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WITP Alternative with Less Micromanagement? - 9/23/2008 9:22:24 AM   
Sarconix

 

Posts: 86
Joined: 9/23/2008
From: Atlanta, GA
Status: offline 		Hey folks,

I'm a long time reader, first time poster. I have a "simple" question: what is a good alternative to WITP that has less micromanagement?

To elaborate: I have been reading about WITP, and I am fascinated with the concept. Here we have the whole Pacific War in a computer game. I can tell just about everyone here loves it: this is a forum with over half a million posts on one game. Only the following of Hearts of Iron 2 over at Paradox can compare. I am particularly impressed with the WITP AARs that go on for months, especially the very clever Hibiki story.

But... I think this is too much for me. I tried WITP, mostly just the tutorial to be honest, and I found the whole thing to be overwhelming. Some have said in other posts that the learning cliff is surmountable, and I believe it. What I don't think I can get past is the micromanagement: the game seems to require a huge investment of time and attention that I simply can't afford, though I wish I could! To be somewhat more precise, the real "action" of the tutorial should have taken perhaps an hour to play, not three hours (or more).

Which brings me back to the question. I like the concept and setting of WITP, i.e. the whole Pacific War under your control, but is there a higher-level and faster-paced game that does the same concept justice? I am not looking for an RTS here; for example, the pace of Civilization 4 seems about right, where you can complete a decent campaign in 20 hours or so. Some titles I have looked into:

  • There is a Civ 4 mod that covers the Pacific War (part of Road to War), but that is far too abstract. I want real ships, planes, and troops, in real numbers.

  • Heart of Iron 2 seems to do a decent job with the scope and pace, but the naval and naval aviation facets of the game are not that fleshed out. (I think it calls the USS Lexington a Yorktown-class ship!) Perhaps there is a mod that does a better job?

  • Carriers at War (CAW), also from Matrix like WITP, looks promising, though perhaps too fast and limited in its scope: it has short missions, not campaigns. I will probably buy it, though: as someone else here said, it looks like a fun game of "checkers" compared to WITP "chess."

  • Pacific General from 1997 is interesting, but is too tactical and (again) abstract.

  • It may also be that Uncommon Valor (UV) is the right game, but I am pretty sure that it is really not that much simpler or faster than WITP. That being said, UV does seem to offer more short campaigns. Perhaps there is a mod for WITP or UV that simplifies it in the way I am thinking?

So perhaps you can tell I have been giving this some thought! That being said, I won't be surprised that such a game does not exist. However, I decided I should check in with the experts here to be sure.Of course, if this was already covered in another thread, just point me in the right direction. I checked, but I may have missed something in the 32,000 threads.

Thanks for any suggestions!
Post #: 1
RE: WITP Alternative with Less Micromanagement? - 9/23/2008 9:59:22 AM   
goodboyladdie


Posts: 3469
Joined: 11/18/2005
From: Rendlesham, Suffolk
Status: offline 		There is another thread at the moment where the poster talks about his own faltering first steps and how rewarding the game is once you get over the first hurdles. Read and be inspired. It really is the best game I have ever played. I can hardly wait for AE (or Eagle Day to Bombing the Reich).

Here is the link to the thread... http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1563206

< Message edited by goodboyladdie -- 9/23/2008 10:02:13 AM >

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RE: WITP Alternative with Less Micromanagement? - 9/23/2008 10:00:51 AM   
Frido1207

 

Posts: 456
Joined: 11/16/2006
From: Lower Saxony, Germany
Status: offline 		Not sure if this is the one you´re looking for,
but i´m waiting for this:
http://www.battlefront.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=207&Itemid=301

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RE: WITP Alternative with Less Micromanagement? - 9/23/2008 11:19:07 AM   
Elouda

 

Posts: 183
Joined: 2/16/2008
From: Helsinki, Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarconix
  • Heart of Iron 2 seems to do a decent job with the scope and pace, but the naval and naval aviation facets of the game are not that fleshed out. (I think it calls the USS Lexington a Yorktown-class ship!) Perhaps there is a mod that does a better job?


    • The C.O.R.E. modification does a wonderful job of bringing the game closer to reality in my opinion (particularly naval warfare). Its still not perfect, but far better than stock HoI2. Theres a beta ongoing for the next release, 0.4, which is due out in a few months - I'd wait for it instead of getting the current one, as its not quite complete.

    http://www.terranova.dk/viewforum.php?f=3

    Of course, you could wait for Hearts of Iron 3...


    Another game due out in the next months in Supremacy at Sea, by NWS - their games are generally very good, if a little rough in terms of graphics. Definately the next thing on my buy list.

    http://forums.navalwarfare.org/showthread.php?t=4

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    RE: WITP Alternative with Less Micromanagement? - 9/23/2008 7:53:16 PM   
    LargeSlowTarget


    Posts: 4443
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    From: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
    Status: offline     		Good old "Pacific War" comes to mind - less micromanagement, faster pace, yet the whole Pacific War under your control. 

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    RE: WITP Alternative with Less Micromanagement? - 9/24/2008 12:46:22 AM   
    Heeward


    Posts: 343
    Joined: 1/27/2003
    From: Lacey Washington
    Status: offline     		I have to agree with LargeSlowTarget - and it's free from Matrix Games.


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    RE: WITP Alternative with Less Micromanagement? - 9/24/2008 7:08:32 AM   
    Kull


    Posts: 2625
    Joined: 7/3/2007
    From: El Paso, TX
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Sarconix

    Hey folks,

    I'm a long time reader, first time poster. I have a "simple" question: what is a good alternative to WITP that has less micromanagement?


    Since nothing else quite matches WitP, another alternative is to just play part of it. For example, you could try some of the tactical scenarios (Coral Sea, etc) as they can be completed in less than a lifetime (a LOT less, actually!)

    Another alternative is to play just one of the Allied nations. I once played purely as the Netherlands (turning over all the other regions to the AI), and it was a damn short campaign! And you could probably do something similar with Britain and China. It works pretty well, and the turns fly by, although every now and then some AI general will issue conflicting orders to one of your units (which is actually closer to reality than the "God Control" of running the whole faction).

    If nothing else, this is one of the easiest ways to surmount the "learning cliff".

    (in reply to Sarconix)
    Post #: 7
    RE: WITP Alternative with Less Micromanagement? - 9/24/2008 8:03:31 AM   
    Sarconix

     

    Posts: 86
    Joined: 9/23/2008
    From: Atlanta, GA
    Status: offline     		Hey folks,

    This is great feedback. Let me consider each suggestion in turn:

    Fear of WITP: I did have a look at that thread, but it still sound like even if you understand it, it still takes a very long time just to execute decisions, and there are a lot of decisions to be made. For example, sending troops from a friendly base to an enemy base takes far more clicks and choices than it should. Am I wrong about that? I am thinking of a game with 5-10 minute turns, but it looks like WITP has 30+ minute turns. The thread does have some good advice, though, if you have the raw time to dedicate to the game.

    Strategic Command 2: This is interesting; I didn't realize a Pacific theater version of the game was in the works. I am a bit skeptical whether the engine will handle it well enough. We'll see what the demo and reviews have to say when it is ready. I wonder if Slitherine is planning something like this for the Commander (Europe at War) engine.

    HOI2 C.O.R.E.: I'll have to give this a try. So far the HOI2 engine seems to be about the level of detail I am talking about: relatively coarse decisions to make, and it doesn't take many clicks to do it. The real-time format is a bit cumbersome, though. Does anybody know if there is a Pacific War (full war) scenario with decent AI?

    Pacific War: Now this is interesting. I actually downloaded and tried it tonight, and I can see how it has less micromanagement. There are automated convoys, and ships for TFs can auto-selected, for example. (Can you have this in WITP?) It is clear to see how this preceded UV and WITP.

    However, it still has the WEGO format, and I find it very easy to lose situational awareness: you spend 30 minutes planning potentially dozens of moves, then watch it all execute at once in a blur, all the while having forgotten what you did in the planning phase. (How do you guys manage this?) I find the IGOUGO and real-time formats to be easier to understand: you do something, and get an immediate result.

    Also, the UI and production values in Pacific War are just terrible, even for 1992, but that is probably common knowledge. I suppose I could get used to it, but I would rather spend more time in WITP or UV, which are somewhat better in this regard. Speaking of production values, I wish WITP was even better. I am not asking for much: something like HOI2 or Civ 3. I actually like combat animations and sound effects... that is my reward for good planning. (though I can understand how animation in a WEGO game can be intolerable)

    WITP Small Scenarios: I thought about this, and noticed that UV seems to have more small scenarios, so UV might be better in this regard. But there is still the micromanagement factor: I agree that the turns would be shorter because there are fewer units to deal with, but it still seems like a lot of work to execute even simple decisions. Out of curiosity, how long (in hours) would it take to play the Coral Sea scenario or other multi-week scenarios?

    Thanks again, all! I remain impressed with the community here.

    (in reply to Sarconix)
    Post #: 8
    RE: WITP Alternative with Less Micromanagement? - 9/24/2008 12:42:30 PM   
    rockmedic109

     

    Posts: 2390
    Joined: 5/17/2005
    From: Citrus Heights, CA
    Status: offline     		I play WITP on my nearly three year old laptop.  The turns take 10-15 mins to run with graphics on and minimal delay on the preferences {and I usually ESC out of most of them}.  Takes 20-30 mins to set orders but I go fairly slow.  It may not be 5 minute turns, but 30 minute turns {making orders then running the turn} is not bad for a game of this scope.

    The first month or two {game time} will take longer {up to twice} untill you get a system down for doing your turn and war starts gets less furious.  The micromanaging becomes second nature and not at all burdensome, but I spent almost a year with UV before WITP came out.  The learning curve for WITP was somewhat straightened and any mistakes can be chalked up the same mistakes that can or were made in the war due to inexperience.

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    Post #: 9
    RE: WITP Alternative with Less Micromanagement? - 9/24/2008 9:27:04 PM   
    anarchyintheuk

     

    Posts: 3921
    Joined: 5/5/2004
    From: Dallas
    Status: offline     		UV is to WitP as neanderthal is to homo sapiens. It's probably 1/20 of the geographical area and 1/10 the unit numbers (if not less). It goes much quicker than WitP.

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    Post #: 10
    RE: WITP Alternative with Less Micromanagement? - 9/25/2008 8:20:30 AM   
    invernomuto


    Posts: 986
    Joined: 10/8/2004
    From: Turin, Italy
    Status: offline     		If you like WW2 naval warfare, CAW from SSG is a good game but as you pointed out it is really easy and has little micromanagement compared to WITP. Some say it's too "easy" and I agree with them (little micromanagement, few scenarios, most is handled by the AI so there are few things to do left to the player...) but the latest patches improved the game and introduced new scenarios and "mystery variants".
    It's a fun game focused entirely on carrier engagements, give it a try.

    Bye


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    RE: WITP Alternative with Less Micromanagement? - 9/25/2008 10:31:25 AM   
    Sarconix

     

    Posts: 86
    Joined: 9/23/2008
    From: Atlanta, GA
    Status: offline     		Regarding turn length, I was thinking of 30+ min just to issue your orders, but it sounds like practice will bring that down a bit. Are there options for computer automation (optional micromanagement), e.g. selecting task force ships as in Pacific War? I don't mind turning over control to the computer if it increases the pace a bit.

    Regarding UV, I think some UV players might take issue with the neanderthal comparison. But aren't the play mechanics basically the same as WITP, just a smaller theater and fewer units? I'm mostly taking issue with the mechanics of getting even simple tasks accomplished. As I said above, Pacific War seems to have simpler mechanics, but with the same scope as WITP. The WEGO format is still bothersome for me, though.

    Regarding CAW, thanks for the validation on that. For some reason I am really into WW2 carrier history as the moment, and it looks like CAW will be a good pick. Too bad it's not more popular. On a related note, I just bought all four of the Osprey books on USN and IJN carriers. I also found this period article interesting, in case you haven't seen it: http://www.history.navy.mil/download/pacific.pdf.

    Thanks again for the feedback. There's still no obvious pick for me, but it is interesting to hear the different perspectives.

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    Post #: 12
    RE: WITP Alternative with Less Micromanagement? - 9/25/2008 1:37:14 PM   
    Yamato hugger

     

    Posts: 5475
    Joined: 10/5/2004
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

    Good old "Pacific War" comes to mind - less micromanagement, faster pace, yet the whole Pacific War under your control. 


    Agree. Played this game for years before WitP came out. Weekly turns.

    (in reply to LargeSlowTarget)
    Post #: 13
    RE: WITP Alternative with Less Micromanagement? - 9/26/2008 6:25:54 AM   
    madgamer2

     

    Posts: 1235
    Joined: 11/24/2004
    Status: offline     		there is only ONE! War in the Pacific......I have a hard time even playing the AI as the Allied player but I love it. so as had been said (much better by others)

    1. like real life you will miss some things (or lots of things) but do something each turn
    2. its a long game and if ya loose a fleet or such just keep playing

    I have been playing sense it was released and am only now starting to deal with the scope of it. I make a list of things I missed each turn and all I can say is the list IS getting shorter.

    Just play it and don't worry about what you did not do...if ya love it just play or go back to one of those games you mention......as for HOI 2 lets see if the forum is still here as long as this one. They do not support forums for older versions of games like the first HOI. This forum will still be here when HOI2 is just dust.

    WitP FOREVER!!!!

    Madgamer

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    Post #: 14
    RE: WITP Alternative with Less Micromanagement? - 9/26/2008 6:48:43 AM   
    Sarconix

     

    Posts: 86
    Joined: 9/23/2008
    From: Atlanta, GA
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: madgamer
    there is only ONE! War in the Pacific......

    WitP FOREVER!!!!


    This is a diehard group, I must give you that!

    I'd like to ask about rules. Somewhere in the middle of the 220-page manual is the following:

    Runway damage can limit the air operations at a base. A strike Mission may only be launched
    from a base with runway damage less than 20+(Airfield Size *5). Patrol and CAP Missions may
    only be launched from bases with runway damage less than 50+(Airfield Size *5).

    ... and there are plenty more of those where that came from. Is it important to know this sort of thing? A game like Civ 4 has some "minor" rules that you can ignore without much penalty, and still enjoy the game: knowing all the rules only gives you a slight advantage.

    On a related note, following some comments above, is UV really simpler than WITP, or just smaller? It doesn't have production, atomic bombs, and uh... Chinese partisans, but isn't it basically the same as putting all but one theater under computer control in WITP? I ask in part because the manual is 70 pages compared to 220 pages, but that may or may not mean it is one-third the game. I'm tempted to just put down the $30 and see for myself.

    EDIT: Another details or rules question: can you basically ignore leaders and pilots if don't want to deal with them, or will that be too much of a handicap in practice?

    < Message edited by Sarconix -- 9/26/2008 8:31:41 AM >

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    RE: WITP Alternative with Less Micromanagement? - 9/26/2008 7:43:48 AM   
    Zebedee


    Posts: 535
    Joined: 8/30/2005
    Status: offline     		If you're tempted to pay for UV, I'd say bite the bullet and buy WitP. Play some of the scenarios until you feel confident enough to play a grand campaign. UV isn't really less complex, more like a scenario from WitP to be honest.

    People learn in different ways - for me the manual for WitP was utter gibberish until I'd played a few turns and could then relate it to what was happening in the game. Play enough turns and most rules become second nature as in any game. There's enough info on this forum, enough stickied links to good threads with useful info and definitely enough friendly people here who will answer any question you can think up to make the learning curve far less daunting than it would appear.

    But it really is a true wargame of the old school. And I appreciate that may not be for all tastes - micromanagement doesn't float everybody's boat and a certain amount is inevitable in this kind of game.


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    RE: WITP Alternative with Less Micromanagement? - 9/26/2008 8:56:47 AM   
    Sarconix

     

    Posts: 86
    Joined: 9/23/2008
    From: Atlanta, GA
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Zebedee

    If you're tempted to pay for UV, I'd say bite the bullet and buy WitP. Play some of the scenarios until you feel confident enough to play a grand campaign. UV isn't really less complex, more like a scenario from WitP to be honest.

    Are there good, short, and small scenarios for WITP, that work with the AI? (included or fan-made) My understanding is that UV comes with more of these, which would be an advantage for it.

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    Post #: 17
    RE: WITP Alternative with Less Micromanagement? - 9/26/2008 9:24:29 AM   
    Akos Gergely

     

    Posts: 733
    Joined: 4/8/2004
    From: Hungary, Bp.
    Status: offline     		Definitely try WitP. I was in the same boat as you (I think most of us were) and I had the game for a time but did not dare to start it up seriously. Then I went into it deeper and it got me attracted ever since.

    Actually the micromanagement is really part of the deal, I mean that gives the real startegic sense! You really feel extremely good when a well planned invasion goes through as clockwork - right troops in place on right ships, good recon, good bombardment with minesweeping, CVs providing protection, LBA coming in bombarding etc.)

    To answer your specific Qs, yes there are some good shorter scenarios and I'd recommend in particular Nik's Guadalcanal mod. It has about the same units and map that are UV covers but with a much better (witP) game engine. I think that scenario can be played in a weeks time.

    BTW usuually the first turns take the most time then it gradually decreases and has some peeks when you paln an invasion etc. - this is particularly true for smaller campaigns like this, because yo only have one theatre to concentrate on; but this has the negative side as well, 'cos there are times when there is a lull in the action and for many turns one just watches routine air attacks and submarines moving around and that's it.

    < Message edited by csatahajos -- 9/26/2008 9:40:37 AM >

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    RE: WITP Alternative with Less Micromanagement? - 9/26/2008 9:25:55 AM   
    Knavey

     

    Posts: 3052
    Joined: 9/12/2002
    From: Valrico, Florida
    Status: offline     		It comes with plenty of cut your teeth senarios...I suppose the most popular is probably Coral Sea.

    You could also try what my brother Feinder does...only play as the Brits.  It has all aspects of the game covered SEA, Air and Land and as a whole is a lot more manageable.  Put the other zones on Computer Control (not normally recommended but its a learning curve) and then just let the game unfold.  I imagine that it gives you more of a sense of a "what are those crazy USA guys doing" since you are not in charge, but it keeps your forces manageable until you get the game mechanics down.

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    RE: WITP Alternative with Less Micromanagement? - 9/26/2008 7:45:37 PM   
    madgamer2

     

    Posts: 1235
    Joined: 11/24/2004
    Status: offline     		Due to the large amount of management in the game you could:
    1:Against the AI let the computer handle the sub game (you can place them then let the computer move them.
    2. Again against the computer let it handle China especially if you play the Allies (recommended for first timer's) heck I can't even begin to understand the Jap production so I am Allied only player.

    I trust the computer in that if I try to do something and can't then I ask a question here on the group. Also do play tutorial as it will help a lot. No matter how hard you try you will not get everything done in one turn that you want but its a long game and just do something each turn.
    I have played then first several months of the game Dec-Feb42 several times and this is the first time I made it to Mar. 42 and invaded an Island Saipan and have learned a lot about the game. The AI is not that hard to play at normal and you can turn on some things to give the Allies a little advantage.
    After all the times I played the Dec31-Feb42 part of the game I never came with in 3000 points of the AI jap till now. Ship losses are even in number but I have sunk mostly transport stuff and the AI Jap has more pts as he got a lucky shot at the British BC out of Singapore and sunk it.
    Take some of the advice here like starting with a shorter game. I figure about the time I can begin to handle this game AE will be out and I can start over again.
    As far as UV goes save your money. Winning against the Jap AI is not my objective but to have fun and enjoy the game which I am doing to the max.

    welcome to the forum and good luck!

    Madgamer

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    RE: WITP Alternative with Less Micromanagement? - 9/29/2008 2:01:36 AM   
    wobbly

     

    Posts: 1095
    Joined: 10/16/2002
    From: Christchurch, New Zealand
    Status: offline     		Hi All;
    Short time lurker, then long time player, then curious dog: sniffing his way back to teh forums to reminisce.

    Sarconix:
    It was my memory that I kept the game under control by playing it at a couple of levels: Essentially there is:
    The strategic level: I am going to take the Gilberts in the next 6 months
    The area level: what am I doing in SWPAC (obviously the Allied perspective):
    The tactical level: What ships and planes are doing something for me in this area.

    I just remembered the jist of what I was doing, and then use the situation within a game to remind me. As long as I knew the strategic goal I could decipher most of the rest. This meant no big lists of notes (although caveat here - there is no way you're going to get away without micromanagement when you're executing a large operation - but then you wont want to - this is the meat and drink of the game), and more importantly: no need to 'check every base every turn'. I just found that you don't have to. Most people play the game in single day turns. Other than the hot action it really doesn't matter than you forget to send the 102 Seabees to Fiji as soon as they are available etc Those people that love micromanagement will keep on top of these things, and they are 'likely' to play a more precise game. But if you have a good tactical understanding you can still hand them their backsides in battle after battle. For me that was enough. This meant that I could do a turn in about 20 minutes. Again this changed if there was a major engagement on. I would also, usually in the weekend, have a once over of bases by using the reports - check on levels of supply, fuel and such.

    As in a war of this type, the 'hot' action is only really taking place in a few locations. I would always concentrate on those. When I didn't have the initiative, it was react, when I did, it was plan those encounters I expected.

    The next thing to point out is that you are going to play the AI to get the feel, but then, as with most games, you will tire of its endless tactical blunders and lack of strategic awareness. So I can't recommend PBEM highly enough but it is also at this point that I feel I should warn you.

    PBEM is the only way to play this game. I have made lasting friendships with the people I played against, and that is a testiment to something you've already noticed: the quality of people that this game seems to attract. My opponents were always ready to pull my leg if they hoodwinked me, able to cheer my successes when I hoodwinked them, and also seemed such quality guys to shoot the breeze with.

    However, that turned out to be the problem. This game, if played like we usually do: a turn per day of the actual Pacific War, is of such a long duration, and the quality of the guy you are playing is such that 'you don't feel you can let them down'...
    The game turned into a job. I had to provide a turn for my partner the next day no matter what happened. I mean, I wanted one back, I had to oblige him his turn to do this. While you can obviously organise a hiatus, that's all it was. So, for me, it wasn't the size of the game or its duration (although was more weighty), it was the obligation to my playing partner that eventually killed it for me. My wife literally laid down the law about that, and she was right.

    So, that said and done, I will add my voice to the chorus of 'don't go anywhere else'. This is, without doubt, the best game I have ever played. You will get over the knowledge curve. You will make mistakes and not understand why things didn't work, but you can find the answer in these forums, and often from your opponent. I would recommend you play your first PBEM as the allies because you can absorb these failures while you learn far more easily. I would simply reiterate the advice given by another poster: do a little more, in another area, every turn: try changing altitude on a bomb run, try ferrying troops with transport planes etc. Slowly take control off the computer. While the game is "War in the Pacific", I always played it like it was a string of scenarios: Battle of Gilber Islands, Battle of Caroline Islands, Invasion of Malaya etc sticking them all together to make my "War in the Pacific". I won some of the scenarios, in which case on to the next scenario, and I lost some, in which case retire and look to try again or somewhere else.

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    RE: WITP Alternative with Less Micromanagement? - 9/29/2008 4:55:00 AM   
    rogueusmc


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    Status: offline     		And that's how he, more often than not, handed me my proverbial a$$...good to see ya stranger.

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    RE: WITP Alternative with Less Micromanagement? - 9/29/2008 4:59:25 AM   
    madgamer2

     

    Posts: 1235
    Joined: 11/24/2004
    Status: offline     		I know most will agree with the statement that the best way to play this game is PBEM and I agree in principal to that statement but in fact it will be a long time till I even think about a PBEM game.
    I to think that this is the best game of its kind ever developed and unleashed on the gaming public. This forum is to my knowledge the longest running one of its kind. It started day one of the release date and is still going strong. It does seem to attract quality people also.
    Now It will be a long time till I get into a PBEM game because of that long learning curve, my old age and adifficulty in playing grand strategic level games in general. Its like I tell people who want to play the guitar " no matter how bad you want to play there are some who just don't have the ability to do so.
    That is how I feel about WitP as a game. I have had it sense its release and it still is an overwhelming experience for me to play even against the Jap AI. I try to do a little more each turn and the list just gets longer....(SIGH)
    I have been playing the Allies and playing the first three months over and over till I got some idea of what one has to do in the game. I can't play to Jap side because even after reading all that has been written about the productioon system I just can't deal with how to do it.
    My current game is the first I went farther than Feb 42. It is early Mar 42 and I made my first invasion at Siapan and am not doing that as well as I should so will be doing it a few times to get the feel of how it should go.
    Just playing the Allies against the Jap AI on normal is fun for me and I can only wonder how bad it would be if there was another human person instead of the computer.
    The BIG problem is the time involved just for one turn...at the rate I play it would take longer to play the game than it did to fight the war. LOL. I do like reading AAR's and reading the various posts about different aspects of the game posted by some players who are a lot better than this old guy. Perhaps I can find a Jap human player who is as bad as I am one of these days

    (in reply to wobbly)
    Post #: 23
    RE: WITP Alternative with Less Micromanagement? - 9/29/2008 8:15:24 PM   
    Barb


    Posts: 2503
    Joined: 2/27/2007
    From: Bratislava, Slovakia
    Status: offline     		A little hint for Japanese production:
    Sum together all resources, oil, heavy industry, manpower on area base (e.g.: Korea, Manchuria, North China, Vietnam+Thailand, Burma, Philipines, Hokkaido, Honshu, Shikoku, Kyushu,...).
    Apply production requirements and outputs for them (e.g: 1 resource point gives 1 supply + resource used in HI, ...)
    You will get list with 4 things for each area to deliver or carry away daily (resources, oil, fuel, supply). Multiply it by convoy turnaround time.
    Result: Say you will need to deliver 220 resources to Korea * 10 days convoy cycle (4 there, 1 unload, 4 back, 1 load) = one 2200> capacity AK will carry what the area will need until it is back. AI will deal with the rest moving resources around (dont forget to add some surplus capacity).



    _____________________________


    (in reply to madgamer2)
    Post #: 24
    RE: WITP Alternative with Less Micromanagement? - 9/30/2008 4:45:18 PM   
    Zenra


    Posts: 179
    Joined: 4/25/2002
    From: Grand Rapids, MI, USA
    Status: offline     		I just have to jump in here and echo what many of the others are saying – you do NOT have to dive into all the minutia, memorize all the formulae, or spend hours reviewing every unit and base every move to really enjoy this game. Like many, I have precious little time to play, but over and over again I keep coming back to WitP. Last night, in fact, I had one of the most enjoyable gaming experiences ever when I took just a couple of hours to play the Coral Sea scenario after a several months hiatus from playing.
    The Coral Sea scenario is only a couple of weeks long and plays on a limited map without production. Still, there are a lot of units but at least as the Allies I really only need to know a couple of things and act accordingly: Japan is going for Port Moresby and Guadalcanal. So, all I did the first turn was head my CVs NNW, load up the Americal Div on APs headed for Lunga, and throw all my subs into a TF headed for the Lae / Rabul area (where you can later split them up into single-boat TFs). Second turn I transfer some bombers to PM and notice the Aussie cruiser TF isn’t really doing anything and so I send them over to cover the APs headed to Lunga. In the mean time the boys at PM are putting up a very credible fight against strikes from Rabul and Lae, and Japanese forces land at Gili-Gili, Buna and Lunga. While I keep hitting the Next Turn button as my TFs proceed as ordered I watch with approval as the bombers from PM start hitting the airfield at Lae and the unloading transports at Buna. Then the IJN CV group shows up around Lae and starts joining in the missions from Rabul and Lae against the airfield at PM – I transfer up more fighters (and start a Base ENG force toward PM from Brisbane) and watch those expensive carrier planes fling themselves again and again against the CAP at PM while my bombers there continue reducing the Lae airfield to rubble.
    Meanwhile, the small Aussie cruiser group arrives at Lunga in the middle of the night and completely surprises a Japanese CL/DD TF there! They send three hulls to the bottom, severely damage the rest, and they don’t suffer a scratch themselves!! The next morning my CV group is in range just SW of Lunga and finishes the job as the survivors limp back up the slot, and then launch an afternoon strike against a follow up group of AKs headed in, presumably with supplies. Somewhere during all of this the Americal division has unloaded at Lunga and the much smaller Japanese force finds itself unsupplied and overwhelmed.
    OK, well I didn’t intend to write an AAR here. The point is that I invested a couple hours time, the vast majority of which was spent watching all of this action instead of micromanaging orders, and was rewarded with some excellent surface action, numerous air to air battles, several carrier air naval strikes and a developing ground battle. Granted the expected CV v CV “Battle of the Coral Sea” never occurred, but that was fine with me as PM was still safe, the air groups at PM had seriously depleted the IJN carrier air groups, and I completely ruined their day on Guadalcanal. And best of all I was reminded why I like this game so much, and that I don’t have to spend weeks tweaking things up for a Grand Campaign in order to enjoy it.


    _____________________________

    Mitchell

    (in reply to Barb)
    Post #: 25
    RE: WITP Alternative with Less Micromanagement? - 9/30/2008 8:42:12 PM   
    morganbj


    Posts: 3634
    Joined: 8/12/2007
    From: Mosquito Bite, Texas
    Status: offline     		Sarconix,

    Don't let the game fool you.  Once you get used to the interface, playing the game actually goes pretty fast.  I get two or three turns in an hour very easily, sometimes more.

    Sure, it takes a while to get the whole war fought, but it's loads of fun.  It's not a "one night stand."  It's a "relationship."

    And remember, once you get things moving, you don't HAVE to check everything every turn.  I spend a lot of time the first few turns, but then only check on some units' progress every few turns.  Once I get reinforcements loaded on ships and pointed to their destinations, for example, I usually just let 'em ride, scanning the rear areas every so often to make sure that nothing is going astray.

    The learning curve is not all that great to get good game going.  There's a lot of detail that you don't need to worry about at first.  For example, I played several games before I ever worried about task force commanders.  I may have missed a little action because of that, but I just didn't want to be bothered.  After a while, when you wonder why your task forces are running and not fighting, you can start being more selective about who's in charge.

    The depth of the game is high for those who want it, however.  Now that I've played WITP for a couple of years, I find myself being immersed more and more.  But again, not every turn, not every unit.  Usually I just play the game.

    It's just a facinating game of the period that teaches about the PacWar better than anything I've ever seen.  It's not a true simulation, of course, but it's as close as $75 can get you.  Besides, it's a better addiction than most other things.

    Oh, and my wife doesn't care how long I play.  We're "empty nesters" and spend most of our evenings at home anyway.  She likes the fact that I hide in the back room playing WITP until my eyes bug out ("Just one more turn.").  It's cheaper than other hobbies I would otherwise spend my money on.

    (in reply to Zenra)
    Post #: 26
    RE: WITP Alternative with Less Micromanagement? - 10/6/2008 6:28:23 AM   
    Sarconix

     

    Posts: 86
    Joined: 9/23/2008
    From: Atlanta, GA
    Status: offline     		I'm catching up on this, and I must say thanks for all of the responses!  These are some compelling arguments for diving into this deep ocean.  Some more detailed questions based on what was said:

    madgamer said "Winning against the Jap AI is not my objective but to have fun and enjoy the game which I am doing to the max."  It really sounds like WITP is more about the journey than the destination, e.g. like madgamer playing the first three months several times.  So how do you know when to stop?  Do you set your own victory conditions  and quitting conditions?

    Mitchell mentioned that in the Coral Sea scenarion you know that "Japan is going for Port Moresby and Guadalcanal."  Doesn't that give you (the Allies) an unfair advantage, i.e. hindsight?  On related note, how much randomization is there in the scenarios?  (you have the same map every time, of course, but what is to stop you from eventually memorizing where the enemy is coming from or going to?)

    Also, thanks Mitchell for demonstrating that short-ish games are possible.  I have trouble holding my attention in a strategy game for more than a few (real) days or weeks at a time, so I would definitely for for the short and small games if possible.

    wobbly said "The game turned into a job."  But was it still fun?  If it was still fun, then what was your wife right about... the time commitment?  Can you find PBEM partners that can wait longer between turns?  (There is no way that I would be able to do daily PBEM turns.)

    A few of you mentioned turning on some automation (computer control).  I am still not clear on what all the options are.  I know the computer can run a zone, but someone mentioned having it run all the subs?  Or leaving all the Allied nations but the British up to the computer?  What about getting supplies to bases?

    A few of you also mentioned that you don't really need to track each TF and base every turn.  That's good to know.  Taking that a step further, can you get notifications when things are going wrong, e.g. a base running low on supplies, or ships out of gas?

    One more thing that I don't think was mentioned: how do you deal with the turn results?  Are the post-turn reports good?  Do you even watch the turn resolution?  (e.g. with animations)  Watching the turn resolution is rather confusing, since a lot can happen related to orders you issued several turns back (WEGO format).  This is unlike IGOUGO, where you see an immediate effect for each move... but then you are giving tactical orders, which is not really what WITP is about.

    Thanks again, folks!

    (As an aside, I also like that this forum is about more than just WITP.  There are all kinds of discussions about the Pacific War in general going on here... good stuff.)

    (in reply to morganbj)
    Post #: 27
    RE: WITP Alternative with Less Micromanagement? - 10/6/2008 5:02:51 PM   
    niceguy2005


    Posts: 12523
    Joined: 7/4/2005
    From: Super secret hidden base
    Status: offline     		One way to lesson the requirements for micromanagement is to play the AI. You won't need to maximize your efficiency and can just let stuff go. I'm playing an AI game in my spare time right now as Japan to learn about Japan and the production system...and hopefully to finish a game. I pay close attention to production, by choice, but let a lot of other stuff go. I can play about 10 turns in 3 hours - which is lightening fast for me.


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

    UV is to WitP as neanderthal is to homo sapiens. It's probably 1/20 of the geographical area and 1/10 the unit numbers (if not less). It goes much quicker than WitP.


    Probably a better anology is "UV is to WitP as the mis-perceptions about Neanderthals is to homo-sapiens." I think most anthropologists today have concluded that the Neanderthals were actually a smarter, more sophisticated species, compared to homo-sapiens of the time.

    _____________________________


    Artwork graciously provided by Dixie

    (in reply to anarchyintheuk)
    Post #: 28
    RE: WITP Alternative with Less Micromanagement? - 10/6/2008 7:28:06 PM   
    madgamer2

     

    Posts: 1235
    Joined: 11/24/2004
    Status: offline     		Well Sarconix everybody should learn the game the way you seem to be doing. Welcome to the best darn forum anywhere with some great folks here to help. I will deal with the two things I contributed to in your latest post

    1. Playing the first several turns over several times. I do this because I want to get familiar with the game routines within the same basic strategic situation. I can then try different things and see what works and what does not. The game I am now in against the Jap AI is in late march andI am doing well but when the PI falls (soon very soon) I will be a little further back in victory pts.
    Also I find that the begining three months does not have near the number of ships,TF's and other things to do. To me it seems ther is more to do as the game goes on but all the basic routines are present in the first three months. This is a habit I have used in all the strategic level games I have played and it works for me but for someone else?.....perhaps.

    2. Let the computer run the subs for both sides. I have found that the sub game can take a lot of time and the total number of ships sunk is larger with the computer running the show LOL. I indicate where I want the subs for the allies to go then put them on computer control. When one shows up in a harbor I refuel it and send it on its way.
    You may want to have some subs go to certain places for your own reasons and you can do this. I found that the time it took to play the sub game was not worth it to me with all the other stuff you need to do.
    In my current game I have made an invasion of Siapan and my two 2CV air TF's have sunk a large number of transpors around Siapan and even put a dent in a couple of Jap CA's. This has brought the total number of ships sunk (as of mid Mar.42) to about 53 each. The Jap has more pts because I lost the Repulse due to a stupid error (I forgot to change the home port) and it sailed back into Jap air attack range and went to the bottom.

    3. Computer China? I do this when playing the Jap AI but against a human you will need to play it rather than let the computer do it. I just have enough to do as is but when I get better at the game I will play China as well.

    Madgamer

    (in reply to Sarconix)
    Post #: 29
    RE: WITP Alternative with Less Micromanagement? - 10/8/2008 6:53:52 AM   
    Grotius


    Posts: 5798
    Joined: 10/18/2002
    From: The Imperial Palace.
    Status: offline     		I'm not sure if this game has already been mentioned, but you might check out the forthcoming War Plan Pacific.

    http://www.shrapnelgames.com/KE_Studios/WPP/WPP_page.html

    I have no idea if it will be any good, but it looks interesting.

    _____________________________


    (in reply to madgamer2)
    Post #: 30
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