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RE: West front done - 9/19/2008 8:19:11 PM   
RufusTFirefly

 

Posts: 1048
Joined: 8/29/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline 		West front executing now.

(in reply to Mehring)
Post #: 151
RE: West front done - 9/19/2008 8:38:36 PM   
Mehring

 

Posts: 2179
Joined: 1/25/2007
Status: offline 		and if mavnb comes on late like he said he does... we're done

(in reply to RufusTFirefly)
Post #: 152
RE: West front done - 9/19/2008 9:00:26 PM   
RufusTFirefly

 

Posts: 1048
Joined: 8/29/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline 		West front turn done and send to mavnb and Mehring.

(in reply to Mehring)
Post #: 153
RE: West front done - 9/20/2008 2:14:07 AM   
mavnb

 

Posts: 93
Joined: 8/26/2000
From: bellefeuille
Status: offline 		filed I received is on german side so someone did my front.
I will therefore remind that if we start anew "for real"
I am suppose to have command of NW front.

(in reply to Mehring)
Post #: 154
RE: West front done - 9/20/2008 5:17:49 AM   
TheArchduke


Posts: 407
Joined: 2/7/2008
Status: offline 		Ah, and which front do I command?

(in reply to mavnb)
Post #: 155
RE: West front done - 9/20/2008 7:33:49 AM   
Mehring

 

Posts: 2179
Joined: 1/25/2007
Status: offline 		Yes, and no. I don't think anyone did South Front Moves but errrr South front and STAVKA have not finished the turn. All the same, watch the History Screen and an entire army disapear before AG South's eyes.

In the real game, there will be NO REPLAYS. If goofs happen, big or small, we have to live with them. We do not close the game and re-open. No no no no no no. Neither do we re-do a turn if someone fires off without any orders. As well as for delays, that's why it's so important to know and follow the turn procedure.

As for who get what Front, I've suggested to the other side that we lose either TheArchduke or Ccr as the two of you are to experienced at this game to reflect the Russian command of early 1941. We would then get a less experienced player from the other side.

Otherwise, if you both REALLY want to stay- nobody can force you to change sides, we will open with a really severe handicap like no retreat for maybe 4 turns or no strategic movement to the east. Just suggesstions at the moment, and let me know your thoughts on this.

Before taking any commands, and while we're sorting out the next step, ther will be a short examination in turn procedure which I will forward to you all shortly. You cannot fail it, you just keep taking it until you pass.

(in reply to TheArchduke)
Post #: 156
RE: West front done - 9/20/2008 9:18:16 AM   
TheArchduke


Posts: 407
Joined: 2/7/2008
Status: offline 		Hmm, doesn´t the SU have a hard time enough already.

In the worst case I will retreat from participating, would be a shame though.

(in reply to Mehring)
Post #: 157
RE: West front done - 9/20/2008 9:48:27 AM   
RufusTFirefly

 

Posts: 1048
Joined: 8/29/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline 		I think TheArchduke is right. It is quite hard for SU in the beginning. Lost of units get killed and retreating is the only possible way. So, giving SU a handycap might enable the other side just to overrun SU.

And in case it is too heavy for axis, we will see how we do as axis in case we do a replay with sides changed.

Concerning the retreat from participation of The Archduke I want to keep you in mind, that I was the last one to come. So I should leave, if anyone has to. It does not mean that I dont want to take part here, but it wasclear from the beginning that the last to come is the last to get a slot.

(in reply to TheArchduke)
Post #: 158
RE: West front done - 9/20/2008 11:41:53 AM   
mavnb

 

Posts: 93
Joined: 8/26/2000
From: bellefeuille
Status: offline 		We could give a "junior" HQ to Rufus.
Therefore he could be army X of the West
front. It brings another level of communication
for you "europe guys"

(in reply to RufusTFirefly)
Post #: 159
RE: West front done - 9/20/2008 12:09:01 PM   
Mehring

 

Posts: 2179
Joined: 1/25/2007
Status: offline 		Historically, I don't think much survived from the frontier armies. This was for a number of reasons.

1. Germany, at this stage, had high quality operational leadership with little interference from their "great one." Russia had appalling operational leadership and any talents it might have had were compromised by orders from the other "great one," to not retreat, on pain of death.

2. German troops were relatively experienced, their combined arms/inter-sevice co-operation doctrines were well practiced and effective for the period. Russian troops hadn't a clue how to fight this type of war and would spend years learning.

3. The Russian army's dispositions were inappropriate and in spite of numerous warnings which generally earned a bullet to the head in the Lubyanka, surprise was total.

4. Obsessed by quantity at the expense of quality, the massive nominal numerical superiority enjoyed by Russia in many fields turned out to be illusiory as the products of Russian industry were of sub-standard manufacture. This contributed to and was exacerbated by a lack of spare parts. More vehicles were lost to breakdowns than to enemy action. The general level of culture in Russia was so low, there were not sufficient people educated to the necessary levels in maths, for example, to adopt artillery systems comparable to those of western armies.

How does this find expression in the game?

If you haven't played this before, your experience will be coloured by this one, but it is not the whole story. For the first 4 turns, (ie all the turns we've played plus 1) Germany enjoys movement and combat advantages. This is what has made the German advance possible and our losses so heavy. From turn five, Germans cease to be Aryan super-men or even enjoy the advantages they did have historically. They fight with the same qualities as us.

From a solo game I played, the loss of these advantages really turns the game around. If on top of this, Germans lose time and killing opportunities in this game from inexperienced handling of their forces in the first crucial weeks, I fear they will never get much past Smolensk.

The ways I can think of reflecting these historical conditions are-

1. Modify the game, giving the Germans research level advantages.
2. Ensure that Gemany has an advantage in commander experience.
3. Enforce a "no retreat" order on the Russians for a certain period to reflect our leader's great wisdom.

It's not my intention to push players out of our side, far from it. I'm just interested in evening up the sides and reflecting history.

I would also propose that until May 1942, the Germans are not allowed to use their rail capacity east of Estonia, Minsk and Ternapol, or some mechanism be developed to reflect their logistical problems due to rail gauges.




< Message edited by Mehring -- 9/20/2008 12:14:56 PM >

(in reply to RufusTFirefly)
Post #: 160
RE: West front done - 9/20/2008 2:00:56 PM   
TheArchduke


Posts: 407
Joined: 2/7/2008
Status: offline 		Well, I for one think we should play the game out before we make adjustments.

Concerning a better/realistic GPW coupled with a better map, boronx and me are working on that.:D

(in reply to Mehring)
Post #: 161
RE: West front done - 9/20/2008 2:28:56 PM   
Jay Doubleyou

 

Posts: 245
Joined: 8/12/2004
Status: offline 		GPW certainly needs balancing, since German side is too weak and thus easy to stop. I will start a special thread about it where players can post their ideas.

Edit: started this thread:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1917555

< Message edited by Jay Doubleyou -- 9/20/2008 2:50:57 PM >

(in reply to TheArchduke)
Post #: 162
RE: West front done - 9/20/2008 3:39:03 PM   
Ccr

 

Posts: 179
Joined: 4/22/2008
From: UK
Status: offline 		I am happy to sit out the game initially. I have plenty of pbems going at the moment to keep me busy!

re GPW v6a: I find that this is now overbalanced in favour of the Russians; it is very tricky for the Axis to deal fatal blows to the enemy in 1941 & the winter offensive usually sees the Axis player in a hopeless position (NW front seems to be especially well placed to dominate AGN) - perhaps all this does is faithfully reflect the historical realities! 1 on 1 I would always back the Russian player.

(in reply to Mehring)
Post #: 163
RE: West front done - 9/24/2008 1:59:30 AM   
mavnb

 

Posts: 93
Joined: 8/26/2000
From: bellefeuille
Status: offline 		not receive turns, orders, or any news for 2 days now.
Hotmail the problem??

(in reply to Mehring)
Post #: 164
RE: West front done - 9/24/2008 5:59:18 PM   
Mehring

 

Posts: 2179
Joined: 1/25/2007
Status: offline 		We're currently horse trading and agreeing play balances.

(in reply to mavnb)
Post #: 165
RE: West front done - 9/26/2008 2:34:56 AM   
mavnb

 

Posts: 93
Joined: 8/26/2000
From: bellefeuille
Status: offline 		ok. was wondering if I was about to receive the visit of some guys saying my services were no longer required...

(in reply to Mehring)
Post #: 166
RE: West front done - 10/7/2008 12:22:57 AM   
Mehring

 

Posts: 2179
Joined: 1/25/2007
Status: offline 		All commanders. Your leave is cancelled. Report to your headquarters immediately!

(in reply to mavnb)
Post #: 167
RE: Scenario changes and house rules - 10/7/2008 8:52:10 PM   
Mehring

 

Posts: 2179
Joined: 1/25/2007
Status: offline 		Changes to standard GPWv6a-

Germans have level 2 staff and fighters.
Germans have 8 medium tanks.

House rules-

To reflect Stalin's "no retreat" orders, Russia cannot use rail movement eastwards until November 1st. Historically, commanders had some tactical freedom of movement which was often used to retreat, but strategic resources were not available.

To reflect the German's logistical problems in the first year of the war particularly, Germany cannot use any rail transport at all, east of Estonia, Minsk and Ternapol until May 1st 1942. This is intended to represent as far as possible their over reliance upon the inadequate road network, this forced by the slow rate at which they were able to convert the Russian rail network to a West European gauge.


(in reply to Mehring)
Post #: 168
RE: Scenario changes and house rules - 10/8/2008 12:28:52 AM   
mavnb

 

Posts: 93
Joined: 8/26/2000
From: bellefeuille
Status: offline 		Northwest Front ready. Was getting worried that
war was not happening.

mavnb

(in reply to Mehring)
Post #: 169
RE: Scenario changes and house rules - 10/8/2008 12:52:41 AM   
british exil


Posts: 1686
Joined: 5/4/2006
From: Lower Saxony Germany
Status: offline 		South ready.

problem is that I'm on holiday from 12-24.10 Sorry if that creates problems.
I hope that I will not be relieved of my duty.

_____________________________

"It is not enough to expect a man to pay for the best, you must also give him what he pays for." Alfred Dunhill

WitE,UV,AT,ATG,FoF,FPCRS

(in reply to mavnb)
Post #: 170
RE: Scenario changes and house rules - 10/8/2008 6:27:37 PM   
Barthheart


Posts: 3194
Joined: 7/20/2004
From: Nepean, Ontario
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mehring

Changes to standard GPWv6a-

Germans have level 2 staff and fighters.
Germans have 8 medium tanks.

House rules-

To reflect Stalin's "no retreat" orders, Russia cannot use rail movement eastwards until November 1st. Historically, commanders had some tactical freedom of movement which was often used to retreat, but strategic resources were not available.

To reflect the German's logistical problems in the first year of the war particularly, Germany cannot use any rail transport at all, east of Estonia, Minsk and Ternapol until May 1st 1942. This is intended to represent as far as possible their over reliance upon the inadequate road network, this forced by the slow rate at which they were able to convert the Russian rail network to a West European gauge.



Can you explain more about how the "no rail movment' works? Is it just no strat movement by train or can't you transfer SFT's form HQ's to units?Supplies?
How do you make sure this is not done by train? Separate the trains from the HQ's? Or remove them all together and add them in later by event?


_____________________________

Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty & well preserved body,
but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"

(in reply to Mehring)
Post #: 171
RE: Scenario changes and house rules - 10/8/2008 8:29:16 PM   
Mehring

 

Posts: 2179
Joined: 1/25/2007
Status: offline 		Good points. What I wanted to replicate as far as possible is that apart from a few captured trains and rolling stock, there were no trains for the Germans beyond the slow moving rail gauge coversion batallions.

Supply is where this situation was most keenly felt but in AT it is beyond our control, AFAIK. I envisaged only strat movement restrictions but your mention of SF transfers- which I never considered- is very relevant. If it's ok with you guys, then, I'm for including SF transfers in the restrictions. You'll then find your road convoys more useful than ever.

(in reply to Barthheart)
Post #: 172
RE: Scenario changes and house rules - 10/8/2008 8:38:54 PM   
Barthheart


Posts: 3194
Joined: 7/20/2004
From: Nepean, Ontario
Status: offline 		I'm good with restricting teh SFT transfers as well... but how do you do that? Delete all trains? How can you tell if an SFT transfer is using trucks or trains to happen?

I've been trying to come up with at way to simulate the rail gauge changeover problem... but it involves major changes to the scenario... different supplies for Germans or Russians.... different trains.... different railroad terrain and some way to switch from one to the other.....

Anyone eles have ideas????

_____________________________

Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty & well preserved body,
but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"

(in reply to Mehring)
Post #: 173
RE: Scenario changes and house rules - 10/8/2008 8:49:37 PM   
Mehring

 

Posts: 2179
Joined: 1/25/2007
Status: offline 		I think you can assume that anything over around 10 hexes is being moved by trains. I suggest to form staging HQs equipped with trucks, at the railheads. Top or AG HQ could then train SFs to these, and they bump the SFs forward in trucks to their destination. 

I'm all ears for your rail gauge scenario though.

(in reply to Barthheart)
Post #: 174
RE: Scenario changes and house rules - 10/8/2008 11:44:09 PM   
Barthheart


Posts: 3194
Joined: 7/20/2004
From: Nepean, Ontario
Status: offline 		Ok, I think that will be workable...

Oh another thing, can you add an overall HQ for the Germans, named OKW (say 10 Staff and only trains). And have all the AG's HQ's attached to it. This will help simulate the supply problems and make it easier for the German top commander to have a single point for supplies to flow to and from. Might make the strat transfer thing work easier too.

Just thinking this through.... if the Germans have an OKW HQ then it can have the only trains to start. This means the AG HQ's will have to stop advancing at the "railheads" and will only have trucks. As the production and supplies will all go to the OKW HQ there's no worry of the AG Hq's using trains improperly. Then in 1942, the Germans can start transfering trains to the AG HQ's.

More ideas?

_____________________________

Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty & well preserved body,
but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"

(in reply to Mehring)
Post #: 175
RE: Scenario changes and house rules - 10/9/2008 9:43:18 AM   
Mehring

 

Posts: 2179
Joined: 1/25/2007
Status: offline 		can you add an overall HQ for the Germans, named OKW
I see! You're showing up another assumption I made, that as Russia has STAVKA, Germany must also have OKW. No problem, I'll strip trains from the AGs and add them to a new OKW or OKH HQ formation in Berlin.

This means the AG HQ's will have to stop advancing at the "railheads" and will only have trucks.
If they're all run on trucks, couldn't you put the staging HQs at the railheads and advance the AG HQs, if you wanted? Not sure if either version would impact upon HQ combat bonus if Army HQs are up with the fighting anyway.

Then in 1942, the Germans can start transfering trains to the AG HQ's.
Exactly. Just figured how to do this, as I had problems transferring trains between HQs in our practice game. You have to create a formation, fill it with trains, then move it. Only seems to shift 20 hexes a turn, less than trucks.

I checked the map and I think in the south, Ternapol is a bit too harsh a limit and does not agree at all with the number of  "1941 convertable" rail hexes in AGs C and N. Vinnitsa/Zhitomir/Karosten are more realistic railhead limits for AGS.

(in reply to Barthheart)
Post #: 176
RE: Scenario changes and house rules - 10/9/2008 12:17:44 PM   
Barthheart


Posts: 3194
Joined: 7/20/2004
From: Nepean, Ontario
Status: offline 		Mehring,

I got your PM with the changed scenario.

About the map labels, I have a ver 6a with the city and river names turned on. It looks pretty good. I can send it to you, but then you'd have to remake all your changes.

Let me know.

That's odd about the trains... they should be able to be transfered between units the same as any other SFT.... I'll give it a try and see what's going on.

_____________________________

Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty & well preserved body,
but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"

(in reply to Mehring)
Post #: 177
RE: Scenario changes and house rules - 10/9/2008 1:10:31 PM   
Mehring

 

Posts: 2179
Joined: 1/25/2007
Status: offline 		No probs, send it. Practice makes perfect

(in reply to Barthheart)
Post #: 178
RE: Scenario changes and house rules - 10/9/2008 1:18:42 PM   
Barthheart


Posts: 3194
Joined: 7/20/2004
From: Nepean, Ontario
Status: offline 		PM sent with zip. let me know if you got it.

_____________________________

Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty & well preserved body,
but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"

(in reply to Mehring)
Post #: 179
RE: Scenario changes and house rules - 10/13/2008 9:34:00 PM   
Jay Doubleyou

 

Posts: 245
Joined: 8/12/2004
Status: offline 		Game is on!
Did my part of the turn and it's now at Rufus for his part.
Barthheart will do his tomorrow I think, because he is away now. After that's it's over to the Russian side.

Good luck everyone. Looking forward to it.
See you in Moscow before it gets cold.. :P

(in reply to Barthheart)
Post #: 180
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