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Boardame Conversions - 9/21/2008 12:39:21 PM

PunkReaper

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Reading the thread : Suggestions for New games. I got to wondering why more boardgames aren't converted to computer games. Instead of the endless stream of FPS and sport sims why don't developers dlve into the realm of board games. As a non programmer I would have thought that much of the work had already been done, (board graphics, rules) leaving more time for the creation of a good AI. A look at Boardgamegeek shows a number of very popular games that could be converted. For example, Twilight Struggle, Hannibal: Rome vs Carthage, Napoleon at War, War of the Ring to name a few. It seems to me that developers try to develop the more complex monster games such as World in Flames or dare I say Empire in Arms leaving the simpler games which I would of thought would have a shorter development time and therefore more profitability.
Ok now you can all gently put me right......note the word gently.....I know people.

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RE: Boardame Conversions - 9/21/2008 4:34:24 PM

sabre1

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+1 PR!

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RE: Boardame Conversions - 9/21/2008 6:31:39 PM

GJK

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Good question and I've often wondered the same. I'm sure that copyright and licensing is part of it but otherwise we know that Avalon Hill tried this back in the 90's with moderate success. I can't, offhand, think of many others.

There's been some PC game to boardgame conversions (interestingly enough). Doom the boardgame, Civilization the boardgame come to mind right away.

I'm tinkering around with Visual Basic and always thought that a great project would be to convert something like Patton's Best to the PC. All the AI is there (in the charts), it just needs to be coded up to be presented to the player. I wonder, however, if it would still be as enjoyable? Something about actually rolling the dice and looking up the results and applying them on the board.

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RE: Boardame Conversions - 9/21/2008 7:03:19 PM

Jeffrey H.

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Well, I don't use them but Aide de Camp, Vassal and Cyberboard at least partially fill that void. I wish some board games were converted as well. In fact, like GJK, I'm planning on actaully trying to do one to see what's involved. I'll try to wiggle my way around the whole copywrite thing, which I have a plan for how I will go about it.

Not for $$$ but just to see if I can do it and if so, maybe for enough money to pay for the hobby.

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RE: Boardame Conversions - 9/21/2008 7:07:52 PM

andym

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I think it all boils down to one thing $$$$$ and ��,theres too small a market for these games however desirable it is to have them ported over to the PC.There are loads of game si would love to see become electrified.

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RE: Boardame Conversions - 9/21/2008 7:54:45 PM

noxious

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Actually, Civilization is board game converted to PC and then re-converted to boardgame : there are two very different Civilization boardgames, without mentioning at least two separate editions of the original (vanilla and Advanced)

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RE: Boardame Conversions - 9/21/2008 8:05:49 PM

Kuokkanen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Punk Reaper

Ok now you can all gently put me right......note the word gently.....I know people.

I know few boardgames that have been converted to computers. I'm pretty sure there are plenty more I don't know about. But the ones I know and come to mind right now:
Classic BattleTech -> MechForce (Amiga), MegaMek (Java)
Ticket to ride
(Advanced) Squad Leader
Chess & other classic games

Anything else?

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RE: Boardame Conversions - 9/21/2008 8:53:37 PM

andym

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Car Wars and GEV /OGRE.

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RE: Boardame Conversions - 9/21/2008 9:35:15 PM

CaptDave

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Pacific War was converted, of course, and then morphed into War in the Pacific. Also, there is an electronic version of Third Reich, although DOS-based and now not legally available (it's on one of the abandonware sites, but technically those are illegal downloads).

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RE: Boardame Conversions - 9/21/2008 10:03:07 PM

Sarge

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quote:

Boardame Conversions

Why ?

I like the tangible aspect of board games, anyone that is an veteran of both PC n� board will testify something is lost in the transition .

Instituting such aspects as FOW and AI would take major rule changes which in most titles especially the tactical ones would end up add nothing except a broken rule set .

PS: ASL board and the PC version only share the name

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RE: Boardame Conversions - 9/21/2008 10:12:34 PM

Jeffrey H.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge

quote:

Boardame Conversions

Why ?

I like the tangible aspect of board games, anyone that is an veteran of both PC n� board will testify something is lost in the transition .

Instituting such aspects as FOW and AI would take major rule changes which in most titles especially the tactical ones would end up add nothing except a broken rule set .

PS: ASL board and the PC version only share the name

It's true, the tangible and social elements of boardgaming cannot really be ported, although a decent arguement can be made for the social elements being roughly equivalent.

But, how many times in your boardgaming days/nights when you are muddling through rules and charts to you say to yourself "this would be perfect for a computer to do" ? For me that's a very frequent occurance.

Plus, sad to say, it's almost impossible to find opponents for certain games that were part of our past, that were a lot of fun in their time. I guess I'd like to have that fun again even though I I'll almost never find an opponent. That's motivation enough for me personally.

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RE: Boardame Conversions - 9/21/2008 11:04:02 PM

Sarge

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffrey H.
Plus, sad to say, it's almost impossible to find opponents for certain games that were part of our past, that were a lot of fun in their time. I guess I'd like to have that fun again even though I I'll almost never find an opponent. That's motivation enough for me personally.

I gave up about 12yrs ago trying to find opponents and started cloning my own

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RE: Boardame Conversions - 9/22/2008 1:15:56 AM

Twotribes

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Decision games has Computer War In Europe. Has no AI at all. A new Window version is due out first of the month. Used to be a free download then they realized people would pay for it.

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Post #: 13

RE: Boardame Conversions - 9/22/2008 1:34:40 AM

Jeffrey H.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffrey H.
Plus, sad to say, it's almost impossible to find opponents for certain games that were part of our past, that were a lot of fun in their time. I guess I'd like to have that fun again even though I I'll almost never find an opponent. That's motivation enough for me personally.

I gave up about 12yrs ago trying to find opponents and started cloning my own

Heh, that's a path many a gamer has taken.

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RE: Boardame Conversions - 9/22/2008 6:38:31 AM

sysrkm

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Hi andy,

When were Car Wars and OGRE/GEV done? I seemed to have a faint memory of a single player CarWars game that SJG approved, but nothing like GEV or OGRE...

Regards,

Rob

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RE: Boardame Conversions - 9/22/2008 6:43:35 AM

sysrkm

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Hello Mr. Kuokkanen,

I know of at least one: It was not licensed, but Star Fleet Battles was converted into StarFleet Command and StarFleet Command II. I was fortunate enough to be on an alpha test team for ADG for SFB and a beta tester for SFC.

StarFleet Command, SFC II and SFCII: Orion Pirates were both DAMM good games. But I'm sure that licensing issues with ADG (Steven V. Cole) cut it's life too short.

Regards,

Rob

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RE: Boardame Conversions - 9/22/2008 10:56:38 AM

PunkReaper

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quote:

I gave up about 12yrs ago trying to find opponents and started cloning my own

Sadly clones grow up and leave home as I am findig today. My last clone has moved away to university today leaving me with a book shelf full of games. Wife wont agree to have more just to satisfy my gaming needs.

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RE: Boardame Conversions - 9/22/2008 3:34:50 PM

andym

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sysrkm

Hi andy,

When were Car Wars and OGRE/GEV done? I seemed to have a faint memory of a single player CarWars game that SJG approved, but nothing like GEV or OGRE...

Regards,

Rob

They werent done i was just saying that they should be done.They are 3 of the most underrated games made in my opinion.

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RE: Boardame Conversions - 9/22/2008 8:23:57 PM

Kuokkanen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge

quote:

Boardame Conversions

Why ?

I like the tangible aspect of board games, anyone that is an veteran of both PC n� board will testify something is lost in the transition .

Ever had trouble finding opponent for board game? Ever tried to play one over Internet?

quote:

Instituting such aspects as FOW and AI would take major rule changes which in most titles especially the tactical ones would end up add nothing except a broken rule set .

Oh come on! MegaMek works just fine by BattleTech Master Rules (old version) and Total Warfare!
...
So command detonate mines and point blank fire don't work yet, but I haven't used those outside computers either...

quote:

PS: ASL board and the PC version only share the name

And someone on these forums said that ASL rulebook is required to play the computer version...

quote:

StarFleet Command, SFC II and SFCII: Orion Pirates were both DAMM good games.

Amen! But there are some SFB veterans (which I'm not), who want more faithful version of it.

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RE: Boardame Conversions - 9/22/2008 11:24:13 PM

Sarge

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Matti Kuokkanen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge
I like the tangible aspect of board games, anyone that is an veteran of both PC n� board will testify something is lost in the transition .

Ever had trouble finding opponent for board game? Ever tried to play one over Internet?

Yes and Yes

Played ASL and GMT�s CCE over the internet do they count ?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Matti Kuokkanen

quote:

PS: ASL board and the PC version only share the name

And someone on these forums said that ASL rulebook is required to play the computer version�

I was commenting on :

quote:

ORIGINAL: Matti Kuokkanen

I know few boardgames that have been converted to computers. I'm pretty sure there are plenty more I don't know about. But the ones I know and come to mind right now:
Classic BattleTech -> MechForce (Amiga), MegaMek (Java)
Ticket to ride
(Advanced) Squad Leader
Chess & other classic games

Anything else?

(Advanced) Squad Leader was hardly the PC version of ASL

< Message edited by Sarge -- 9/22/2008 11:25:57 PM >

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RE: Boardame Conversions - 9/23/2008 12:33:07 AM

alaric318

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well, greetings, in fact you can surf to boardgamegeek list given, in fact there are some boardgame conversions, i hope you enjoy it...

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/8323

best regards,

murat30.

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RE: Boardame Conversions - 9/23/2008 4:06:49 AM

Mike Dubost

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quote:

ORIGINAL: andym

quote:

ORIGINAL: sysrkm

Hi andy,

When were Car Wars and OGRE/GEV done? I seemed to have a faint memory of a single player CarWars game that SJG approved, but nothing like GEV or OGRE...

Regards,

Rob

They werent done i was just saying that they should be done.They are 3 of the most underrated games made in my opinion.

Actually, OGRE was converted for the Apple. One of my amusing memories from a High School graduation party 21 years ago is watching a drunk person try to play OGRE when he no longer had the coordination to use the mouse.

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Post #: 22

RE: Boardame Conversions - 9/23/2008 5:36:04 AM

Fred98

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quote:

ORIGINAL: andym

I think it all boils down to one thing $$$$$ and ��, theres too small a market for these games

Distribution of board games requires lots of logistics. Distribution of a PC game, especialy by digital download, requires few logistics.

If you only have a small market it makes sense to distribute by digital download instead of distribution by printing press, planes, trains and trucks.

-

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RE: Boardame Conversions - 9/23/2008 8:56:50 PM

PBI

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The man stumbling block to a successful port is the AI. Most AI is not really that great, though can provide some enjoyment learning how to beat it. I think what many wargamers want is something along the lines of how Decision Games is handling War in Europe: their "game" is a player-aid that does the number crunching, and rule enforcement, but requires another human opponent to make it work. Unfortunately, seling that model to the larger publishers seems to be a losing proposition, though it's a model I love, especially now that I no longer have the space to set up a game and leave it set up.

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RE: Boardame Conversions - 9/23/2008 9:29:56 PM

Kuokkanen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Murat30

well, greetings, in fact you can surf to boardgamegeek list given, in fact there are some boardgame conversions, i hope you enjoy it...

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/8323

Woohoo! BattleTech page has lots of Unseen, and it mentions MegaMek! But it's missing ASL

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RE: Boardame Conversions - 9/23/2008 10:58:57 PM

GJK

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Matti Kuokkanen
But it's missing ASL

There is no "ASL" computer game conversion. Hasbro released "Squad Leader" which shared the name only (as someone mentioned earlier). VASL is an ASL utility that lets you play ASL over the internet (or via pbem) but it is not a computer game.

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RE: Boardame Conversions - 9/23/2008 11:46:50 PM

BoredStiff

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

Distribution of board games requires lots of logistics. Distribution of a PC game, especialy by digital download, requires few logistics.

If you only have a small market it makes sense to distribute by digital download instead of distribution by printing press, planes, trains and trucks.

Although I have no personal experience in the operation of a software developer/publisher, I would beg to differ, judging by everything I've seen, heard and read over the years.

At first glance, it may seem that digital downloads are the easiest way to distribute games, but there seem to be some added headaches associated with it.

For starters, there's the maintenance of the registration records. Customers will lose their registration numbers and an archive has to be maintained to be able to retrieve them.

Then there's the upkeep of the download servers themselves. I don't know what all there's involved in this, but there have been issues in this regard when people were not able to download their games, usually after a new release.

Then there's the question of how customers who have downloaded their games should go about selling them at some point in the future, if they so desire. This is another aspect of downloaded games in which the customer will come knocking on the distributors door for advice and something the distributor will have to deal with, even if it's only a matter of answering emails or forum questions.
There are currently two topics (if I recall correctly) in this forum dealing exactly with this issue, where customers want to know how to best go about selling their downloaded games, whether it's even OK for them to do so, etc.

Now, let me tell you what in my opinion is the real reason why we even have digital downloads.

It is largely nothing more than a desire by the distributor to capitalize on the impulse-buyer market. Digital downloads are the software equivalent of the supermarket checkout counter candy and magazine racks.

Granted, the impulse buyer gets the benefit of near-instant gratification and about $10 off the price, but other than that, it's a losing proposition for the buyer, because of the above-stated reasons.

And the $10 off is only because the distributor does not have to physically ship the game. From the distributors viewpoint, it doesn't matter whether their customers download or request a hard copy shipment, because in the case of the latter, shipping costs will simply be charged to the customer.

The distributor gains financially from digital downloads, by capturing the impulse-buyer market, but the added services mentioned above will have to be provided, which is not the case for physical shipment.
So the distributor will offer digital downloads if he feels the added impulse-driven sales will more than pay for the above-mentioned future hassles associated with it. If/when the distributor feels this is no longer the case, digital downloads will no longer be offered.

In my opinion then, the easiest, cheapset and most headache-free mode of distributing games, from the point of view of a developer/distributor, is to simply ship the games in a jewel case, with a pdf manual on the CD. Some developers/distribuotrs might wish to go one step fancier and provide a plastic DVD-type case with a small printed manual, but that is not necessary, just perhaps an option.

But the notion that digital downloads are somehow making the distributor's life easier, is false, imo. It is largely just a another marketing option.

Edit: Kind of a longwinded post above, but all I'm saying is that with digital downloads. the distributor has future issues to deal with, such as maintaining registration records for all their customers who downloaded, maintaining servers and dealing with any number of future enquiries.
With physical shipments, otoh, once the game is out the door, it's gone.

< Message edited by BoredStiff -- 9/24/2008 12:48:34 AM >

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Post #: 27

RE: Boardame Conversions - 9/24/2008 12:28:30 AM

alaric318

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GJK

quote:

ORIGINAL: Matti Kuokkanen
But it's missing ASL

There is no "ASL" computer game conversion. Hasbro released "Squad Leader" which shared the name only (as someone mentioned earlier). VASL is an ASL utility that lets you play ASL over the internet (or via pbem) but it is not a computer game.

well, there are a project on sourceforge based on squad leader, i have not try-ed it and is a work in progress, only 1 developer, as far as i know but can turn in a good version, you can download and see what is done, do not know if there are other projects about it on sourceforge, here goes the download page link...

http://sourceforge.net/projects/jsquadleader/

enjoy!,

with best regards,

murat30.

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Post #: 28

RE: Boardame Conversions - 9/24/2008 12:52:10 AM

GJK

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Murat30

well, there are a project on sourceforge based on squad leader, i have not try-ed it and is a work in progress, only 1 developer, as far as i know but can turn in a good version, you can download and see what is done, do not know if there are other projects about it on sourceforge, here goes the download page link...

http://sourceforge.net/projects/jsquadleader/

enjoy!,

with best regards,

murat30.

I tried that probably a year ago, not sure if it's been updated since then. It is based on Squad Leader and not ASL as noted.

Probably the closest ASL to computer game conversion that I've seen would be one that the name escapes me at the moment...grr, hate that. Another one is Lars Thurings "JASL". Both are ambitious projects but hardly completed and in my case at least, I found them a bit of a bore to play. Nothing beats the human interaction of a ftf (or even a VASL w/mic) game.

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Post #: 29

RE: Boardame Conversions - 9/25/2008 7:47:11 PM

Kuokkanen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GJK

quote:

ORIGINAL: Matti Kuokkanen
But it's missing ASL

There is no "ASL" computer game conversion. Hasbro released "Squad Leader" which shared the name only (as someone mentioned earlier). VASL is an ASL utility that lets you play ASL over the internet (or via pbem) but it is not a computer game.