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Starships Unlimited vs. SE IV - 3/1/2002 8:16:00 AM   
Blackadar

 

Posts: 1
Joined: 2/28/2002
Status: offline 		Ok, I admit it. I'm totally a newbie. Heck, I hadn't even heard of Starships Unlimited until I read the review today in Computer Games mag - 4 1/2 stars. For the programmers, the review was fairly appealing... I loved MOO I & II and have been looking for a sequel ever since. I tried SE IV, but found it to be too complicated for my tastes. I might try some of the mods eventually, including the Star Wars and Star Trek mods, but right now I just can't get excited about the game. So, for those who have some experience with both, what sort of differences are there between Starships Unlimited and SE IV and which one would you recommend...and why?

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- 3/1/2002 10:43:00 AM   
madmax88

 

Posts: 143
Joined: 1/14/2002
From: Montreal, Canada
Status: offline 		Basically, SEiv and sudg are very similar in design.
I'd say SEiv has a more serious feel to it. Many units, many many planets to colonize, many many many technologies and much much more constantly keeping you on your toes as there is so much to do and manage.
While Sudg has a little less of all that, it let focus on combat and exploration. One ship being all you can afford at first, you end up putting a lot more attention into it. You carefully research technology and upgrade your ships with it, always considering what the opponent has onboard so you can outsmart him.
But in major part, it's the combat in sudg that makes it all better. It's a lot more than moving a ship from square to quare firing in any direction, it's moving accurately, aligning your weapons, taping energy and all the detail put into combat that's worth the change.
It's well simpler, but not necessarily cheaper.
I say : enjoy!

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Post #: 2
STUN vs. SE IV - 3/12/2002 1:28:30 AM   
Ghostbear

 

Posts: 14
Joined: 1/8/2002
From: Dayton, OH
Status: offline 		Comparing these two products isn't as simple as you think.

SE IV is designed to take WEEKS to play. You can control or do almost anything you have ever thought of in science fiction.

STUN plays very fast, and, I think, ultimately lacks depth. That doesn't mean that it wasn't fun the first few times.

If anyone is interested in comparing more detailed concepts let me know.

GB

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Ghostbear

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Post #: 3
- 3/12/2002 4:38:29 PM   
Unknown_Enemy

 

Posts: 277
Joined: 9/10/2001
From: France, Paris
Status: offline 		Combat.

In stun, the game resolves itself arout combat.
Trade and diplomacy are just ways to delay a war.
When there are only 2 races left, begins the Final War.
And of course, combat is really resolved in an interesting
way (if you disable combat IA of course...)

You will get different opinion of course, but to mine, SE 4 gets boring after a few hours of game.

Try it a make your own opinion.

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Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wagh'nagl fhtagn.
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Post #: 4
SE IV - 3/14/2002 1:17:29 AM   
Ghostbear

 

Posts: 14
Joined: 1/8/2002
From: Dayton, OH
Status: offline 		Unknown Enemy et al.,

I'm not debating your like or dislike of SE IV.

However, a "normal" game of SE IV (single player) takes 20 - 100 hours of real time. So, if you get bored after a few hours, you really haven't gotten to what I consider the meat of the game.

STUN has almost a diametrically opposed APPROACH to the same subject matter in that it generates tension by the continually increasing pace of real time.

SE IV is purely turn-based, and is designed for long term strategic planning. Fleet sizes are orders of magnitude bigger. And, most interestingly (from my perspective), you may not even meet your chief rival until 40-50 hours into the game.

Finally, SE IV lets you do almost anything you can imagine. Mine warp points, build space stations, defensive satellites, etc. etc..

Any you can't beat a late game dreadnaught with a scout.

GB

I liked both, but got tired of STUN much quicker. I still fire up SE IV (and just got the Gold version) in much the same way I occasionally fire up Alpha Centarii.

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Ghostbear

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Post #: 5
- 3/15/2002 1:48:39 AM   
madmax88

 

Posts: 143
Joined: 1/14/2002
From: Montreal, Canada
Status: offline 		They're both interesting games.
Designed differently.

Of course, SEIV has more depth. But don't forget it's originally a 20:1 staff ratio. Andrew practically designed the original stun on his own.
Few changes were brought to the sequel.

I must also agree with Unknown_enemy, Combat is the major difference between the two. Combat in sudg is a lot funnier and sophisticated in it's design.

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Post #: 6
Combat is funner - 3/15/2002 4:28:37 AM   
Ghostbear

 

Posts: 14
Joined: 1/8/2002
From: Dayton, OH
Status: offline 		I certainly don't debate that combat was ORIGINALLY funner in STUN than in SE IV, and it mostly retained its charm the second, third, fourth, and fifth games. But after that, the limited tech tree started showing its ugly head.

There was a comment about SE IV having 20:1 staff ratio, I have to take issue with that. The PRICE is not 20 times lower on STUN!

Don't get me wrong, I like STUN, I love SE IV. I don't begrudge the money I spent on either game (both are "independents" BTW).

I like games that take weeks of real time to complete, I also like games that can be done in an evening. I like space-based 4X games in general.

BECAUSE I like them, I criticize them. Otherwise I'd have long since left this board behind. I keep hanging around in case there is a big patch or a cool mod and I can get the game out again.

I can't say the same for Emporer of Dune (serious dog) or Steel Soldiers (worse dog) which I played for a few hours then tossed the CD up against the wall.

As the Shadows might have said, "Only through conflict can you improve yourself".

GB

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Ghostbear

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Post #: 7
- 3/15/2002 4:44:28 AM   
madmax88

 

Posts: 143
Joined: 1/14/2002
From: Montreal, Canada
Status: offline 		That definitely.

A patch with an expanded tech tree, ships designs, races, etc. would be cool.

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Post #: 8
Interested in SE IV - 3/25/2002 3:09:52 AM   
JonK2002

 

Posts: 5
Joined: 2/8/2002
Status: offline 		I've been thinking about purchasing SE IV but would like to learn more about it. To give an idea of my taste in games, let's just say I've been flamed by FPS adicts for saying that Alpha Centauri is one of the greatest PC games ever.

What is the learning curve like for SE IV? How do the graphics and sounds compare to other strategy games like SMAC or divided galaxies? How is the documentation? I loved divided galaxies but the cd-only manual drove me crazy.

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Post #: 9
- 3/25/2002 10:25:00 AM   
madmax88

 

Posts: 143
Joined: 1/14/2002
From: Montreal, Canada
Status: offline 		Why don't you just try it.

It's probably the best way for you to get an idea.
Download the demo. ;)

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Post #: 10
SE IV - 3/25/2002 7:48:34 PM   
Ghostbear

 

Posts: 14
Joined: 1/8/2002
From: Dayton, OH
Status: offline 		Greetings:


[I]I've been thinking about purchasing SE IV but would like to learn more about it. To give an idea of my taste in games, let's just say I've been flamed by FPS adicts for saying that Alpha Centauri is one of the greatest PC games ever. [/I]

I concur that SMAC is one of the greatest games ever. Strangely though, I can't stomach CIV. I think its the ability to craft your own units that makes ALL the difference.

SEIV lets you craft your own units! You can also do almost anything you can think of (inter system travel is ONLY done by warp points, however). Want space stations, there's three kinds. Want to build a mine field, no problem. Put defensive satellites in orbit or at a warp point, gotcha covered.

The tech tree is very big. My games usually take 2 - 4 weeks of real time (playing about every day). So, if you like EPIC, this is your game.


[I]What is the learning curve like for SE IV? How do the graphics and sounds compare to other strategy games like SMAC or divided galaxies? How is the documentation? I loved divided galaxies but the cd-only manual drove me crazy.[/I]

Learning curve - there's a lot to cover and the interface is more complex than most (though almost everything can be done with a mouse).

It's a lot like SMAC in many ways. Its almost diametrically opposed to STUN:DG since its all turn based and takes a long time to play. The graphics are utilitarian, and purely 2d. However, the game is almost entirely customizable and in the Gold version, there are a bunch of really cool player mods included.

The docs in the Gold version are pretty good, and the in game stuff is all you could want it to be.

It has a very active community (http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi)

Bottom line: I love games that take weeks to play and SEIV is probably my all time favorite game.

GB

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Ghostbear

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Post #: 11
Thanks - 3/26/2002 1:38:48 AM   
JonK2002

 

Posts: 5
Joined: 2/8/2002
Status: offline 		Thanks for the info, Ghostbear. I rarely download demos with my 56k dial up modem, don't have the patience. SEIV does really sound like my kind of game. I read some reviews at pcgr.com, and they also gave the impession I'd like the game. I will probably be ordering it soon.....

I agree that designing units is one of AC's great features. I love putting colony pods on rover chassis; reducing travel time makes them much less vulnerable to mindworms or enemies. Armored air units are also fun.

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Post #: 12
- 3/26/2002 5:30:18 AM   
madmax88

 

Posts: 143
Joined: 1/14/2002
From: Montreal, Canada
Status: offline 		Oh, yes. The magic of 56k connections. ;)

Overall, SeIV is now a classic so you can't go wrong trying it.
And even though you've got a slow connection, consider trying downloading SE 3 ... you might get the feel of the game even though it's nothing like se4 (graphically).

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Post #: 13
SEIV Gold - 3/26/2002 10:56:51 PM   
Ghostbear

 

Posts: 14
Joined: 1/8/2002
From: Dayton, OH
Status: offline 		Like STUN:DG, SEIV is an "independent" I think if you look at their forums you'd be Stunned (pun) at how active their fan base is. However, I say vote with your wallet and buy the Gold version.

My one quibble with SMAC was the games never got to the last hull (the one after the tank). Also, the tank and the last hull were really expensive and just didn't seem to hold up well enough in combat to warrant the expense.

Anyway, go buy SEIV Gold.

GB

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Ghostbear

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Post #: 14
SEIV?? - 4/14/2002 3:24:07 PM   
DeMoN

 

Posts: 3
Joined: 4/14/2002
From: IL
Status: offline 		what the heck is SEIV??? sorry been out of gaming world for a year and I am dying to look for games like these. You know research ship -----> Build Ship -----> explore universe -----> colonize worlds and build empire -----> KILL ENTIRE RACES. . .

*sigh* I miss doing that stuff.

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The_DeMoN_MuRPHY. . . if it can go wrong IT WILL. . .

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Post #: 15
SEIV - 4/15/2002 10:16:19 PM   
Ghostbear

 

Posts: 14
Joined: 1/8/2002
From: Dayton, OH
Status: offline 		SEIV Gold is Space Empires IV Gold (version).

You can find all you ever wanted to know at http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi.

Its a very old school game, turn based, 2d graphics, etc., but its the deepest, most customizable, very addicting 4X game I've ever played.

GB

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Ghostbear

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Post #: 16
- 4/16/2002 7:31:56 AM   
rosary

 

Posts: 1162
Joined: 10/8/2001
From: U.S.A.
Status: offline 		I've played space empires IV gold(shareware) and STUN(shareware). I enjoyed STUN much more. I'm a huge galactic empire game fan. I'm not saying that SEIV is a bad game. SEIV just didn't impress me as much as Starships Unlimited.

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Post #: 17
- 4/16/2002 1:24:31 PM   
Arralen


Posts: 827
Joined: 5/21/2000
Status: offline 		I''ve clocked quite some hours with SMAC/X, SE3+SE4 and Starships Unlimited (not divided Galaxies, though).

my humble opinion:

SE4
At first, Space Empire is as well an one-man product as SU is .. no 20 men staff working on it, ever.
There are some gamers doing mods for it, but those aren't with the programming team.
SE4 gets boring after hundred hours of micromanagement. The GUI is a piece of **** - they should have beefed-up the original SE3/SE2 one with fancier graphics if they needed those to sell to the mass market, the new interface is plain horror ... every single action has you pointing the mouse into the map, to the learn-them-pics-by-hard-buttons way up on the screen, than back on the map.
maybe 50 times each turn.
for 200 turns.
Never seen a game that lets you clock so much mileage with the mouse ...

The AI is dumb as bread .. no matter what research lists, build lists or whatever lists the modders produce, it will always screw up - as it just follows those lists and can't react to what's going on in the game at all.


SMAC/X
Something totally different .. and to me the best game of the Civ-family ever.
It has some drawbacks, too (unit workshop layout, bugs, etc. ..) those are because the game was rushed out of the door unfinished (as usual nowadays) and patched up to playable level afterwards, but what's the greatest thing about it is that (mostly) everything (units, cities, story, game mechanics etc.) "blends in", combined with an (mostly) easy-n-quick to use interface.


Spaceships Ul:
As it centers around the spaceships, not the economic build-up on/in your colonies/cities/whatever, there's much more action around, and the MM needed is just that - needed to make a difference at some points, not to wear everything down.

So it's a little bit like SPWAW-(Mega)campaigning in space, with some operational/strategic background like some of which we micht see in CL ..

A.

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Post #: 18
Arralen et al - 4/17/2002 12:37:23 AM   
Ghostbear

 

Posts: 14
Joined: 1/8/2002
From: Dayton, OH
Status: offline 		To begin with, all three games SMAC/X, SEIV and STUN are WELL worth the money.

STUN:dG (IMHO) is the FIRST to get boring. Its quite fun, but after the third or fourth game, it simply becomes pure repetition.

SMAC/X (IMHO) is one of the very few games that I will suddenly, and for no explicable reason, get a hankering to play again. I've developed quite a distaste for CIV games in general (after several hundred hours), so much so that I can't even boot CIV III without puking. However, SMAC always brings me back. I think its the design your own units feature that CIV has never had.

SEIV - the modding community is quite large, and several are extensive enough to be almost an entirely different game. Unfortunately, the AI is pretty dead, but its still enough of a challenge to make it worth playing over and over. Unfortuantely, a big map becomes unplayable in the end game. In fact, I've never actually finished a game. Of course, I've played probably 500 hours of SEIV, and have never considered not finishing a problem.

Given that the mainstream companies no longer seem to be able to put even a relatively decent strategy game on the market without making it suitable for morons (or Apple users rwg) I'd be happy to pay money for any of these games or their sequels. (noting that SMAC is not from an indie).

GB

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Ghostbear

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Post #: 19
Opinions ....opinions.... - 4/25/2002 2:44:19 AM   
rhohltjr


Posts: 536
Joined: 4/27/2000
From: When I play pacific wargames, I expect smarter AI.
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by rosary
[B]I've played space empires IV gold(shareware) and STUN(shareware). I enjoyed STUN much more. I'm a huge galactic empire game fan. I'm not saying that SEIV is a bad game. SEIV just didn't impress me as much as Starships Unlimited. [/B][/QUOTE]

I bought an earlier version of SEIV and also had the earlier demo of STUN. I always play solo games. SEIV looks to be a multiplayer intensive game. In the earlier verison of SEIV my computer opponents would declare war on me and the relations bar(?) would always hit red. But then after some time they would eventually feel brotherly toward me yet still remain at war with me. I told Shrapnel games about this bug and they just didn't care. So I removed SEIV from the hard drive and plan to mail it back to them.:mad:

STUN was funny before they merged with Matrix. The new version really doesn't seem to play differently but at least the (1 guy) team put more effort into the solo game. MHO.
RHJ

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Post #: 20
- 4/25/2002 4:29:18 AM   
madmax88

 

Posts: 143
Joined: 1/14/2002
From: Montreal, Canada
Status: offline 		The new version also has new graphics and gameplay changes... oh oh, and MODS too with the new patch. (1.2)

:D

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Post #: 21
Re: Opinions ....opinions.... - 4/27/2002 12:45:04 PM   
Arralen


Posts: 827
Joined: 5/21/2000
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by rhohltjr [B]I bought an earlier version of SEIV ..... In the earlier verison of SEIV my computer opponents would declare war on me and the relations bar(?) would always hit red. But then after some time they would eventually feel brotherly toward me yet still remain at war with me. I told Shrapnel games about this bug and they just didn't care. So I removed SEIV from the hard drive and plan to mail it back to them [/B][/QUOTE]

At first - Shrapnel Games isn't the developer but only the distributor, so there's little they can do about bugs.

Second - that "AI always red"-bug was fixed quite some time ago IIRC !!

So if you have trouble with bugs, look for the latest patch in Shrapnels download section, if that doesn't help go to http://www.malfador.com/ - that's the developer.
But as you have the first version (not "gold"), pay attention that you get the correct patch, or you'll be completly out of luck :)

A.

PS: ..and this wasn't a "serious" .exe bug IIRC, but only a problem with some "alien anger" settings in some of the text files not working as intended .. should be possible to fix it yourself .. check the forum at Shrapnelgames for more info on modding :)

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Post #: 22
Re: Re: Opinions ....opinions.... - 4/30/2002 12:53:54 AM   
rhohltjr


Posts: 536
Joined: 4/27/2000
From: When I play pacific wargames, I expect smarter AI.
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Arralen
[B]

...Second - that "AI always red"-bug was fixed quite some time ago IIRC !!

PS: ..and this wasn't a "serious" .exe bug IIRC, but only a problem with some "alien anger" settings in some of the text files not working as intended .. should be possible to fix it yourself .. check the forum at Shrapnelgames for more info on modding :) [/B][/QUOTE]

Just returned from Shrapnelgames.com and malfador.com and could not find a MOD section.
Perhaps I am not looking at right page?

Hope I state this correctly, my problem with the earlier version was AI technically being at WAR with me at the same time they would be feeling brotherly toward me. They would always refuse peace/trade/research/any-and-all treaties. I read through the History.txt file at Malfador.com from version 1.03 through vs 1.67 of SEIV and I do not see this addressed. Perhaps it is a text file somewhere that needs a tweak as you've stated.

madmax88: What MODs are included and where is the vs1.2 patch. I *did* have the usual MODs StarWars, Empire, Bab5 and some others.

Is there an actual working link anywhere that shows the latest and greatest MODS?
thanks:)

(in reply to Blackadar)
Post #: 23
- 4/30/2002 3:56:11 AM   
madmax88

 

Posts: 143
Joined: 1/14/2002
From: Montreal, Canada
Status: offline 		More than likely, you'll find the mods for SeIV on fan pages. Try the different links from the official site or go through a search engine.
Ver 1.2 i stated was for Sudg though, not SEIV. This can be found in the download section on matrix's site.

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Post #: 24
Re: Re: Re: Opinions ....opinions.... - 4/30/2002 11:36:32 PM   
Arralen


Posts: 827
Joined: 5/21/2000
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by rhohltjr [B]
Just returned from Shrapnelgames.com and malfador.com and could not find a MOD section. [/B][/QUOTE]

For Mods look at
Shrapnel Games Forum - "Game Board" (the topmost !) "New Scenaria/Mod Forum":
http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum&f=50

The latest (and last) patch 1.49 for SEIV (not Gold) is at:
http://www.malfador.com/se4.html

..scroll down to the paragraph with reads "Space Empire IV" .. there's a link to the patch..


And if you have any more questions, please post them at Shrapnelgames SEIV forum at:
http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum&f=23

.. it's been some time since I last messed around with SE4, so better ask some folks there... I'm not that up-to-date any more..

hope this is helpful, yours

A.

(in reply to Blackadar)
Post #: 25
Re: Re: Re: Re: Opinions ....opinions.... - 5/2/2002 8:48:03 PM   
rhohltjr


Posts: 536
Joined: 4/27/2000
From: When I play pacific wargames, I expect smarter AI.
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Arralen
[B]
.. it's been some time since I last messed around with SE4, so better ask some folks there... I'm not that up-to-date any more..

hope this is helpful, yours

A. [/B][/QUOTE]

Arralen, I downloaded the SEIV gold demo and have been playing it to see if they have fixed the
War/feeling 'brotherly' bug I can't stand. Unfortuately I found the bug has not been fixed.
If you would like to see for yourself, send me a private message with your e-mail and I will send you the game files.

I hope the STUN community can come up with the amount of MODS that SEIV has generated. That was
a major factor for me to try SEIV.

Your website is impressive, wish I was able to
speak german to understand more.

Thanks for your help. :)

(in reply to Blackadar)
Post #: 26
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Opinions ....opinions.... - 5/4/2002 2:06:52 AM   
Arralen


Posts: 827
Joined: 5/21/2000
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by rhohltjr [B]Your website is impressive, wish I was able to speak german to understand more.[/B][/QUOTE]

Good joke that .. I'll do everything on it in either German and English .. if I ever get to work on it again .. doesn't look like at the moment, though.

So maybe check back next year or so, I may have finished another paragraph on some page :(

But I was really shure they fixed that issue ... strange .. did you ask at Shrapnelgames" forum about that??

A.

(in reply to Blackadar)
Post #: 27
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