hermanhum
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A discussion over the beta process ensued over the HarpGamer Chat channel. For those who are interested in the problems behind the proces: quote:
Session Start (Herman:#harpgamer): Wed Oct 01 12:52:28 2008 . . . . * Tegramon finally understands why ANW has such a small fanbase Herman: hehehe Rufford: Ya, the MP is almost impossible to get going Herman: now you know why I have to hold every noob's hand to get them online Herman: did you manage to get the session up? Tegramon: Rufford, that to, but when I bought the game it came down with broken tutorials, IMO, dont want to offend you, but it's a problem of management and presentation Rufford: I think I have the bulk of the major issues with the GE fixed and more will be fixed with mission parameters * Herman Teg: are you sure that you aren't one of my multiple-personalities? Rufford: Tutorials are corrected and will go out with the public release of 3.9.4 Rufford: I managed to crash the client as well Herman: ok Herman: Teg: there are many reasons for the small fanbase. why do you think it is so? Herman: Tutorials? Herman: lack of a standing server? Tegramon: Herman: tutorials also, but lack of polish is the most important in a product Tegramon: game is not really that hard to learn, IMO, you got like ... 3-4 buttons Rufford: ErikR is trying to set up an official server now Herman: what is 'polish'? bad UI? Herman: bad manuals? Tegramon: polish? UI is not bad for me, but it's slow to respond, unending bugs Tegramon: manuals are awsome thanks to matrix :) Herman: I'll beg to differ :) Herman: most of them talk about things you can't even do Tegramon: Herman, manuals are according to taste, but presentation, bugs, polish, this stuff really isent Tegramon: tutorials should be the first thing that should work in a game Herman: no, the manuals talk about non-existent functions and programs Herman: yes, I agree about the tutorials Tegramon: Herman, I only read the part on naval tactics :P Herman: right Tegramon: it's a shame though, game has a lot of potential Herman: it is pretty interesting high-level strategy stuff, but it doesn't really tell you how to play the game, IMO Herman: y, that may be why people hang around Tegramon: it's a matter of management I guess Herman: we see what "it could be" Herman: not "what it currently is" Tegramon: Herman: tutorials in the manual are not in sync with the tutorials in the game itself Herman: that, too Tegramon: polish and stability is the first most important stuff for a user Rufford: So... Rufford: First I fixed every crash bug I could replicate (exept one from an old 3.6.3 scenarios) Rufford: Then I fixed a bunch of blocking bugs Rufford: I fixed the tutorials though you can't see them Rufford: A new UI? Spare a mil? Herman: (no one asked for a new UI, I don't think) Rufford: Well, there is no polishing for this old UI. Rufford: And lots of people ask for a new UI Tegramon: Rufford, coding a new UI would probably cost around 300$ for books, tools would probably be free, there's a lot of professional libs out there for almost nothing or free Rufford: Looking at Qt at the moment Teg Rufford: A lot of issues stem from old libraries though Rufford: Allegro and the UI libraries are ancient Tegramon: let me guess, the game is a port from a DOS codebase right Tegramon: ? Rufford: To mac and back again Tegramon: the way i see it is not as a coders problem (although it involves coding), but of management Herman: agree Rufford: Do tell Herman: it's the process that is broken. Herman: but this is 'boss-level' stuff, IMO Herman: I won't waste your time since I think only DonG has the authority to fix this kind of stuff Rufford: thanks Rufford: But I'm curious Tegramon: Rufford said earlier that he runs the show? Rufford: What do you think? feature freeze, check Herman: no, he is the project manager Herman: but DonG is the company pres and owner Rufford: Director of Operations is the official title (woo) Herman: still. DonG owns Herman: he decides. final authority and all Rufford: Ya Tegramon: feature freeze is a check indeed Herman: you could no more force a decision on him than my (former) staff could on me Rufford: Where did you work? Herman: I used to own my own business Herman: anyway Rufford: What sort of business? Tegramon: well, if it's a logical and sane one, you'd really be stupid not to accept it Tegramon: Rufford, I thought you said he was a coder? Herman: but he can accept all he wants Herman: he can't make AGSI/DonG do anything Rufford: So who is AGSI? Herman: AGSI = DonG Herman: owner = AGSI Rufford: Agsi = Don, few other owners, Darrel, and myself. Tegramon: but a project manager can take a feature freeze decision Herman: well, it's pretty high up what needs to be fixed Herman: IMO, everything CAN be fixed Rufford: Your opinion yes. Herman: it's just a matter of doing it. and that's been lacking Tegramon: i'd say the game's in a perpetual beta Rufford: You don't think I've been improving anything in recent times? Herman: Teg: yup Herman: yes, you have Rufford: But it's all doom and gloom from you Tegramon: Rufford, you did, we see, but the avarage player simply cares not ... Herman: and that is good, but the underlying foundation cannot support your efforts Rufford: Cause you've seen the underlying foundation? Herman: I've seen the results Rufford: You make a lot of assumptions Herman. Herman: I only judge on what is shown Rufford: But then you say that all the problems can be fixed. Herman: just like this beta boondoogle Herman: yup Herman: everything can be fixed Tegramon: Rufford, since you said the cycle was from DOS to Mac and back ... the foundation i'd say is pretty shaky Herman: if there is will to do so Rufford: Right Rufford: And I'm working on it Rufford: Thanks for all of your support by the way Herman: well, I've had a few ideas which we've been chatting about Rufford: Please share Herman: 5-6 points that won't cost you a dime, for the most part Herman: everything is within AGSI's power to change Herman: 1. Freeze the feature list Herman: you say that you have done so, but you simply haven't Herman: that list of things I posted is indicative of this non-happening Herman: you still add things. (even if they are good) Rufford: In the process of fixing issues that you listed. Herman: I like many of them, but the fact is, the feature list isn't frozen Rufford: Alright, 1 is a good idea. Herman: 2. drop all these pretentious sub-fora and hidden systems Herman: i.e. special fora for bug / feature discussion, etc Rufford: hah, pretentious Herman: they dilute the effort Rufford: Okay Herman: it's a waste of time Rufford: I've been working on that for a while Herman: your best discussion is coming from Matrix, IMO Rufford: So, 3? Herman: 3. Everyone gets access to everything. Herman: i.e. no closed beta Herman: it's open. the s/n protects you anyway Rufford: SN does almost nothing Herman: you don't need this "Special access to the Members" section Herman: I think I know why Matrix wants it, but it is not needed Tegramon: I agree with Rufford here, I saw a lot of pirated copies of ANW herman Herman: right Tegramon: S/N is moot Rufford: I don't believe registration is such a high hurdle. Herman: but will that change once the patch comes out? Herman: no, the patch will get cracked, too Rufford: If they make you register for that too, ya Tegramon: Herman, good point, it wont, it gets cracked Herman: so, why all the inconvenience Rufford: You'll have to talk with Matrix about that. Herman: I know Herman: but you control your own Beta distribution, too Herman: to your Beta group Herman: if they are 'dissolved', everyone needs to get the access to the same version Tegramon: Beta should be open especially for this game Herman: I was talking with 3 different beta guys and they were ALL using different versions! Herman: that's insne Tegramon: so we're back to management Herman: right Herman: drop all the various groups Herman: make it all open Herman: no silly 'secret forums' for bug discussion Rufford: 2 and 3 would be the same then. Rufford: But a good point Herman: pretty close, yes Herman: one reason I don't do anything is because I don't know if it has already been solved elsewheres or not Rufford: Open bug discussion is de facto as is Herman: ? Herman: what does that mean? Herman: that it won't change? Rufford: It means almost all bug discussion, about 99%, is done on Matrix forums. Tegramon: well, look at it this way, we're all beta testers Herman: well, that's probably true Tegramon: i run the beta, H runs the beta ... Herman: but even the stuff we can't see, might be helpful Rufford: Not really. Herman: you just don't realize how many problems we find because someone mentions something innocently Tegramon: i should register for beta, might lend a hand to ppl there Herman: that's the creative process Rufford: I would appreciate it Teg Herman: a Noob might say something that makes someone else dig deeper to find something totally unrelated Herman: no, don't do it Teg. I recommend against it Herman: read that NDA Herman: again, this is Boss-level stuff Herman: the big thing in that NDA is a 5 yr restriction on talking about anything you do Herman: that's absurd Herman: just to put it in perspective, H3 (the previous version) came out in 2003). If you worked on it, you COULD NOT even talk about it at this time! Rufford: Hmm, MP tends not to close out on its own. Herman: server just died Tegramon: Herman: it seems that they really are motherly about the product Herman: so, if you want to sign up for the NDA, just realize that you will never be allowed to talk Tegramon: not even between us? Rufford: Well, confirmed the crash I was looking for is fixed. Might have found another Herman: well, you can take that view Herman: see what I mean, R? Herman: you look for one thing, and find another Herman: that's the creative process Herman: if someone mentions one thing, it leads to others Rufford: Well, I'd like to talk freely about all those decisions but I'm pretty sure they would get posted on the internet for eternity. Herman: keeping the Bug discussion closed is a BAD idea Rufford: So what's 4? Herman: wait Tegramon: Rufford's right about this, posting a decision of beta testing on the net for everyone to see, no one does that except small projects Herman: not finished with Teg's idea Rufford: Sorry,go ahead Herman: so, if you feel that a 5 yr restriction is okay, that's your personal opinoin Herman: I find it ridiculous Tegramon: ok, but not even among us? Rufford: Not among non-NDAed folk Herman: and only serves to muzzle folks from discussing AGSI's real boondoggles Tegramon: here on the irc? we're practically beta-testers Tegramon: well, why dont you register H? Rufford: Most of this was done because of things Herman has pulled in the past. Overreactions I'd say. Herman: right, but this discussion is prohibited under your NDA Tegramon: what things? Herman: see? it's supposedly stuff "I've" done. what a crock Herman: yes, by all means. we may as well discuss it Rufford: Not you alone Herman Rufford: Stuff you and Ragnar pulled Tegramon: the way I see it that you guys have to settle some stuff ... Herman: you could not have this discussion if you were under the NDA Tegramon: so what overreactions? Rufford: No, I'm not for settling it. I'd rather just move on and make a game. Herman: because there are folks here who are not under the NDA Rufford: Hey, I'm under NDA and I'm having this discussion Herman: no, you aren't talking about any of the bugs that might be in your secret fora Herman: this stuff is already public Tegramon: so it's pretty liberal Rufford? I mean, you CAN talk about the problems in the game? Rufford: Ya Rufford: We have an anonymous reporting supported in Mantis Herman: that just isn't supported by the NDA Herman: right Herman: and that isn't under the NDA Tegramon: i dont understand, whats the overreaction stuff with herman? Tegramon: you guys need to settle this Rufford: I believe the NDA is there to protect us against information being posted on the websites Herman: yes, let's take a detour and talk about it Tegramon: Rufford, that is a good thing, I totally agree Herman: ah, let's talk about that for a moment, then Rufford: Alright, so there have been a couple personalities in recent history that seem to want to take control of the game Tegramon: posting info about beta stuff is a no-no Rufford: Ragnar was one Rufford: Herman was another Rufford: is another Rufford: Ragnar left Herman: see, that's where we'll disagree Rufford: Right Herman: I don't want to control this game. Ragnar did, yes Rufford: So Ragnar accusses Herman of copying his database Herman: yup. to control the game Herman: he just can't get over the fact that we did something so that he could not control the game with his DB Rufford: As Herman seemed to have come out of nowhere with a huge database aproximately the same size of the DB2k (another database) we looked into Herman: we gave an alternative and he just couldn't take it Herman: nonsense Rufford: I looked at the data and a lot of it looked identical Herman: the Y2kDB is much larger Rufford: Hold on, just giving my side Herman: sure Tegramon: this accusations are really childish really, who the **** cares who's database is as long as it improves the porduct? Herman: hehehe Rufford: Well, Ragnar never copyrighted his database anyway Rufford: And the only one owning intellectual property is Larry Bond Herman: and facts in the natural world cannot be 'copyrighted' Rufford: People work really hard on these things Teg Rufford: And there were at least a few instances of scenarios copied Rufford: Another issue is Herman posting the bugs everywhere under the sky Rufford: Now, I'm not for hiding our problems Herman: another falsehood Tegramon: Rufford, then why are we talking about DB stuff? I really dont see how someone can take control of the game unless he sabotages with a better DB and refuses to share Herman: which scens. Exactly Rufford: But posting in all the forums and then just leaving it there so no matter what we do, that snapshot stays, irked us Herman: speaking of sabotage... Rufford: So Herman: (Link: http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23874)http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23874 Rufford: Teg, the game is really in the content creators Rufford: The people making scenarios Tegramon: I agree with this, if old bugs are posted and taken care of they should be erased Rufford: Herman and Ragnar managed to start a civil war Herman: many points are raised Rufford: Drove away a lot of the content creators Herman: let's examine them Rufford: What else.... Rufford: Oh yea Rufford: Every breath from Herman seems to condemn us Rufford: I wonder why he plays the game Rufford: That's about it from me (thanks for letting me go first) Tegramon: we all like it Herman: let's start with that NDA: * Rufford got a crash log from the server btw? Herman: "you agree to hold all results and AGSI data (including but not limited to Serial Numbers, Executables, Test Data, Quality Assurance Data/Procedures) confidential for a period of five years from now. You further agree to not defame, nor attack, any other Harpoon player, product, developer, team member, or publisher during your time as a Beta Tester. " Tegramon: we did not finished with the nonexistant buglist though Herman: sorry, no Herman: I just shut down Herman: it Herman: not even a crash message. just GONE Tegramon: it's really not polite to let those bugs float on forums if they are solved Herman: you can't talk about Beta problems for 5 yrs Herman: and they aren't Herman: let's focus on that quote Herman: except for the 5 yr requirement, it's a fine requirement Herman: problem is, everyone ignored it with the exception of ME Herman: so, that's why I would never sign up for it Tegramon: well, as you saw, Rufford is pretty lenient when we talk between us. Who would care? Girlfriend? Wife? ... Rufford: hehe Herman: when it is openly flouted by everyone under the sun. everyone flame with impunity, I'll do the same Rufford: No Rufford: The NDA is there because him and Ragnar Rufford: He should be worried Herman: there you go Herman: that's why I'll continue to ignore it Rufford: That's fine Herman: since it will only be enforced against me Herman: been there, done that Herman: not stupid enough to do it again Tegramon: well, Herman, the bug list you posted, is still viable to this day? Herman: now, let's talk about that Tegramon: beacause if it's not ... that is where the problem really stems from Herman: this 'bug list' I supposedly posted was a link to the "mantis" bug-tracking system Herman: sure, I quoted from it, but it was an open system at that time Rufford: Nah, was on usenet as a list of issues Herman: no, it wasn't Tegramon: usenet? bad place to post buglist :( Herman: we are talking about different things, I think Herman: you'd better find a reference, then, Rufford Herman: if you can find it, I'll talk about it. Rufford: So is gamesquad for that matter Herman: it doesn't exist Herman: right Herman: there was a listing on GameSquad Herman: a link to your Mantis Tegramon: anyway, posting buglists on many many forums would really damage the credibility of the company herman, depends on what forums and the tone, but I would not like it for my app Tegramon: and depends on how many forums Herman: it's the same bug list on every forum Herman: SimHQ, SubSim, HarpGamer, ScenShare, Matrix, GameSquad Tegramon: whoa Herman: everywhere Harpoon discussion appears Herman: I support every forum that supports Harpoon discussion Tegramon: well, any player who sees it might feel deterred from buying it ... Herman: Open Harpoon discussion. I don't play favourites Herman: that's their prerogative Herman: I only post what can be proven Rufford: We're talking about very bad PR Herman Herman: but there are also folks who have written to me thanking me for the list Rufford: You're a horrible PR machine Rufford: For all your talking about helping, preventing sales does not help develop a better game Tegramon: it's also mine, I work in software dev, i'd not like my app to sit near a huge bug lists on 6 forums Herman: they say, "it gave them a better idea of what they were buying". they still bought the game Herman: I hide nothing Tegramon: well, this posting should be more controlled Herman: it is updated every time a patch comes out Herman: how much more accurate does it need to be? Rufford: You're not getting it Tegramon: Herman, but are those bug lists accurate? Herman: if there were no problems, then it would disappear Rufford: Everyone looks everywhere and sees bug lists Herman: yup Herman: they are checked with every patch Herman: that should not be a problem Rufford: Teg, I put them in Mantis so I could deal with the issues Rufford: (Link: http://hud3.harpoon5.com/mantis/my_view_page.php)http://hud3.harpoon5.com/mantis/my_view_page.php Tegramon: Herman, the idea is that anyone who looks at Harpoon discussions the first thing he sees are bug lists, once he takes a look at the screenshot for the game and sees the old dos interface, he's gone Rufford: Might have to change the selected project Herman: if everyone checked everywhere and saw Harpoon discussion, you'd be happy, too Herman: you can't have the good without the bad. I hide nothing Rufford: You advertise everything bad as much as possible Rufford: That's the issue Rufford: One place, that'd be reasonable Herman: when there is so much bad, it is hard to highlight the good Herman: no, Herman: it is not reasonable Herman: people will talk about the game where THEY want to meet Herman: not where AGSI / Matrix want them to meet Rufford: Well keep fighting the good fight there Tegramon: yeah, but on 6 forums is really bad for PR ... I guess you hoped that would force AGSI to solve them ASAP? Herman: I post on SubSim, SimHq, etc because that is where those fans want their info Herman: I don't go on SubSim and say, "come to Matrix/AGSI to discuss it,..." Herman: that is simply disrespectful of SimHQ, IMO Herman: they go to SimHQ for their data; not Matrix Tegramon: Herman, than the bugs should remain only to those who beta test them, no software company posts their bugs on public forums, none i've seen so far, it's awfull for reputation Herman: if you want to try and re-direct discussion to your forum, that's your right Herman: I post the info where THEY want it Tegramon: Herman, yeah, but it's bad for reputation Herman: Teg: do you know that the ONLY reason there is a 'Public Mantis' is because the lists were already out there? Rufford: So I think we're not going to come to an agreement on this issue Herman: yup Herman: no need to come to an agreement, I think Rufford: I disagree Herman Herman: I post publicly what I like Rufford: The reason we engaged the list is because we finally had the resources to do so. Herman: I won't be censored Rufford: Courageous Herman: well, that's your view Herman: I have a different perspective Rufford: Right Tegramon: Herman, but it's bad for sales, few people come to know and appreciate the game * Rufford tries to remember that this is about a video game. Herman: My perspective is that you finally had to deal with it since everyone else was reading it Herman: y Rufford: How long were they posted Herman? Rufford: Years? Herman: y Rufford: So what changed? Herman: and it got people talking Rufford: How many years from posting to when I put them in Mantis and started working on them? Herman: and the HC list is still posted Tegramon: Herman, so the way i see is that your trying to force AGSI hand to fix the bugs by making a public aggressive PR campaign, it's commendable, but there should be another way. more diplomatic Herman: yet the HC list seems to get smaller with patchs Herman: not so with the ANW list Herman: no, it wasn't to force anything Herman: if AGSI fixes, great Rufford: It's got smaller in the last 3.9.x patches Herman: if they don't, well that's their choice Rufford: If we just stop developing the game, oh well Tegramon: so why did you not modified the list Herman? Tegramon: or you did? Herman: the customer gets to know exactly what he is getting himself into. if he agrees, he buys. if he doesnt', he walks away Herman: I do Herman: every patch that comes out, we check the bugs Herman: and we take off those bugs that are fixed Rufford: I don't see it as so altruistic Herman: we leave the ones that aren't Herman: R: well, that's your opinion Tegramon: Herman, it's honest I agree, but this is not how the business world is working, if i'd done that for the company i worked for, i'd be getting fired in 5 minutes tops :) Herman: done 'what'? Rufford: He doesn't work for us so it doesn't matter Herman: right Herman: that's exactly it Rufford: But don't expect us to be happy about it all Herman: and no one cares about your happiness Herman: we just want a functional game Tegramon: done as in posted bug listis for software to the public, bug lists are strictly internal, granted the NDA's for any company is tops 6-12 months, even less Rufford: Ya, we're all working for that Herman: and we'll have to disagree on that, too Rufford: ? Herman: doesn't seem that way, Rufford: Which issue? Herman: okay, back to bug lists Rufford: We're not resolving this, what's next Herman: let me read back up Herman: okay, we were talking about 5yr NDA Herman: it's silly and useless Tegramon: 5 year indeed is silly Herman: especially since no one observed the terms Rufford: Annoys you so I guess that's more about our happiness Herman: right Tegramon: i signed NDA's in the past, mostly for 6-12 months Herman: so, you need to get the betas out there to everyone who wants them Tegramon: depends on the product line though Herman: is that #4? Tegramon: Herman, arent beta's out? Herman: nope Tegramon: i registered my legal copy of the game and got the beta Rufford: No, was #3 Herman: they are under 1) the Matrix membership requirement 2) there are 'private' betas, too Herman: okay, #3 Tegramon: private beta's? strange Herman: there are two ways to get a beta Herman: you must register with Matrix Herman: I wish not to do this Tegramon: i did that Herman: there are also private Betas Tegramon: i dont plan on selling ANW Herman: these betas are ONLY avail to folks in the Beta group Tegramon: well, it's again a PR problem Herman: so, you maybe running Beta 394.6, but the private beta might be 394.7 or 394.8 or 394.9... Tegramon: you can't ship beta copy's of the game to all ppl Herman: who's shipping anything? Herman: you just put it out for folks to DL (if they want) Tegramon: Herman, the private beta's are patches or entire game snapshot? Herman: what's the point of testing 394.6 and it could already be fixed in 394.8? Tegramon: beacause if they are entire game snapshot, they'd give the game for free Herman: no, the betas still require s/n Herman: so, you need a legitimate s/n to install/run them Tegramon: that can be easily overcome, but they are patches or full game? Herman: full game Herman: oops Herman: not full game Rufford: The internal betas are just the exes Herman: only the exe files, right? Herman: the hotfixes are that, too Rufford: With an installer Herman: let's get back to i Herman: it Herman: the beta out right now is 394.6 Herman: so, we test with it, right? Tegramon: yes Rufford: Yes Herman: well, that's kind of a waste of time Tegramon: why? Herman: because there may be 394.7 an already out Herman: so, we are testing 'obsolete' software Rufford: The Matrix beta is on the only beta process out there besides what I run on my box Rufford: So I understand that worry, but it's unfounded Herman: 394.7 might fix something we just discovered in 394.6 Herman: so, why bother? Tegramon: Herman, so this means we're beta testers, as probably most of us on this irc channel are, then we should have registration and NDA accounts set up Herman: no. I will never again work under an AGSI regime Herman: let's concentrate on the process Tegramon: ok, you guys should settle this Rufford: Where's the nearest pit? Herman: so, if 394.6 is out and 394.7 and 394.8 are in the private beta, we are really wasting time testing 394.6 Herman: simple as that Herman: we are testing old stuff. why not just be testing 3.8? same difference, really Tegramon: true, but then we should register for the agreement and we can all have the bleeding edge Tegramon: solution is simple Herman: sure, registrants would have the latest, but it is simply WRONG to restrict it Rufford: There is no .7 except what's on my box now Herman: you've read Matrxi Herman: some of the best ideas come from Noobs Tegramon: Herman: agreed Herman: and casual non-beta folks Tegramon: again agreed Herman: R: that may be the case, now. but that wasn't the case earluier Herman: I spoke with 3 beta guys. one had 394.1, another had 394.3 and the last was on 394.4 Herman: so, they all got different versions Herman: and they are YOUR beta group Rufford: I guess I should make updating mandatory somehow Rufford: That'd solve it Herman: so, restricting this stuff is only hurting your testing Herman: no Herman: just put it out publicly Herman: all the time Rufford: We'd have the same issues Herman: every time you got a new one, put it out Tegramon: Rufford, you could set a limited license on the betas so they all end the same date Herman: only of guys don't want to get the latest Rufford: Many many versions being mixed up by a good deal more people Herman: the beta guys told me that they had different versions because that was what you sent them Herman: just like that BurntFingers idiot Rufford: I announce them in a mass e-mail Herman: let me find the link Rufford: Hey, try to tone it down Tegramon: Herman: a software company does not give out betas to everyone, beta testing is always closed, and also a software company never publishes bug lists, that belongs to internal management honestly, you have good ideeas, except for those two things, no one does them ... Herman: understood Herman: if they want to keep it closed, then they do it that way Herman: this 'open' beta charade is just that. a charade Rufford: The question is Rufford: Is it the smart thing to do Rufford: Only to you Herman Herman: (Link: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=1772044)http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=1772044 Rufford: I don't know the details of the re-sell issue but seems it could be worked out Herman: that's where old Burnt said that not everyone in the Beta group got the same versoion Tegramon: i dont see it Herman: let me grab the quote Rufford: I don't read that...Think I'm missing it Tegramon: ok Herman: "GRRR.... OH NO YOU DON'T. News as it seems to you, AGSI policy was NOT TO SUPPLY THE RELEASE TO ALL BETA TESTERS. DON'T BLAME ME!!!" Herman: he got an older 'beta' when the 'elite' beta guys got a newer release Rufford: He was flying off the handle Tegramon: Herman, he meant the release available under matrix download Rufford: No, nothing like that Herman: no. Herman: he is part of the beta group Rufford: I gave a beta build to individuals so they could confirm some bug kills Rufford: It was informal Herman: but some guys in the beta group got more recent versions e-mailed to him. he couldn't get a coopy Rufford: He later did. Herman: sure Tegramon: probably each has assignments? Herman: but you just don't see the problem, eh? Tegramon: each beta tester on an area Tegramon: or? Rufford: I see you blowing it out of proportion. Herman: again, your perspective Herman: I point out a fact and you claim it doesn't exist Herman: either it is true or it isn't Rufford: You call the guy an idiot and then quote him to prove a fact Rufford: Nice Tegramon: anyway ... the game is suffering from your wars, what does it take for you two to reach an agreement? Herman: he is an idiot Herman: even idiots get things right Rufford: And quoting him would be idiotic Herman: your perspective, again Herman: even a moron can count to 5 Tegramon: ok, stop it both of you, this is getting nowhere, NOWHERE Herman: I am still answering to the accusations Tegramon: you should reach an agreement Rufford: Patience Teg Tegramon: both of you Rufford: Simmer down Herman: I had my plan, but I'm kind of distracted by the accusations Rufford: I doubt we'll get anywhere but it's an interesting exercise Herman: I can continue with my plan, if you prefer Tegramon: Rufford, im simmer, but dont you see it's getting nowhere ... ? Rufford: I do prefer Herman: or I can answer to the accusations Rufford: I don't agree Teg Rufford: I'll make time for the accusations Rufford: Or the response rather Tegramon: Rufford, ok, tell me your view Herman: Teg? Herman: do I answer the accusations or go on with my proposal? Tegramon: yeah? answer the accusations, might as well have the whole picture Herman: okay Herman: I'm working through Rufford's list Rufford: I've read your responses many times on the forums (not that I'm not willing to hear them again) Rufford: The ideas you're listing are more productive Herman: I'm trying to keep Teg engaged, too Herman: okay, the next accusation was about scenarios and databases being copied. Rufford: Okay Herman: which scenarios, exactly * Herman that's a new one to me Tegramon: Herman, from AGSI? Herman: no idea Tegramon: or another player? Rufford: From another scenario developer Herman: I never heard the accusation until today Herman: so, which ones Rufford: Really, I believe he posted about it on the Matrix forums Herman: you must have the titles Herman: then please point them out to me Herman: I never saw them. I could have missed it Rufford: I'm looking Rufford: This might take a while Rufford: Might wanna move forward * Rufford is still looking. Herman: okay Herman: just a sec, please Herman: okay, let's do the other accusation Herman: about the PlayersDB Herman: I've also answered to them on Matrix, too Herman: now, you say that you've looked and drawn your own opinions. Rufford: So quick interruption. I don't really care about this stuff except for how it leads to more bad PR. Rufford: this stuff = the plagarism issue Herman: well, it plays a major part Tegramon: Rufford, but is one allowed to talk of bugs on AGSI forums? Herman: okay, I have all the intermediary phases of how I built HUD into the PlayersDB Rufford: Naturally Herman: the problem is, AGSI never bothered to talk to me ONCE. not once about this Rufford: We looked at the results Herman: if you wanted to see how I did it, I would have shown you Rufford: And have our perspective Herman: instead, you look at this crap Rufford: I looked at the databases Herman: sure Rufford: Later on someone (I think Ragnar) presented a spreadsheet Herman: and I could pretty much tell you exactly how and where that stuff came from, but no one bothered Herman: I saw that, too Herman: and I have my own, too Tegramon: yeah, but on matrix seemed to be a discussion on banning users from posting bulistis on AGSI Rufford: bulistis? Herman: are you leading somewhere else, Teg? Tegramon: buglistis sorry :P Rufford: Go ahead Herman Herman: I'm sorry. did Teg have a question? Rufford: Herman talks more about banning than we do. Herman: maybe I should answer it first? Rufford: I've started many discussions on bugs Tegramon: Herman, you were banned? *** ChanServ has changed the topic on channel #harpgamer to "HCE: Bringing you war from across the globe" (CV32). Herman: well, the fact was/is, people got banned on Matrix/AGSi for talking about bugs Herman: I am back on Matrix, but not on AGSI Herman: nor am I on AGSI IRC channel Herman: notice how the AGSI developer has come over to HG channel to talk about this stuff Tegramon: they have a chan? Rufford: Yep Rufford: This is where the action is Rufford: Everything else is handled in IMs Herman: so, bans remain in effect and a part of the AGSI way of doing business. Herman: simple as that Tegramon: so you are banned there herman? Herman: y Rufford: He is Rufford: Too divisive of a player Tegramon: why? Herman: he just gave his opinion Tegramon: ah Rufford: Why is he divisive? Herman: and mine is that I refuse to have bug talk squashed Rufford: No Tegramon: its about PR Rufford: Because many people believe he copied his work Herman: again, your perpsective Rufford: I'm telling you why you are divisive Herman: and now we get back to that accusation Tegramon: ok Herman: why, because I refuse to confess to things I didn't do? Rufford: Confession wouldn't help Herman: so, we were on this DB crap issue Herman: well, only if it were true Rufford: But once again Herman: and I'll continue to spit in the eye of all false accusers Rufford: I don't care and you don't care about AGSIs irc channel Herman: sure Herman: it's the fact that AGSI continues to try and restrict discussion Tegramon: let's be polite Rufford: Your discussion Herman: so, it comes back to the bug problem Rufford: We're pretty free with everyone elses Herman: problems that need to be openly discussed cannot be Herman: closed channels and fora Rufford: Let's continue on with the accusation responses Herman: back to the DB accusation Rufford: We can get with the other stuff in a bit Herman: firstly, you say that Scens were copied, yet you cannot find them * Rufford hopes the HCE guys are enjoying this Herman: now, we get to the DB accusation Herman: you have your opinion, and others have theirs Herman: I've stated exactly where the PDb derived from the HUD Herman: and even discussed this with Darren Tegramon: HUD? Herman: another database edited by Darren Buckley Rufford: Darren Buckleys database Tegramon: ah Herman: we built PDb from the HUD II Herman: HUD II was an older H3 database Herman: Fred Galano built upon it as a foundation for his H3DB Herman: I worked with Fred on it Tegramon: for free? pretty decent Herman: when we decided that the H3DB could not fulfill our needs, I made a variant of H3DB and made it into the PDb Herman: everyone does this for free Herman: the big difference between what Fred and I wanted to do was how the DB was going to be edited Herman: as you know, we don't just change things in the PDb Herman: we don't crash people's scens Tegramon: right Herman: the way Fred wanted to maintain H3Db meant problems for folks who built scens with it Herman: it's his way, and it isn't "wrong" Herman: we just didn't think it was a good long-term philosophy Herman: so, we parted as friends and I and others continued with the PDb Herman: when it was ready, we took the scenarios we originally wrote with the Y2kDB and re-made them for the PlayersDB Herman: anyway, as to the accusations, I'm happy to answer them in REAL court, too * CV32 is not following the discussion closely, but there can be no enjoyment of this rehashing of old wounds Rufford: There was no copyright notice Tegramon: should be a fun process Herman: not this mickey mouse AGSI or hhq process Herman: I'm quite happy to find a REAL judge Rufford: Such drama Herman: the fact remains, the law does not allow you to copyright what hhq claims that it owns Herman: let's use a sports example Herman: if I buy a football team and fire all the players and hire a new team, are they 'copies'? Herman: they all play the same positions, have two legs, arms, and a head. does that make them 'clones'? Tegramon: their unlucky Brains: How about we move this discussion to some place more appropriate... Like ##DB_Wars_Ad_Infinitum or something... Herman: that's crap Herman: hehehe Rufford: Alright Herman: if the ops want me to move, that's fine Rufford: Let's do as the OP says Herman: sorry for taking over the room Rufford: How about #resolution Herman: that's fine for me Rufford: I'm there Rufford: Sorry about all that. * Brains shrugs. "No harm, no foul." CV32: its ok to continue here Herman: then let's do so CV32: as long as everyone maintains a modicum of respect Herman: I prefer it here Rufford: I'm gonna ban you from the other room for kicks then Herman: I do not believe I have done anything less than that CV32: if insults start to get tossed around, then move it elsewhere Herman: of course. I hope that I haven't issued any * Brains clarifies that he isn't kicking anybody out, merely suggesting his opinion of the topic... (And he's one that will discuss random offtopic things all the time anyways.) CV32: and all the other usual rules, like paying proper penance to me :P Rufford: You have but let's move on * Rufford sacrifices a cow. CV32: bravo, i am a fan of beef Rufford: Please continue when ready Herman * Brains takes his medium rare. Herman: okay, so the accusation is out there and I'm happy to answer to real judges * Rufford its steak tacos tonight * CV32 will also take a medium rare :) Herman: mmmm. :) Rufford: The data is public for anyone to take a look at and judge for themselves * Brains would go rare but he likes to audition his cooks first. Herman: right * Rufford is a friggin grill master. Herman: so, everyone gets to have their own opinion Herman: has this one been sufficiently answered? Tegramon: from my point yeah Herman: we will have to touch upon it again when we talk about other stuff Rufford: A lot of actions stem from that issue, yes Herman: do you wish to continue with it? Herman: something you need to touch upon, now? Rufford: Me? No. Tegramon: me? no Herman: okay Tegramon: lol Herman: as I see it, scenarios were claimed. but none can be produced Herman: so, until I actually get a file, there's not much else to back up that accusation Rufford: Correct, I can dig that up from the annals of the internet some other time but there's a lot of garbage to sift through Herman: you'll have to find it Rufford: And I'm getting pretty hungry Herman: it's the first I've heard of it Herman: well, sorry Herman: this crap takes a long time Herman: I'm not trying to drag it out Herman: okay, the next accusation was: Rufford: Herman and Ragnar managed to start a civil war Herman: many points are raised Rufford: Drove away a lot of the content creators Herman: sure, that war happened Herman: and it didn't involve AGSI, so it is pretty irrelevant to this discussion Tegramon: was it like the american one? :) Rufford: Usual internet flamer wars Herman: and the next one: Rufford: Every breath from Herman seems to condemn us Brains: Nah, the American one was much more interesting... And productive actually. Tegramon: well, chasing off users is AGSI problem Herman: just like my posting on every forum Herman: if folks want to talk about good things in Harpoon, I'll talk about them, too Rufford: But don't expect to be treated nicely then Herman: no one stopped AGSI or anyone else from posting features on the same forums that the bug lists were posted to Herman: not be treated nicely for what? Rufford: We can post in forums all day or develop the game instead. Rufford: For preaching about the evils of AGSI. Herman: oh, about the censorship? Herman: well, I'll continue to do that if it continues Rufford: Not exclusively Herman: for what, exactly then? Rufford: But in this I will say, you were not always unprompted Rufford: Bannings and th general attitude towards you Herman: for not believing that AGSI developers can ignore the laws of mathematics and physics? Herman: please be specific Herman: if you can Rufford: I was specifically referring to posting buglists everywhere. But we've covered that. Herman: I keep hearing innuendo and slurs. some details, please Herman: right Herman: and the rest? Herman: I'm still hearing the same accusations Rufford: Right... Herman: so, the accusation was, again: Rufford: Every breath from Herman seems to condemn us Tegramon: if buglists arent allowed on AGSI's forum and or site then it's normal what herman did Herman: so, I will continue to condemn censorship and bans Rufford: They are allowed on AGSI's forums. Herman: not before Herman: I posted plenty that have 'disappeared' Herman: I just gave up on it Rufford: In the public forums? yes Herman: well, that's where they 'were' Rufford: Ya, and we covered how we don't want the most public face of AGSI to be a list of bugs Herman: okay Rufford: Hence the censorship Herman: I think I've answered to Rufford's accusations Herman: at least you admit to the censorship, then Rufford: But beyond the buglists Rufford: You badmouth us constantly Herman: now, the rest of the proposal Rufford: At this point, it just makes me wonder what drives you to do so. Herman: when you fix the problems, I'll say all kinds of sweet things, too Rufford: Don't hear that Herman: it's just that you haven't so I won't Rufford: I hear, "They introduced a lot of new bugs with that" Herman: and how is that untrue? Herman: if you want me to change the syntax, I can Herman: I'll say, "These new issues were reported after the XXX patch" instead of "These issues were created by XXX patch". Will that make you happier? Rufford: But realize in all this sharing of our perspectives, in the end you are a customer and I will treat like any other customer. Rufford: I want Teg to understand that as well Tegramon: well, after all we're all just "customers" Herman: if it means that things won't be fixed, it doesn't matter Rufford: "These bugs were introduced in this patch" is at times patently false. Herman: then I'll say that they were reported after patch XXX. Herman: okay, that's fair Herman: does it change anything material? Rufford: Yes. Herman: it's not like the behaviours can't be reproduced Tegramon: Rufford, it seems some poeple put a lot of passion in the game, i dont see it as a bad thing, the purse can be "milked" Rufford: Much of this discussion is about context Herman: no, it isn't, IMO Herman: these are substantive issues Rufford: People are so passionate they kill off interest in casual customers Herman: no, they know our passion Herman: they read the game reports Herman: they hear us playing and trying to enjoy the game Tegramon: Rufford, sadly the other way around is what happend to Spore :) Rufford: Ya, not very enticing at all Rufford: Not saying you can't say these things Rufford: Just that I don't appreciate it Rufford: I'm sure you can live with that Herman: different opinions, of course Herman: now, what was my last proposal? Rufford: Lack of concern about what the other thinks Herman: let me look it up Tegramon: i never "bought" anything from AGSI, although I can say I was a little scared when I sought a review and found the buglist, but the product proved to be good despite it flaws, excellent game with good marketing potential Rufford: 2 and 3 were about opening up forums and betas Tegramon: anything before* Rufford: We have a demo coming out again. Rufford: That can help Herman: okay, talked about opening up the fora and testing Herman: it's all part of the creative process Herman: we need to see what others are saying and thinking Herman: whenever you posted an idea on Matrix, you got a (hopefully) thorough response Herman: if that had been the case before, AGSI probably wouldn't have so many problems Herman: okay, #4 Herman: you need to take the PlayersDB and circulate it like any other DB Herman: we know it was derived from Darren's HUD II Herman: and it's just hurting your users to deny it otherwise Rufford: No one is denied Herman: this stance just continues the antagonism within the community Rufford: You advertise it constantly Herman: sure Herman: and if you send it out with the patch, that would be excellent Rufford: We made it easier to change databases in ANW. That's about as far as I can go Rufford: No. Herman: in fact, we would have no objection to including other DBs with our installation Herman: if other DB editors want us to include it with our installation, we'd probably do it because it is good for the game Tegramon: that would lessen AGSI controll Rufford: Don't hinge anything on getting your db in the official release. Herman: we want all dbs and scens to go out with a single click Herman: it helps the new users to get everything and not one piece at a time Herman: like I said, these are what I think need to be done. this stuff costs AGSI NOTHING Tegramon: is the ANWDB so bad? Herman: yup Rufford: I actually have a problem with PDB Rufford: It's too large Herman: ok Herman: right Herman: valid point Rufford: The game runs slower with it Herman: yup Rufford: You should consider making an MP version that is a subset Herman: there is a 'way' around it Herman: right Herman: I have thought of that, too Herman: but let me conitnue Herman: PDb does not want to be exclusive Tegramon: but it tends to Herman: if other DB editors want their stuff going out with our own, we could accommodate Tegramon: most of playerDB though ... Herman: we could package all 5-10 DBs and the players could get the whole shebang with one click Herman: but the other editors have to ask for it Rufford: You can manage those databases. We'll make it easier to switch between them Herman: that would promote your game Rufford: I don't seeing that add much value Herman: it is pretty easy already, isn't it? Rufford: Yes. Herman: 300+ scens? how could it not Herman: but if we put 600 in an installation, then that is even better Tegramon: 300+? I got the std PlayerDB installed and dont have that many Rufford: They can get them anyway Herman: you should have almost that many, Teg Herman: we wrote that many (not all are out, yet) Rufford: Besides the question in value Herman: let's pause a moment Rufford: We can reference the old plagarism issue which would just bring up the DB flame wars again Herman: we already put out the PDb LOTs as an after-market installation Herman: and it wouldn't Herman: if it is an AGSI product, then no such claims can be made Herman: we know that the DB 'structures' are claimed by AGSI Herman: and, AGSI already says that we cannot' sell' scens or DBs, then how is that not defacto ownership by AGSI? Herman: of course, your interpretation of the law may be different, but I see it as all AGSI property nonetheless Rufford: Cause we don't own it? Herman: and no different from the Doom judgment Rufford: Not familiar Herman: According to what Vince has told me and the links he provided, Doom asserted it's ownership over all residual works created for that gbame Herman: some guys tried to create levels, etc. for sale Herman: according to the judgment, the owners of Doom were deemed to be the owners of the materials made with the Doom editors Herman: that's the quick and dirty of it Tegramon: ah, the WAD wars, was so looong ago Herman: and how it was basically explained to me by Vince Herman: WAD? Rufford: right Rufford: the binary database Tegramon: WAD was the extensions that the "levels" of doom had Tegramon: yeah Herman: okay Rufford: scenario and platform in one Tegramon: textures and the like, maps Herman: I'm not a game journalist or jurist. all I know is the opinion I was given Herman: which I do not believe to be in error Herman: anyway, sending off the entire packaged deal is the best idea, IMO Rufford: What's this about anyway? Herman: we WANT you to take our DB and scens and go Make Money with them Tegramon: so this is the underworld of harpoon :) did not imagined the harpoon was so smeared with blood and wars and issues :) Herman: if you offer a patch with 300+ scens, you can bet that is added value Herman: you dont' think so, but I believe you in error Herman: Tony and I were chatting about this and not many users seem to go with third-party works Herman: in our opinion Herman: even when we make it as easy as PDb, many stick to the 'official' scens Rufford: I'm not up for managing it all Herman: even though they are offered throughout the internet, consumers aren't taking advantage of most third-party offereings Herman: what's there to manage? Herman: when you are ready to patch, you grab the latest and off to the races you go Herman: you don't do it daily, weekly, monthly. just when your official patch goes out Rufford: So where's the QA process in that? Tegramon: I can allready see it that the Harpoon 4 : MIA would have PlayersDB included at only the price of 80$ Herman: and what are you promising? Herman: you only distribute. you make no claim or warranty Herman: you are providing service/value to your customersw Tegramon: AGSI needs to ship and claim a functional product Herman Tegramon: they should claim it is of quality Herman: and they can easily put in a disclaimer, too Rufford: Can't just pile a bunch of goodies in a bag Herman: look, if you want to argue quality, that's a red herrin Rufford: It's not the sum of of the parts Herman: most of your ODB scens are broken Herman: outright broken Tegramon: exactly, needs to go through birocracy, QA tests and the like Rufford: Your perspective. Ya, we're removing those too. Herman: things dont' fire, no ViConds, etc,. Herman: that's not even a fair argumebnt Tegramon: things dont fire at all? Herman: they are broken. outright broken. do we need to show exact details? Herman: yup Tegramon: no, but my general opinion is that Rufford stopped caring Herman: some things just don't fire At ALL Rufford: I know they are broken. Herman: okay, and the same applies to the ANW DB scens Herman: lots of problems Herman: and they aren't "just a matter of taste" Herman: things just don't fire/work Rufford: So why should we include PDB again? Herman: value for your customers. more things for them to play. Herman: you can say that you don't like our style, fine Herman: but, IMHO, the quality is high because they are Functional Tegramon: AGSI would do well to appreciate player's contribution, the standard ANW scenarios that ship with the game are for the most part worthless, if ppl would stick to them they'd throw the game out the window Rufford: Ignoring everything technical, you are still a divisive character with other content developers. It aint happening Herman: we know the ViConds Work Herman: right, Teg Herman: let's back it up Herman: technically, they are good for AGSI and the game. is this in agreement? Herman: they work, they add diversity, etc... right? Tegramon: i concure Rufford: A healthy diverse community is good. Tegramon: or however it's spelled Herman: so, the 'obstacle' is the "other content providers" Herman: is that where it would stick? Tegramon: meaning you Tegramon: well, he did said your a divisive character Herman: let's flesh that out Rufford: Haven't I fleshed it out in last few hours? Herman: no Rufford: AGSI doesn't like you. Tegramon: probably you did not impressed the people at AGSI with those buglists postings, DB Wars ... Herman: and so what? Rufford: That's as simple as I can make it. Herman: they like their wallet Rufford: We're not going to entangle ourselves with you. Herman: this will make them money. does anything else matter? Tegramon: they dont want to risk entangling with you Tegramon: lol, yeah Tegramon: it's standard corporate stuff, they dont wanna risk with divisive personal Tegramon: a company is as an empire, unloyalists die Herman: so, what is there to resolve? you won't look out for your own self interest due to egos and pettiness, for sake of a better word Herman: again, why does it have anything to do with me? Tegramon: Herman, they dont wanna risk, that's the drill Rufford: We're not going to include your database. Rufford: That's endorsing you. Herman: I'm not a rep of AGSI Rufford: We're not going to be a rep of you either. Tegramon: they dont want to deal with you at all, have any connection at all basicly :P Rufford: Well, I'm here and talking. Rufford: But I'm not endorsing PDB. Herman: yeah, and that really wasn't a choice Herman: then that's your loss and your users Rufford: Okay, so what else? Herman: okay, where were we Herman: addition Herman: right. let me see Herman: oh, testing Tegramon: Rufford, try to think a little clearly, that DB plus scenarios could really bolster the game, corporate crap aside :) Herman: but you don't want to be involved with me, so maybe it isn't worth mentioning Herman: no, AGSI can't do it Herman: that would mean that "the evil HH 'forced' them to do it and they can't be seen to not be in control..." Rufford: Your perspective. Herman: anyway, testing Rufford: I'm here because this is where the testing is going on. Tegramon: lol, during this discussion one if it would could really had written a basic harpoon engine in XNA Rufford: I ask you guys to play in the betas and collect the crash logs. Herman: if the goal of AGSI is to have a functional game, Herman: right Herman: let's deal with your point first Herman: you want us to test, yet you want us to do it 'your' way Herman: which is why there are so many bug Herman: your way doesn't work Herman: this Beta 6 is prime example of it Herman: if we had gotten everyone to update with it, no one would be playing right now Herman: since we all CTD upon starting a session Herman: no response? okay, let's deal with my testing idea, then Herman: you claim to want a functional game Rufford: Well Rufford: What was the point? Herman: oh, sorry. go on Herman: the point is, your process is broken. badly Rufford: What was that the prime example of? Herman: the Beta 6 CTD Herman: you released it today and hoped that everyone would just grab it up Herman: if they had, they wouldn't be playing MP At ALL Herman: sure, it's beta Rufford: I put out a bad build. Public beta and public users were the first to do real testing. I'll make MP part of my release testing so that's my bad. Herman: but you want US to run your beta Herman: so, we are the only guys who run an ANW Server, so, in fact, we would be forcing everyone to use Beta product Herman: I spoke out against this to AoA, but he's the owner Herman: he decided to try and support your beta efforts Rufford: You went to the backups Herman: and this is what happens. I didn't think Beta was such a hot idea and preferred 393 Herman: right Herman: but most of your users are pretty simple Herman: you can see this from the fora Herman: very tech-nophobic sorts Rufford: They can move files. Herman: they cn Herman: can Tegramon: we're not that simple :P Herman: but you have seen many of their Q Herman: you are an exception ;) Tegramon: lol Herman: well, just realize that many folks don't like to do Beta Rufford: The beta is optional Herman: do I need to give you the links? Rufford: Or Tegramon: i'll still say that Rufford just does not care about this discussion anymore, or that's the "subliminal" message im getting Rufford: nevermind Herman: perhaps Rufford: No, I'm here Herman: okay Rufford: I'd be gone if I wanted. Herman: back to testing Tegramon: with your soul not really :P Herman: we have been polite and cordial Herman: so, what's there not to like? ;) * Rufford is listening to some Otis Redding special in the background. Tegramon: lol Herman: okay, back to testing Herman: so, you want a functional game CV32: gnite guys, play nice Herman: and your current beta group doesn't seem to be cutting the mustard (IMO) Tegramon: Heil CV32 :) Rufford: Night Herman: so, here's the Grand proposal Herman: very audacious, but I hope that it doesn't bore * Tegramon hears drumrolls in the background Herman: heheeh Herman: point #5? ;) Herman: okay, you need it tested Rufford: Ya Tegramon: ahead flank :) Herman: and it isn't getting done Herman: (or isn't getting done well, IMO) Herman: one reason for my reluctance in testing is that the goal posts kept moving Herman: you couldn't freeze the features * Herman and still haven't Herman: okay, so if you froze the features, it would mean that the game could have the crap tested out of it Herman: so, at least ONE point in time, this game might actually work Herman: you seem to be open to this Herman: (but your definition of 'freeze' seems to differ from everyone else's) Herman: is this pretty fair? Tegramon: you know Herman, during the period of this discussion, one could really code a basic structure for a Harpoon Clone engine in XNA, im amazed how Rufford is working in this rhythm Rufford: Ya, maybe I played a bit loose. Hooking hotkeys up to existing functions and adding text here and there... not what one can call features though in a feature list. Herman: you want me to shut up? ;) Tegramon: me? no, go on Herman: I know what you did Herman: I like what you did, but I am very self-disciplined Rufford: Teg: You and Don could get together on XNA Herman: I really wanted to ask you for stuff, but I stop Tegramon: i was musing on the fact that it's not really such a big deal of managing something like Harpoon, now i dont know how complex it is under the hood, but still ... Herman: I don't want to create more problems Tegramon: Rufford: he plans to use XNA? Rufford: He likes anything MS * Brains retches. Herman: Brains is still here?! ;) Rufford: Only to retch Tegramon: Rufford, the only motive i like MS is that they have good standards Tegramon: anyway Rufford: I'm pessimistic that anything different from now would happen if I froze features by all definitions Tegramon: what is the conclusion of this discussion? Rufford: In fact Herman: right Rufford: My 'features' are just giving the user more feedback from the GE Brains: Heh, I have plenty of other options, but I'd rather not add to the discussion. Herman: the change would be that it gives you a chance to get everything working Rufford: And have led to more bugs fixed Tegramon: make the game open source :) Rufford: I'm no longer revamping damage models and the like Rufford: So don't equate that with text output Herman: okay, so a true 'freeze' is possible Herman: no, a TRUE freeze. Herman: no exceptions, please Rufford: Yes but not likely Rufford: I will continue to add logging to the game Herman: that is at least a possibility Herman: here's the suggestion: Rufford: It is too valuable to testers Herman: if it was truly frozen, it would be possible to test the crap out of every function and command Herman: at the end of the process, everything will at least have been looked at Herman: that's the first prat Herman: part. Herman: that is rational, no? Tegramon: yeah Rufford: Yes but I disagree that I've added features. Herman: so, were are at: 1) Freeze everything 2) test the living crap out of it all Rufford: So 3.9.x was about a feature freeze Rufford: So test the crap out of it Rufford: Don't be scared of using the betas and when they screw up Herman: we can define what a freeze is later, okay? Rufford: Don't believe that the world is ending Herman: may I continue? Rufford: Please Herman: so, were are at: 1) Freeze everything 2) test the living crap out of it all Tegramon: it's just a game in the end Herman: 3) produce a list of problems found 4) present for rectification Herman: 5) repeat 3 & 4 until done Tegramon: that's standard management issue Herman: pretty straight forward, no? Herman: right Herman: but here's the kicker Tegramon: standard industry management stuff Rufford: What was 3.9.x but that (with a disagreement about the definition of freeze) Herman: standard problem solving procedure Rufford: (actually, disagreement about the definition of feature) Herman: for the sake of argument, let's say that your 390 was 'frozen' okay? you seem to be stuck on it Rufford: 3.9.1, .2, and .3 were the frozen parts Herman: for the purposes of this discussion, 390 was frozen Rufford: Okay Herman: fine. we'll use your definition for the rest of this proposal Herman: so, you want me (and others) to test the living hell out of your game Rufford: My contention here is that you are describing this process as a new thing when I believe I've been doing it for months. Herman: no, it is a new thing because you haven' been doing it Herman: the 'test the living crap out of it' isn't happening Herman: IMO Rufford: Your perspective. Herman: may I continue Rufford: Go ahead Herman: sorry, toilet break :) Tegramon: yet no conclusion from this discussion Rufford: I can and have gone around begging people to test the releases Rufford: I put up the releases on Matrix so they aren't under the evil AGSI umbrella Herman: I am trying to get to the final part of this proposal Rufford: I put a public Mantis up Tegramon: well, I play on the latest bleeding edge, not the "hidden" ones Rufford: Teg: At this time, they are the same Tegramon: Ruff: got it * Herman maybe "at this time", but not always Herman: okay Herman: so, back to the testing Herman: you want it tested and folks dont' want to do it (maybe) Herman: so, I propose to test the crap out of it Herman: I and others Herman: for the period of one month Herman: you get a report on everything and must address it Herman: if you don't want to change it, that's fine. you address it, at least Tegramon: make him sign a contract in blood that he addresses it :)O Herman: that should be enough to get it out Herman: no, there's a catch Herman: (as there always is ;) ) Herman: I don't care for your money, but I know that DonG cares about his money Rufford: Christ man, I've been asking people what issues they want resolved for at least a month now Herman: so, this won't be for free. (but there is a mony back guaranty) Herman: no Herman: you want it done your way and I am unwilling to do it your way. I don't know about the others Rufford: Then I came here to deal directly Herman: right Tegramon: hell, i'll beta test for free only to see the game working as it should Herman: right Herman: here is the catch Herman: testing in the real world costs money. I don't want your money, but I know that DonG won't appreciate anything he doesn't have to pay for. Tegramon: but if it's not gonna improve anything, in that time one could code something else Herman: (do I need to cite examples)? Rufford: Let me check my anus for extra funds Rufford: Sorry,All this talk of the riches of AGSI gets me pretty pissed Herman: please. no need to be abusive Tegramon: if only money were so easy to make Herman: like I said, there is a money back guaranty Herman: allow me to finish? Rufford: No one is stopping you Tegramon: Herman, how much are you thinking? Herman: so, I have imputed a value for one month of intensive testing. Let's say it is $5,000 Tegramon: lol Rufford: hahaha Herman: for this value, you get pretty much 24/7 testing AoA: Whats up Herman: let me finish Tegramon: AoA, come to join the war eh? :) Rufford: No one gets paid 5k AoA: Are you still having discussions about the politics of the game?!!! lol Herman: let me finish Rufford: Yes AoA Tegramon: AoA, it's educative in a way Herman: for this, you get a list of everything that is broken Herman: after one month Tegramon: you see the commoner vs corporation at work Herman: this list is given to you AoA: I know it is... I take it with humour... some don't, just be careful! Herman: you might have XXX number of issues Herman: all detailed. all supported Rufford: A coporation of all of 3 people. Herman: now, after 1 month Tegramon: you said there were also others besides you don and darren Herman: you get a month to do your own testing (however you like) Herman: for every bug / issue you find that 'we' missed or reported incorrectly, you deduct $50 from the bill Herman: find 100 things we screwed up and missed? pay notyhing Herman: now, I don't want your money Herman: I dont' care who you give your money to Herman: give it to United Way Rufford: We don't have 5k Tegramon: give it to me Herman: as long as it is out of AGSI pockets, it will work for me Rufford: So that settles that Herman: back up Herman: let's continue with this Herman: do you see the value of it? Herman: do you see it as functional? Tegramon: my Mastercard is open for AGSI donations, even AoA would appreciate a donation Rufford: And it's not a realistic way to solve all of our problems Herman: please, guys. let's see if something can be done Herman: okay, why won't it work? Tegramon: Herman, you really dont think AGSI would shell 5000$ ... Herman: if you find 100 problems 'we' missed, you pay nothing Rufford: So wait Rufford: 5k possibly to you Herman: No, but I know that AGSI won't appreciate anything they don't have to pay for Rufford: Then we invest at least 5k finding another 100 Herman: no Herman: that 5k is 0k if you find 100 problems we missed Herman: so, why is that bad for you? Herman: you don't pay anyone anything if you find errors in 'our' work Rufford: We pay someone 5k we don't have Herman: who? Rufford: Either you and another tester Rufford: or Herman: then they pay you Rufford: and=or Herman: and that is bad, how? Herman: are you not getting value from your money? Rufford: Then we pay me again to work that 40 hours overtime a week Rufford: To fix it Herman: that is $5k worth of good testing, no? Tegramon: they dont have the money though Rufford: When we get it for free Tegramon: you get 5k overtime a week? :) Herman: Teg: don't focus on the money, please Herman: if the idea is workable, let's tackle it after Rufford: Premise was Rufford: Testing is lacking to say the least Tegramon: ah, you want to make a point Rufford: I agree Rufford: So you want to get paid for testing Rufford: Or have someone else paid for testing Herman: no Herman: I dont' want the money in 'my pocket' or anyone doing the testing Herman: don't want or need it Herman: the problem is, AGSI doesn't value anything they don't have to pay for Herman: if you pay nothing, you just ignore it. simple as that Rufford: You think the NDA we put on our volunteers is bad, wait til you get involved in our contracts. AoA: I am happy and thankful to all of you who make MP possible... it was my childhood dream and now I am living it! Herman: by 'potentially' paying a sum, you won't be wasting time on it Rufford: hah Rufford: Who finds the extra 100 bugs? Tegramon: AoA, dont want 5k? :))) * Brains resist the urge to mention Harpoon Online. Herman: what if there aren't 100 bugs to find? * Rufford please don't. We're all dreaming about that MMO inflow. Rufford: How do you prove that? Rufford: Then Herman: okay, let's get back to the concept Rufford: How do we prove this bug isn't equivalent to that Rufford: Or this bug isn't a bug Rufford: Maybe it's a feature Herman: proof is easy. it is either replicable or it isn't Tegramon: you bring a list of features Tegramon: and we separate them from bugs Rufford: So look at the public Mantis and see the issues I've resolved Herman: just a sec Herman: brb Rufford: Things don't work out so simple guys. Tegramon: especially when there's cash involved AoA: you guys should chat less and play more! Tegramon: ppl want guarantees Rufford: Agreed AoA but sometimes talking is necessary. AoA: ;) Tegramon: Hymn to the Red October really goes with this discussion Brains: Rufford: If that was in response to me, I was referring to the MP Harpoon game that was played a decade or so ago. Rufford: Oh really? Rufford: What sort of setup? AoA: that was a HC mp attempt, right? Tegramon: the AOL multiplayer stuff? Tegramon: AOL dropped it, no big userbase Rufford: When they went unlimited? * Brains can't remember if it was AOL but it was something like that. Tegramon: it was AOL Rufford: Compuserve Rufford: Ah Brains: Resembled (if not based on) Classic too. *chuckle* Rufford: Who was the publisher? Tegramon: something like kimset, or kismet Rufford: Publishers tend to play fast and loose with source code if you let them Tegramon: some noname brand Brains: Konami? Rufford: I'm told we lost a lot of utilties when h2 changed hands Tegramon: lol, nah Rufford: The source was 'lost' Brains: Kesmai's Brains: Yeah, apparently a lot of Harpoon source code was "lost" over the years. Tegramon: yeah, Kesmai Rufford: I've only got the AAR Rufford: Maybe this is my chapter * Rufford is suddenly very depressed Tegramon: Kesmai's Harpoon OnLine Tegramon: a glitter of hope, but failed during that time Herman: back Rufford: I got 15 minutes Tegramon: Herman, maybe you should make a petition about all this stuff online Rufford: We are considering a bounty system for bugs Tegramon: we're after all customers :P Herman: ok Herman: okay Tegramon: get ppl to sign it Rufford: 10 confirmed bugs gets you some dollars Herman: no, that's an ongoing thing that I don't think will work Tegramon: in that case im rich Tegramon: when does it start? :) Herman: no, you keep mistaking that someone wants to make $$ from this Herman: we want a functional game Herman: so, can we back up a bit? Rufford: Feel free Herman: my idea was to get it done in a month Herman: I said $5k, but let's just say $XX since it seems more palatable to you Rufford: I don't like the concept honestly Rufford: I don't think it's very sound Herman: so, it is: 1) Freeze everything 2) test the crap out of it 3) present list after one month 4) resolve or repudiate list in one month Herman: understood Herman: I just think it will work Herman: this 'bounty' stuff wont' IMO Rufford: Why not? Herman: this idea gets it over and done with Herman: no ongoing nonsense Herman: we want a game by i.e Dec 31, 2008 Herman: this gets it done Herman: or as close as we will ever come Rufford: Alright Tegramon: bounty ideea is good, not ncesarly money, i'd like a harpoon shirt or something, there are other ways of recompensation Rufford: I'll toss it around. Maybe someone will like it Herman: of course, I know that AGSI will re-open the feature floodgates after Dec 31, but it will at least work for one day Herman: I don't think it's fair Rufford: Teg, we do that for the testers that produce after they sign up with us Herman: it's an idea Tegramon: so they do it Tegramon: nice Herman: now, your point of what is a bug/feature is good, too Rufford: A polo shirt with Team Harpoon on it Herman: that's fair Rufford: 3.9.x was our chance for wrapping it all up. Tegramon: yeah, that's a nice thing from AGSI Herman: as before, the "testers" aren't in it for the money Herman: you get paid for your work fixing, already Rufford: Trying to get paper rule sets signed by Bond for prizes too Rufford: It doesn't look likely until they print H5 Brains: (Make sure the rule sets are the new rules coming out!) Tegramon: lol Rufford: ( They don't have any of the old left lying around so it'd have to be ) Tegramon: good point Rufford: ( Still begging for 3 and 4.1 in binders but they'd have to print a lot to get one) * Brains wonders where his copy of 3 is... Tegramon: i still hope this discussion reached a sane conclusion/resolution Herman: nope Herman: already off on a tangent :) Tegramon: so many hours in vain? :) Herman: yup Rufford: Nah, I think we exchanged enough ideas to merit some of it Herman: current situation isn't working Herman: and nothing here is up for changing that status Herman: so, AGSI continues to limp along Rufford: Right Herman: or did I miss something substantive? Rufford: So what else? Rufford: So on your ideas Rufford: Two of them I'm outright saying no Rufford: The last two Herman: no, that was it. I believe that the testing proposal was a sure-fire no loser for AGSI. guess you have a different opinion Rufford: I won't be involved in them Herman: okay Rufford: In the first 3 I would say we are moving towards them or, in my view, in the middle of working on them. Rufford: So I like them Rufford: Just think I'm already doing them Herman: 1) opening up all the fora / systems 2) open betas 3) ? Rufford: So still some disagreement there Herman: sorry, which were the three you were thinking about, then? Tegramon: freeze system and the like Tegramon: there was another list Rufford: Trying to find 1. I believe your 1 and 2 were actually 2 and 3 AoA: I am sorry to interrupt, can I ask a newbie question? AoA: How do the successful companies do this beta/debugging process?? Rufford: Ah, 1. freeze the feature list Rufford: I believe I've done so for 3.9.x and have only given the user more feedback of existing features. Brains: AoA: That is a complicated question far beyond the time and effort you want to devote. Trust me. Rufford: 2 and 3 were opening up of the beta process Rufford: De facto, this has happened Rufford: Trust Brains but go ahead and ask Rufford: oh Rufford: They hire testers Rufford: Have teams of them Rufford: QA Managers Rufford: Etc Rufford: They have budgets and investors Rufford: Or on the other end of the spectrum, closer to us Rufford: Is open source Herman: quit blaming the $$, will ya? Herman: look, I owned businesses, too Rufford: It's reality Herman Rufford: What kind of business? Herman: if I can't find $5k in my right pocket as an owner, I'm not in a business. I'm in a hobby Rufford: Because businesses are not all the same Brains: Rufford: No offense, but AGSI's method is pretty dang far from any F/OSS setup I've ever heard of... Herman: I owned restaurantsw AoA: Brains, I trust you... I just had the feeling that there must be out there an industry standard for this process... I am sure there are good reasons why they do not apply to our Harpoon case. Tegramon: catering food makes good money Herman: one gas station Tegramon: lol Rufford: We depend on volunteer testers for everything Herman: Crimony, it's more management than AGSI has ever done Herman: shees Brains: AoA: Game companies are seldom even what you would call "successful" in this are Brains: +a Rufford: Very true Brains Rufford: So in the end is this Rufford: No one is willing to invest the money (and yes, money=time=accomplishment) to make this game perfect Rufford: No one believes its a sound investment Rufford: Except maybe me Brains: Rufford: Slight modification... Nobody believes that the terms DonG offers makes it a sound investment. (Regardless of whether DonG is smart / savy / etc or not.) Herman: better, Brains * Brains is pretty sure that "nobody" is a strong word too. Rufford: Alright, a long list of people do not believe it is worth investment Rufford: Still, I spend my days debugging and improving Rufford: Nights too Herman: it does have potential Tegramon: how much do you make Ruff? Rufford: not your business Herman: just the wrong man at the helm, perhaps * Brains notes that Rufford makes it not "nobody" at least. Rufford: Just note that I'm still paying student loans Tegramon: Rufford, got it :) AoA: Russell, I thank you for that time. Herman: it really is a management problem Rufford: Maybe I'll offer them an investment plan Tegramon: alright, it's morning here, it was a fun discussion though Herman: the three that you are considering is: 1) Freeze features 2) opening fora 3) Opening beta AoA: Time that most likely you are not compensated. Herman: problem is you already think that you have them solved. and this is a major disconnect Brains: Rufford: Suggest they go F/OSS. While they are recovering from their stroke, offer the investment plan. Rufford: No Rufford: I said they are in progress Rufford: Brains: hehehe Rufford: I'd be black bagged Rufford: And despite the CTD today I'm happy about our efforts for 3.9.4 Rufford: So try it out everybody! Herman: how? Herman: you got a new Beta 7 for us? Rufford: Will have a new build out within a day or two Rufford: Ya maybe Rufford: I have it solved now Tegramon: Rufford, are there any beta registration requirements except the fact that I owe the game? Rufford: Think you could keep it under your hats that I'm giving certain testers different versions? Rufford: Nope, just need to sign the agreement and have an SN Herman: sheesh. the more things 'change'... Tegramon: ok Herman: and shut your mouth for 5 yrs Herman: just as long as you are willing to do that... Brains: 5 years? Sheesh. Rufford: Or we'll put you in the stocks Rufford: Throw bad fruit at you Tegramon: well, why not? as long as you give something back to the comunity Tegramon: we all love the game * Rufford has more of a hate/hate relationship with it. AoA: lol Tegramon: hehehe Tegramon: Ruff, you should play one of us some time Tegramon: Herman would be honored lol * Herman Teg cheats Rufford: You would school me easily and I have plenty to do. Tegramon: it's impossible to cheat lol Rufford: Oh AoA: Russell, did you ever get hooked up with it, or was it a job for you, since the beggining? * Brains is married, but he's pretty sure that he didn't agree to not do anything for 5years after any dissolution of the marriage. Herman: no, it's possible. just ask AoA Rufford: Sign up for the beta testing and we'll giveyou all the cheat codes . . . . End of excerpt
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