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Buma Airwar Woes

 
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Buma Airwar Woes - 10/16/2008 8:06:12 PM   
jhowell


Posts: 27
Joined: 10/16/2008
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		August 1942 (PBEM, CHS - Nik type mod) The air war in Buma rages on...



I've taken back Akyab and have started to build it. It's now a level 3 airport and I have used it a couple of times to send Huricanes and P-38 Lightnings to sweep Rangoon - it always ends in disaster I can understand taking a few extra losses but it ends up 16 Huricanes destroyed, 12 P-38's destroyed and 10 damaged with 2 zero's damaged. So first question: Am I doing something wrong? It's not like it was newbies I was send up either... it was (definately was since they pretty much cessed to exist after that day) the 2nd wing of the AVG.

But when I send my bombers in unescorted they do pretty well. Is it like the old paper-rock-sissors. Jap fighter beats allied fighter. Allied bomber beats Jap fighter. Then... actually maybe it isn't so much like that after all. The only thing stopping me sending them more often is the fatigue levels.


Second Question: Since it seems I won't be able to get air superiority for a long time, would it be pratical to send a land force down the rail from Imphal then onto the railway one hex north-east of Mandalay. How would the movement be calculated in terms of trails, roads and railways?


Post #: 1
RE: Buma Airwar Woes - 10/16/2008 9:08:13 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

Posts: 5475
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline 		Well you didnt give the date, so I am assuming its early war since you mentioned the AVG. If thats the case part of your problem is the Zero bonus. Contrary to popular believe, just naming a P-40 unit "AVG" doesnt make it exempt from the Zero bonus. Only 1 allied UNIT in the game (1 slot in the air unit mix) has this. I have never played Nik Mod, but if its like CHS, that 1 unit is the 1st squadron of the AVG. The other AVG units are just regular P-40 units with a little better experience.

Also, you didnt give numbers of Japs flying out of Rangoon. The air war in the Pacific wasnt won in 1 battle or 1 day. You "win" the air war as the allies by a long (VERY long) campaign of attrition. If Rangoon has "uber-CAP", then hit the other bases. Train your pilots on things he isnt defending. If he weakens Rangoon to defend these other bases, then switch to Rangoon. Dont hit the same base 2 days in a row (well, once in a while). Roll dice and let chance pick your targets so he cant anticipate you.

(in reply to jhowell)
Post #: 2
RE: Buma Airwar Woes - 10/16/2008 9:13:03 PM   
anarchyintheuk

 

Posts: 3921
Joined: 5/5/2004
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		It's in 8/42, so no zero bonus. Try flying higher and in larger numbers. Moron proof your squadron leaders. If that doesn't work, forget sweeps and just try them as escorts and compare loss rates.

(in reply to Yamato hugger)
Post #: 3
RE: Buma Airwar Woes - 10/16/2008 9:20:14 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

Posts: 5475
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline 		Ah, missed the date on the top. Sorry. At this stage of the war be happy if you lose 1.5 to his 1.

(in reply to anarchyintheuk)
Post #: 4
RE: Buma Airwar Woes - 10/16/2008 9:21:59 PM   
sprior


Posts: 8596
Joined: 6/18/2002
From: Portsmouth, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KiwVik

August 1942 (PBEM, CHS - Nik type mod) The air war in Buma rages on...

Second Question: Since it seems I won't be able to get air superiority for a long time, would it be pratical to send a land force down the rail from Imphal then onto the railway one hex north-east of Mandalay. How would the movement be calculated in terms of trails, roads and railways?


Don't do it. They'll be tired and hungry when they get there and you'll hand the Japanese an easy victory. As for movement rates look in the manual at 8.3

_____________________________

"Grown ups are what's left when skool is finished."
"History started badly and hav been geting steadily worse."
- Nigel Molesworth.



(in reply to jhowell)
Post #: 5
RE: Buma Airwar Woes - 10/16/2008 11:23:45 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

Posts: 5475
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sprior


quote:

ORIGINAL: KiwVik

August 1942 (PBEM, CHS - Nik type mod) The air war in Buma rages on...

Second Question: Since it seems I won't be able to get air superiority for a long time, would it be pratical to send a land force down the rail from Imphal then onto the railway one hex north-east of Mandalay. How would the movement be calculated in terms of trails, roads and railways?


Don't do it. They'll be tired and hungry when they get there and you'll hand the Japanese an easy victory. As for movement rates look in the manual at 8.3


Actually, this depends on other factors. Chiefly, how likely are the Japs to invade India if you do this? If you have bagged his carriers then a Jap invasion of Indian is unlikely since he wont be able to cover it with carrier air, this might be a very viable strategy to tie down Jap forces that may otherwise be sent to the eastern and southern Pacific.

(in reply to sprior)
Post #: 6
RE: Buma Airwar Woes - 10/17/2008 10:48:53 PM   
Nemo121


Posts: 5821
Joined: 2/6/2004
Status: offline 		Don't listen to the people who tell you to accept unfavourable loss ratios. If you really want to do the sweeps then the following steps are essential:

1. Check your leaders... For fighters you want HIGH Air Skill and HIGH Aggression.

2. Mass your fighters. If you can send 100 then look for a way to send 200, if you can send 200 then look for a way to send 300.

3. Send them in at maximum altitude on a SWEEP mission.

4.Don't attack until you have enough pilot and plane reserves to replace your entire force 2 or 3 times over.

5. When you attack keep at least 1/3rd of your entire force in reserve.

6. Prior to Day 1 decide if you are going to replace units in the line when they are 50% effective or 33% effective.

7. Launch Day 1.... At the end of  the day remove any units which are below 50% effective ( my preference ) and bring your attacking airfields up to full strength by flying in however many planes you need from your reserve ( the 1/3rd we talked about in Point 5 ). Draft replacement pilots and airframes into the squadrons which you pulled back because they were less than 50% effective.

8. Launch Day 2... Replace those units which are below 50% effective with more units from the reserve and rinse and repeat.


Your goal should be to keep your front-line levels the same through a continual revolving of units into and out of reserve (once they have been rebuilt with replacements ). If you have planne your logistics properly the enemy's plane and pilot pools will run out before yours do and, Hey Presto, you've just gained air superiority over this region.

They keys are:
1. Keeping your front-line fighter strength high and employing them in sweeps and with the right leaders in order to maximise effectiveness.
2. Replenishing and rotating the reserve in order to allow Point 1.
3. Timing it right so that you have enough reserves to outlast the enemy.

It not rocket science but it does require discipline and a realisation that at the strategic scale of things war is ALL about logistics.

(in reply to Yamato hugger)
Post #: 7
RE: Buma Airwar Woes - 10/18/2008 9:46:06 PM   
jhowell


Posts: 27
Joined: 10/16/2008
From: Denmark
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger


quote:

ORIGINAL: sprior


quote:

ORIGINAL: KiwVik

August 1942 (PBEM, CHS - Nik type mod) The air war in Buma rages on...

Second Question: Since it seems I won't be able to get air superiority for a long time, would it be pratical to send a land force down the rail from Imphal then onto the railway one hex north-east of Mandalay. How would the movement be calculated in terms of trails, roads and railways?


Don't do it. They'll be tired and hungry when they get there and you'll hand the Japanese an easy victory. As for movement rates look in the manual at 8.3


Actually, this depends on other factors. Chiefly, how likely are the Japs to invade India if you do this? If you have bagged his carriers then a Jap invasion of Indian is unlikely since he wont be able to cover it with carrier air, this might be a very viable strategy to tie down Jap forces that may otherwise be sent to the eastern and southern Pacific.


I have taken out the Akagi and a lot of light carriers (5-6) and he has already tried to take India twice and Ceylon once with big losses. I don't think he is coming back. The defence was made possible by sacrificing Buma and evacuating everything back into India, so I have plenty of LCU to play with. I'm serious about it - in fact I've decided to start preping all my armour units plus a division and the Chindits. The big problem is how to prevent him just sending a huge stack up the railway from Rangoon when he sees me coming so I will have to make sure that I tie this in with an attack on the capital. For that I need air superiority and that is a long way away.

Thanks for the advice. I will make sure I come back and report what happened.


(in reply to Yamato hugger)
Post #: 8
RE: Buma Airwar Woes - 10/18/2008 9:49:18 PM   
jhowell


Posts: 27
Joined: 10/16/2008
From: Denmark
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

Don't listen to the people who tell you to accept unfavourable loss ratios. If you really want to do the sweeps then the following steps are essential:

1. Check your leaders... For fighters you want HIGH Air Skill and HIGH Aggression.

2. Mass your fighters. If you can send 100 then look for a way to send 200, if you can send 200 then look for a way to send 300.

3. Send them in at maximum altitude on a SWEEP mission.

4.Don't attack until you have enough pilot and plane reserves to replace your entire force 2 or 3 times over.

5. When you attack keep at least 1/3rd of your entire force in reserve.

6. Prior to Day 1 decide if you are going to replace units in the line when they are 50% effective or 33% effective.

7. Launch Day 1.... At the end of  the day remove any units which are below 50% effective ( my preference ) and bring your attacking airfields up to full strength by flying in however many planes you need from your reserve ( the 1/3rd we talked about in Point 5 ). Draft replacement pilots and airframes into the squadrons which you pulled back because they were less than 50% effective.

8. Launch Day 2... Replace those units which are below 50% effective with more units from the reserve and rinse and repeat.


Your goal should be to keep your front-line levels the same through a continual revolving of units into and out of reserve (once they have been rebuilt with replacements ). If you have planne your logistics properly the enemy's plane and pilot pools will run out before yours do and, Hey Presto, you've just gained air superiority over this region.

They keys are:
1. Keeping your front-line fighter strength high and employing them in sweeps and with the right leaders in order to maximise effectiveness.
2. Replenishing and rotating the reserve in order to allow Point 1.
3. Timing it right so that you have enough reserves to outlast the enemy.

It not rocket science but it does require discipline and a realisation that at the strategic scale of things war is ALL about logistics.


Thanks Nemo, this is brillant. I've printed it off and hung it on the wall. I think my big mistake has been to send my fighters in piecemail as soon as they arrive rather than building up a stockpile (battle of Britain style) and then wearing him down to the point where I can do some real damage.




(in reply to Nemo121)
Post #: 9
RE: Buma Airwar Woes - 10/18/2008 10:09:19 PM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12523
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
Status: offline 		After playing this game for a few years I have come to the following conclusions.
1. Burma is a quagmire for both sides, but stalemates favor the allies.
2. Don't employ Japanese air power except to achieve tactical results.  Japan loses a strategic wars every time.  Hit and run is the best strategy for Japan in Burma and India
3. As Japan you must conquer Burma; Burma is nothing but a buffer zone, but it is a vital one.  If you ever get any resources from it count yourself lucky.
4. Once Japan has Burma dig in and keep your air power outside of 4E range.  This means the enemy will bomb your ground forces at will.  Japan can plan various traps and ambushes to slow the allied air power and its advance.  Whatever else happens don't get caught up in a fight for control of Burma air space.

For the Allies
1. Keep massing your fighters and bombers and throwing yourself at the enemy they won't last long.
2. Bomb, bomb, bombs away!


_____________________________


Artwork graciously provided by Dixie

(in reply to jhowell)
Post #: 10
RE: Buma Airwar Woes - 10/18/2008 10:12:26 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

Posts: 5475
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KiwVik

Thanks Nemo, this is brillant. I've printed it off and hung it on the wall. I think my big mistake has been to send my fighters in piecemail as soon as they arrive rather than building up a stockpile (battle of Britain style) and then wearing him down to the point where I can do some real damage.



Well, frankly it isnt all that brillant. Yes you SHOULD have a stockpile before begining a war of attrition, that much I grant you. But that strategy only works against "uberCAP" people. It doesnt work in all cases. For example:

In order for you to get 300 fighters over Rangoon (if the Japs have all of Burma) means you have to over load Akyab with 600 fighters. If the Jap has any intelligence at all, he is running recon missions over your front line airfields. If I am the Jap player and I see 600 fighters at Akyab, I am sending a BB force and giving my pilots the day off. Your sweep will encounter nothing but clear skies and the next night you will be short about 400 planes because an over loaded airfield takes times 2 losses. And BBs firing bombardment vs a well reconed base score big.

Not to mention, you have to train your pilots. Sending untrained pilots out, even in mass swarms will net you about the same loss ratio as you would have had sending out smaller raids and training a cadre. So again, a "general" course of strategy for the allies is wholly dependent on what the Jap is doing. Or allows you to do.

If you are confidant the Jap player isnt going to come into India, you can launch a limited offensive from Imphal towards Mandalay. You dont want to do a coastal move from Akyab to Rangoon until you have either A) enough air assets to stop a Jap invasion behind you that will cut you off or B) enough spare troops left behind in Akyab to hold should he try such a maneuver. As soon as you are in this position, then yes, by all means, bring pressure to bear everywhere you can.

Never ever ever go from Ledo to Myitkyina though. The way the game moves troops, if you dont take it, you are trapped because the only way the computer will let you move out id to the west. And if you dont control the hex to the west, you arent moving.

(in reply to jhowell)
Post #: 11
RE: Buma Airwar Woes - 10/19/2008 7:19:22 PM   
Nemo121


Posts: 5821
Joined: 2/6/2004
Status: offline 		Well, to Yamato Hugger's points I'd say this.... Why are you trying to outmass Rangoon from a single, smaller base. No, there are some strategic situations in which good tactics just won't ever prevail. In such a situation I'd just load Akyab with lots of defensive fighters 150 or 200 if its level 3 or 4 and you don't want to overload the base or whatever number you like if you can overload.

Then just work to try and make him think he has to take Akyab ( by running little bomber raids out of it etc ) and let him SWEEP you. In such a circumstance you'll lose planes and pilots but you'll lose a lot less pilots than him and thus you'll win the experience war.

As to his counter of BBs. Well, if you are planning things right you will be looking for such a BB move and ready to cover the sealanes with Allied torpedo bombers. Plans within plans, within plans etc. You have to think like a Mentat in this game.


I think each of the above approaches is shown relatively well in the AAR thread of my game against Damian ( and his AAR of his play against me ).

(in reply to Yamato hugger)
Post #: 12
RE: Buma Airwar Woes - 10/19/2008 7:27:30 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

Posts: 5475
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

Well, to Yamato Hugger's points I'd say this.... Why are you trying to outmass Rangoon from a single, smaller base.



That was my point exactly. Im not saying a person SHOULD try this. I am saying a person SHOULDNT. The OP said he was getting beat up at Rangoon. Someone else said send 300 fighters on a sweep over it. Op said it was brilliant. I said no it wasnt and pointed out why it wasnt.

(in reply to Nemo121)
Post #: 13
RE: Buma Airwar Woes - 10/19/2008 7:34:32 PM   
Nemo121


Posts: 5821
Joined: 2/6/2004
Status: offline 		Well, I wasn't giving him a recipe for an Akyab vs Rangoon battle but just general advice.

In this situation he needs to retake Port Blair, fortify it and begin basing bombers and shipping there before making a landing on the Burmese coast or at Tavoy...

(in reply to Yamato hugger)
Post #: 14
RE: Buma Airwar Woes - 10/20/2008 4:42:37 PM   
engineer

 

Posts: 590
Joined: 9/8/2006
Status: offline 		Isn't Burma a place where the strength of PBEM versus AI really shines?  In a human versus Japanese AI, I turned Mandalay into an eastern Stalingrad that set the stage for a reconquest of mainland Asia.  After flipping the tables, I'm over-running Burma and my recon shows the AI is putting most of its strenth on the Burmese frontier, leading the Bengal Coast lightly held (inviting an amphibious invasion). 

I'd never get away with this stuff facing a human player. 

(in reply to Nemo121)
Post #: 15
RE: Buma Airwar Woes - 10/20/2008 6:27:46 PM   
herwin

 

Posts: 6059
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: engineer

Isn't Burma a place where the strength of PBEM versus AI really shines?  In a human versus Japanese AI, I turned Mandalay into an eastern Stalingrad that set the stage for a reconquest of mainland Asia.  After flipping the tables, I'm over-running Burma and my recon shows the AI is putting most of its strenth on the Burmese frontier, leading the Bengal Coast lightly held (inviting an amphibious invasion). 

I'd never get away with this stuff facing a human player. 


I've had the same experience against a live Allied opponent in RHS.

_____________________________

Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com

(in reply to engineer)
Post #: 16
RE: Buma Airwar Woes - 10/20/2008 8:25:36 PM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline 		"In a human versus Japanese AI, I turned Mandalay into an eastern Stalingrad"

I managed to do nearly the same in a CHS 2.08 PBEM that I'm playing now (my worthy opponent decided to pull out and not chew up his army in a vain attempt to capture the fortress).

It hasn't become the staging point for a reconquest of SE Asia... yet.


_____________________________

fair winds,
Brad

(in reply to herwin)
Post #: 17
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