisms to Matrix for greater good. You say you do not want to effect anyones positive viewpoint on the game, and that is good and fine. One thing I would like to point out is your opinions do effect people who may be happy with the way the game system is progressing. You have every right to express your opinions, and I like to hear everyones viewpoint, but lets not be under the illusion that it can only effect certain people.

My personal opinion is I am really enjoying the game. I am not "bigging" up the game, because I think, and as others have posted, that content speaks for itself. I am not a professional game reviewer, but I have played wargames for a long time, and I know what I like.






< Message edited by Frank.Costanzo -- 9/15/2008 6:06:59 PM >

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Post #: 28
RE: AG review...a step to order the the game if... - 9/15/2008 6:04:54 PM   
Peter Fisla


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris Merchant

Behold AI tweaking heaven.





Cool stuff, thanks Chris! I just need some free time to have some with with Kharkov AI!

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Post #: 29
RE: AG review...a step to order the the game if... - 9/16/2008 2:49:50 PM   
JudgeDredd


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Frank.Costanzo

quote:

I think you're missing the point.

It isn't whinging for whinging sake and it certainly isn't to get people "on board" and agree....the point of discussing it is to tell the developers and the publishers that the price point and content do not match.

I bought Kharkov and thought it was a complete waste of money. As much as I want to give them another chance, I'm not doing so at the current price.

It's directed solely at them...no one else...if you bought it and you enjoy it, excellent...no-one is trying to make you hate it.

It's about the consumer telling the supplier about the seeming error of their ways. You have exactly the same right. You can keep popping in every now and again telling people how good it is. You never know, the devs and publishers might hear your voice before they hear that of the nay-sayers.

Matrix know fine and well how this game has sold. They will be able to determine if it was worth it or not.

If the game didn't sell well and people didn't post their reasons, then Matrix would not have a clue why it didn't sell.

As it is, people are letting them know.

And to reiterate, in case they didn't hear...for me (not you or anyone else....me) the price point and content are not worth the purchase...which is £40 ($80)for me!

To be quite frank...I think if Matrix took a gamble and dropped $10 off this game, it would fly. But they aren't going to, so that's a moot point.

And by the way, there are far more "lurkers" on here whinging about content and price than there are people "bigging" the game up. Your time would be better spent starting a thread about how good the game is and pointing out the reasons why a purchase is required...because as it is, you're just wasting your time whinging about people whinging...go figure.


You definitly have very strong opinions across the board, game content, pricing. I don't agree with you on game content, and I am not sure how the overseas pricing works. Seems your point is you are making your criticisms to Matrix for greater good. You say you do not want to effect anyones positive viewpoint on the game, and that is good and fine. One thing I would like to point out is your opinions do effect people who may be happy with the way the game system is progressing. You have every right to express your opinions, and I like to hear everyones viewpoint, but lets not be under the illusion that it can only effect certain people.

My personal opinion is I am really enjoying the game. I am not "bigging" up the game, because I think, and as others have posted, that content speaks for itself. I am not a professional game reviewer, but I have played wargames for a long time, and I know what I like.


Not sure how my opinion affects people who are enjoying the game or are happy with the engine going the way it does. As far as I can evaluate, my opinion on the game being too expensive for one 16 turn scenario would possibly affect people who were going to lay out the money for the game but then discover, through my post, that it's only got one scenario and it's only 16 turns long and it's price is over £40.

However, I am, as you pointed out, purely trying to tell devs and publishers that should they have reduced the price of this item, it may would have sold better....I know that for an absolute fact...because I would've purchased it.

Also, as I mentioned, there seem to be more people on here complaining about the price and content than there are suggesting the game is magnificent. Kind of odd.

(in reply to Frank.Costanzo)
Post #: 30
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