Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: wfzimmerman

Polish marauder defenses? 

Against inexperienced players in other wargames (eg Computer War in Europe), I've observed that occasionally the newb will forget to set up blocking ZOCs and leave a path open to a German resource or port.  The AI should be able to recognize open ZOCs and take advantage of them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: wfzimmerman

Polish marauder defenses? 

Against inexperienced players in other wargames (eg Computer War in Europe), I've observed that occasionally the newb will forget to set up blocking ZOCs and leave a path open to a German resource or port.  The AI should be able to recognize open ZOCs and take advantage of them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

quote:

ORIGINAL: wfzimmerman

Polish marauder defenses? 

Against inexperienced players in other wargames (eg Computer War in Europe), I've observed that occasionally the newb will forget to set up blocking ZOCs and leave a path open to a German resource or port.  The AI should be able to recognize open ZOCs and take advantage of them.

The polish units don’t just want to wander into Germany in fear of risking giving the +.025 enemy in home country Production Multiple or the +0.25 Enemy land attack bonus if the attack a GE unit.

I experimented with a Southern Marauder defence, in Katowice is the 1-4 INF DIV and the 3-4 CAV, the plan was to go for conquer Czechoslovakia or to destroy the oil filed but supply is a issue, the interesting hexes is just out of one impulse reach for the polish units. May be if the HQI also was in Katowice , but the defence of the rest of Poland is very weak. And it’s easy for the German to spoil the plan.

* Southern Marauder defence

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

Putting the cavalry in Poznan with the option to move to Berlin could indeed be included into Polish setups and be part of the AI consideration. It does not weaken the defence of Poland by beeing setup in Poznan so you do not lose anything by doing so (except some mobility that Poland seldom has use for anyway).

But before a Polish Unit advances into Germany it should look into if there is any real gains to be made by doing so.


-Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

Putting the cavalry in Poznan with the option to move to Berlin could indeed be included into Polish setups and be part of the AI consideration. It does not weaken the defence of Poland by beeing setup in Poznan so you do not lose anything by doing so (except some mobility that Poland seldom has use for anyway).

But before a Polish Unit advances into Germany it should look into if there is any real gains to be made by doing so.

The Sequence of play makes it tricky to now if it is worth to advance into Germany (especially if you play with that you can save oil).

In the end of turn you do things in this order.
1) Production
2) Conquest
3) Factory Destruction (remember that a corps must be in supply to destroy a factory and can only destroy a blue factory)

Let me give 2 examples why the AI should avoid advancing into Germany.

Example 1:
1) A Polish unit captures Berlin and is in supply from Poznan. In the production step Germanys production is increased by the Polish presence with .25. Germany fails to produce for the factories in Berlin but make up for the factory production lost with higher production multiple. (Germanys production goes form 17 to 20 gaining 3 build points and may save some oil for the factories not producing).
2) Poland survies to fight on.
3) No factory is destroyed by the Polish unit in Berlin because all factories in Berlin are red in MWIF.

Example 2:
1) A Polish unit captures another city with a blue factory (ex. Stettin) and is in supply from Poznan. Germany captures Lodz and Warsaw. In the production step Germanys production is increased by the Polish presence with .25. Germany fails to produce for the factory in Stettin but gains more production with the higher production multiple (Prod goes from 17 to 22 (not counting the polish factory) and saves some extra oil).
2) Poland is conquered and the polish unit in Stettin is removed.
3) No factory is destroyed.

In the above example Germany could perhaps set the Polish unit in Stettin out of supply if he feared he could not conquer Poland during this turn. With the option of saving oil Germany lose little (just delayed production) with a unit out of supply in Stettin.

-Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

that is just wrong

germany has always had 19 factories ...13 blue and 6 red .... when have it changed to 11 blue and 8 red ....???

...and I think that the rules said that there can only be 1 red factories in each hex

quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

No, in tabletop WIF:FE all the factories in Berlin are red.

But yes, it means they can't be blown up by the Poles. Only strategic bombardment can do for them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Plain Ian
Well the allied bombers will have to use Tallboys or something as it looks like the factories are underground? I can't see any factories in Berlin in Peskpesk's screenshots? Only a resource which looks like it should be in the hex to the east?

quote:

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

I’m thinking about a rule for the Polish planes setup, here is a start to the discussion going.

Other factor to include could be if the Polish planes are fight (the number of GE fighter), the risk of ground strikes during a forward setup etc, etc.


Threat that USSR claims Eastern Poland before Polish planes are rebased

IF USSR has plan ControlEasternPoland on impulse one OR
USSR has plan ControlEasternPoland on impulse two AND
CW has no AirMoves over for Polish planes on impulse one

THEN

Threat that USSR claims Eastern Poland before Polish planes are rebased

Threat that Polish planes in Eastern Poland are overrun before they can rebase

IF The Polish planes is in Eastern Poland AND
CW has no AirMoves over for Polish planes on impulse one AND
At least one of A OR B below

A)
Germany has a two organized LandUnit AND
They are can each reach a different Polish plane hex in two impulses AND
They are not blocked by ZOC AND
They are in supply or can be put in supply

B)
Germany has a organized LandUnit AND
It can each reach a t Polish plane hex in two impulses AND
It’ not blocked by ZOC AND
It’sin supply or can be put in supply

THEN

Threat that Polish planes in Eastern Poland are overrun before they can rebase

--Forward- Or Rearsetup for Polish planes
* Forward setup is considered when A or B

A) Threat that Polish planes in Eastern Poland are overrun before they can rebase
B) Threat that USSR claims Eastern Poland before polish planes are rebased

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

I’m thinking about a rule for the Polish planes setup, here is a start to the discussion going.

Other factor to include could be if the Polish planes are fight (the number of GE fighter), the risk of ground strikes during a forward setup etc, etc.


Threat that USSR claims Eastern Poland before Polish planes are rebased

IF USSR has plan ControlEasternPoland on impulse one OR
USSR has plan ControlEasternPoland on impulse two AND
CW has no AirMoves over for Polish planes on impulse one

THEN

Threat that USSR claims Eastern Poland before Polish planes are rebased

Threat that Polish planes in Eastern Poland are overrun before they can rebase

IF The Polish planes is in Eastern Poland AND
CW has no AirMoves over for Polish planes on impulse one AND
At least one of A OR B below

A)
Germany has a two organized LandUnit AND
They are can each reach a different Polish plane hex in two impulses AND
They are not blocked by ZOC AND
They are in supply or can be put in supply

B)
Germany has a organized LandUnit AND
It can each reach a t Polish plane hex in two impulses AND
It’ not blocked by ZOC AND
It’sin supply or can be put in supply

THEN

Threat that Polish planes in Eastern Poland are overrun before they can rebase

--Forward- Or Rearsetup for Polish planes
* Forward setup is considered when A or B

A) Threat that Polish planes in Eastern Poland are overrun before they can rebase
B) Threat that USSR claims Eastern Poland before polish planes are rebased

Your impulse numbers are slightly off. The Axis moves during the odd impulses and the Allies during the even. The USSR can only occupy eastern Poland on even impulses.

quote:

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

Poland setup AI

quote:

ORIGINAL: npilgaard

Very nice work on all those minor-setups, peskpesk - seems like you have taken pretty much all possible variants into consideration for each and every minor country - impressive!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave3L

Also, keep in mind that an empty Konigsberg can be ZoC'ed by a corps in Danzig, which would place all of the East Prussia units OoS.  That might only be an annoyance, but if Germany sets up a weaker than normal Northern Army, you could really throw a wrench in the works by doing that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Incy

There's a reserve in koenigsberg, I belive.

quote:

ORIGINAL: yvesp

In a non France first setup, the foremost point in the polish setup is to delay the conquest of Poland.
It is not impossible to reach the end of Sept/Oct with Varshaw under siege, but uncaptured.
It has happened that bad weather rolls kept Varshaw alive and kicking till January/February.
I remember a game where Poland fell only in March/April ; needless to say that the German player was aghast (he did not commit nearly enough troops east to be overwhelming, trying for an early Benelux attack, and paid the price). Anyway, it all went to nothing when he rolled some lucky dice in France and took Paris in May/June...

It is a real pain for the German who sees the time fly by when he knows he'll have to shift all these units back to the western front. Idealy, he wants to begin that shift back in the first turn, at impulse three or four.

Doing so requires that the Poles actually use their airforce, for the exclusive defense of Varshaw, where they'll end up the turn (hopefully). The fighter has to be used to try and prevent any strike (after the surprise impulse) on Varshaw proper (the odds are poor, I know), or protect the bomber (which helps a lot against the first assault on Varshaw). The HQ is setup in Brest-Litovsk (protected by the woods against GS), the 5-3 somewhere in range of Varshaw, as at least one other units.

For the other units, I don't recall well (it has been long since I last played). The point of the whole setup is to force the german to chose between slow crowling in ZOCs or attempting assaults with odds that give a chance of flipping units.

Reaching Nov/Dec with Poland alive is a strategic success for the allies as it may delay the German juggernaut in it's strike west.
Such an objective must be accounted for by the AIO (i.e. it is more valuable than destroying one German unit or keeping one or two pilots alive).

Yves

quote:

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

Yes, but if there is overwhelming German forces (particularly FTR) then you are better off sending the Polish planes into interment via. the Baltic States.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

I think we'll have to agree to disagree; or perhaps I'm just used to 'conservative' German play where they do bring overwhelming ground and air forces.