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Problem With Some Running Plays

 
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Problem With Some Running Plays - 10/17/2008 12:05:37 AM   
DreamTeams


Posts: 520
Joined: 5/19/2006
Status: offline 		Just wondering if anyone else is seeing this...

Guess it's hard coded that sometimes the QB pitches the ball to the RB (safety valve) in order to avoid a sack. However, the problem is that most of the time the RB just stands there and does nothing. He just stands there and waits to be tackled. Then when he get's hit by two or three defenders he sometimes coaughs up the ball. Not sure if this is a bug or a play design/logic issue.

Any ideas on how to fix this?

PS: I use Hack's excellent playbooks.

Moderator note: Edited Topic Title

< Message edited by Marauders -- 10/20/2008 6:17:02 AM >

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RE: QB Avoiding Sack Problem - 10/17/2008 2:15:42 AM   
hack153

 

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From: New Englander in Northern, Northern California
Status: offline 		what plays are you seeing this on?  it may be that the QB and HB have a "wait" in one of their commands points which allows the blocks to set up. (however, i've been going through and editing some that are not necessary) otherwise, on passing plays, that shouldn't be happening.

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RE: QB Avoiding Sack Problem - 10/17/2008 12:00:14 PM   
Mykal


Posts: 1777
Joined: 4/3/2008
Status: offline 		Oh Yer...........

I've seen this many times
the QB often makes no attempt to avoid a sack and just takes it on the chin
I think its just the way the game plays

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RE: QB Avoiding Sack Problem - 10/17/2008 5:19:03 PM   
DreamTeams


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hack153

what plays are you seeing this on?  it may be that the QB and HB have a "wait" in one of their commands points which allows the blocks to set up. (however, i've been going through and editing some that are not necessary) otherwise, on passing plays, that shouldn't be happening.


The play that the game will use is one of the HB pitch plays. But, other times it dosn't show the play used. So, did a test and removed all of those pitch plays from the playbook and the AI still found and ran this type of play sometimes when the QB is about to get sacked. That's why I was wondering if it's somehow hard coded into the game and if others are experiencing the same thing. I remember reading that the more intelligent QB's look to dump the ball (when under pressure) was one of the features added to the latest update. I don't mind that, but I just hate it when the RB stands there, doing nothing, waiting to get tackled. Sort of wrecks the flow of a good drive and is certainly a waisted play.

Going to look a little closer and see if I can determine what is happening.



< Message edited by DreamTeams -- 10/17/2008 5:26:21 PM >

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RE: QB Avoiding Sack Problem - 10/17/2008 5:23:21 PM   
DreamTeams


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mykal

Oh Yer...........

I've seen this many times
the QB often makes no attempt to avoid a sack and just takes it on the chin
I think its just the way the game plays


I used to see what you describe more often, Mykal. But, now I notice that QB's will often pitch the ball forward to the HB and then he just stands there and takes it on the chin. This only happens sometimes, other times the HB runs. It's as though the wait logic gets screwed up sometimes.

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RE: QB Avoiding Sack Problem - 10/17/2008 8:02:33 PM   
Marauders

 

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Status: offline 		The HB may not have any place to go, but I can't tell unless I know which plays one is seeing this on.

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RE: QB Avoiding Sack Problem - 10/17/2008 10:02:39 PM   
hack153

 

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From: New Englander in Northern, Northern California
Status: offline 		very odd.  i have not seen that yet.

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RE: QB Avoiding Sack Problem - 10/17/2008 11:49:56 PM   
garysorrell


Posts: 2176
Joined: 1/29/2005
Status: offline 		Well, maybe not the same thing, but I noticed in the Coach Williams playbook that several run plays were almost always stuffed in the backfield immediately after handoff.

I should be able to play my 2nd game tonight, I will look out for all of the above.


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RE: QB Avoiding Sack Problem - 10/18/2008 2:03:26 AM   
hack153

 

Posts: 525
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From: New Englander in Northern, Northern California
Status: offline 		i looked at the williams playbook.  one of the problems is the Ace 4 Spread formation.  i am going to spread the WR out more, which should allow some xtra yardage.  we will see.  however, if you look at the running percents, they are set to very low.  you should expect to see a lot of passing with that playbook.

i'm going through all my playbooks and making more edits.  i am almost done editing all of the defensive plays, and then will start on the offense ones i have left.  i have a list of things that need some tweaking. plus, i am going to add some better 3rd down plays to each playbook.  i have too many short and short-med pass plays and need a couple 3rd and med/ 3rd and long plays.

any ideas are helpful.  thanks for the info gary!

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RE: QB Avoiding Sack Problem - 10/18/2008 5:04:53 AM   
DreamTeams


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marauders

The HB may not have any place to go, but I can't tell unless I know which plays one is seeing this on.



It happens most with Coach Goode. The ai usually selects this play...

Goode R Pro 3 HB Pitch

I'll keep an eye out for which play is run when I see it in the other books.

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RE: QB Avoiding Sack Problem - 10/18/2008 5:22:17 AM   
hack153

 

Posts: 525
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From: New Englander in Northern, Northern California
Status: offline 		Goode is the next offensive playbook to get a face-lift.  i'll check it out.  i just finished a face-lift on all defensive plays.   

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RE: QB Avoiding Sack Problem - 10/18/2008 6:11:38 AM   
DreamTeams


Posts: 520
Joined: 5/19/2006
Status: offline 		Watched another game and this time it happened on this play...

Goode R Pros HB Cntr

The other team was using Coach Miller and it did not occur with that playbook. Yaaaay!

Thanks for looking into this, Hack and for continuing to improve your playbooks.

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RE: QB Avoiding Sack Problem - 10/18/2008 7:31:08 AM   
Marauders

 

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Joined: 3/17/2005
From: Minnesota
Status: offline 		Unless they are named incorrectly, HB pitch and HB counter plays should be runs.

They should have nothing to do with sack avoidance.

With run plays, if the run path extends beyond the line of scrimmage through an offensive lineman, the back will try to go through the lineman. A run to the hole is usually all that is needed.

Practicing plays against multiple defensive fronts in the PDS is helpful to finding problems of this sort.

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RE: QB Avoiding Sack Problem - 10/18/2008 8:45:59 AM   
hack153

 

Posts: 525
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From: New Englander in Northern, Northern California
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quote:

Unless they are named incorrectly, HB pitch and HB counter plays should be runs.


both are running plays.

quote:

With run plays, if the run path extends beyond the line of scrimmage through an offensive lineman, the back will try to go through the lineman. A run to the hole is usually all that is needed.


does any one do that? if so, . just kidding.

quote:

Practicing plays against multiple defensive fronts in the PDS is helpful to finding problems of this sort.


i agree. make sure the defensive fronts use different rushing schemes too.

< Message edited by hack153 -- 10/18/2008 9:03:57 AM >

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RE: QB Avoiding Sack Problem - 10/18/2008 9:29:25 PM   
DreamTeams


Posts: 520
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Status: offline 		Coach Smith had no occurance. Super!

So far, it seems to be a problem limited to Coach Goode.

Looks like the ai diverts to this play sometimes when it looks like the QB feels under pressure. Not sure if it's the original play selected. I play cpu vs cpu games

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RE: QB Avoiding Sack Problem - 10/18/2008 9:55:10 PM   
hack153

 

Posts: 525
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From: New Englander in Northern, Northern California
Status: offline 		good to know.  i think i am going to ditch some of the PRO formations for an I, Strong I, or Weak I.

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RE: QB Avoiding Sack Problem - 10/18/2008 11:38:34 PM   
garysorrell


Posts: 2176
Joined: 1/29/2005
Status: offline 		Hey Hack, i'm posting full game logs this season, if that would be of any help.

Obviously only the games involving Orlando are played out.

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RE: QB Avoiding Sack Problem - 10/19/2008 2:31:47 AM   
hack153

 

Posts: 525
Joined: 11/11/2006
From: New Englander in Northern, Northern California
Status: offline 		thanks.  that will be helpful.

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RE: QB Avoiding Sack Problem - 10/19/2008 4:49:53 AM   
dreamtheatervt


Posts: 483
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From: Virginia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hack153

good to know.  i think i am going to ditch some of the PRO formations for an I, Strong I, or Weak I.


By "pro" do you mean split back formations? (As an aside, you got to love football language...I can draw up 6 different published formations for a "pro" formation.) If so, good call; split backs with QB under center have been phased out by most coaches (in real life) due to the obvious deficencies it has in the running game, combined with marginal improvements it gives the passing game over variants of the I formation.

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RE: QB Avoiding Sack Problem - 10/19/2008 12:02:47 PM   
cbelva


Posts: 1843
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Status: offline 		I have seen this too. What I see happening on these plays is that it is a run play where the QB drops back and then pitiches it to the RB like it is a shuttle pass. I have opened the play up in the editor and it looked designed that way. The QB drops back like to pass and then is given the command to pitch to HB. The HB just stands there because he has been given a "run to next point" command without a next point to go to. I change the command to run to end zone and it appears to correct the problem. I have found several like from different coaches. Most of these are "HB dive" plays.

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RE: QB Avoiding Sack Problem - 10/19/2008 1:30:18 PM   
hack153

 

Posts: 525
Joined: 11/11/2006
From: New Englander in Northern, Northern California
Status: offline 		yes, "pro" for me is a splitback formation.

i try to keep my "football language" in my playbooks as simple and as common as possible. although, simple and common really depends on the audience.  

i am a big fan of I formations. they give teams good balance between running and passing. i am probably going to not make any more pro/splitback formations because it is really hard to design running plays that are effective (at least in the video game realm).

< Message edited by hack153 -- 10/19/2008 2:00:34 PM >

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RE: QB Avoiding Sack Problem - 10/19/2008 3:09:28 PM   
DreamTeams


Posts: 520
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cbelva

I have seen this too. What I see happening on these plays is that it is a run play where the QB drops back and then pitiches it to the RB like it is a shuttle pass. I have opened the play up in the editor and it looked designed that way. The QB drops back like to pass and then is given the command to pitch to HB. The HB just stands there because he has been given a "run to next point" command without a next point to go to. I change the command to run to end zone and it appears to correct the problem. I have found several like from different coaches. Most of these are "HB dive" plays.


Ah, ok. I'll give this a try. Thanks.

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RE: QB Avoiding Sack Problem - 10/19/2008 4:01:46 PM   
DreamTeams


Posts: 520
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DreamTeams


quote:

ORIGINAL: cbelva

I have seen this too. What I see happening on these plays is that it is a run play where the QB drops back and then pitiches it to the RB like it is a shuttle pass. I have opened the play up in the editor and it looked designed that way. The QB drops back like to pass and then is given the command to pitch to HB. The HB just stands there because he has been given a "run to next point" command without a next point to go to. I change the command to run to end zone and it appears to correct the problem. I have found several like from different coaches. Most of these are "HB dive" plays.


Ah, ok. I'll give this a try. Thanks.


Fixed. Problem solved.


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RE: QB Avoiding Sack Problem - 10/19/2008 10:52:09 PM   
cbelva


Posts: 1843
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Status: offline 		By the way, there are several plays like this. In all of them the HB or RB is pitch the ball like a shuttle pass and then stand then. When you look at the play in the editor, the QB has a handoff/pitch to command to that runner. However, the runnner has a move to next point command and just stands there after receiving the ball. When I change the command to run to endzone, the problem is fixed. I have found at least 4 plays like this. Maybe Hack can fix this in the next release. Thanks

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RE: QB Avoiding Sack Problem - 10/19/2008 11:49:18 PM   
hack153

 

Posts: 525
Joined: 11/11/2006
From: New Englander in Northern, Northern California
Status: offline 		thanks for the info. if any one finds a problem, let me know what play it is and i will fix it. with the amount of plays and playbooks i made, there is going to be a couple mistakes.

looking at Coach Goode, i might just trash several more formations. the pro/splitback is a real pain to make good running plays with. any thoughts on this?

< Message edited by hack153 -- 10/19/2008 11:55:33 PM >

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RE: QB Avoiding Sack Problem - 10/20/2008 1:58:12 AM   
cbelva


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Status: offline 		Hack, I just want to say thanks for your work. It has made mine easier. I am using your plays and appreciate your work.

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RE: QB Avoiding Sack Problem - 10/20/2008 3:03:49 AM   
hack153

 

Posts: 525
Joined: 11/11/2006
From: New Englander in Northern, Northern California
Status: offline 		glad to hear that they are helpful. 

i am really making some changes.  besides getting rid of some of Goode's plays, i'm trashing most goalline defensive plays and replacing them with twice as many.  i've also added several other formations and plays to face 3rd and short (5-2, 4-4, etc.) and to face run heavy offenses.  

i have a fairly long list of changes that i want to make, and i keep adding to it.  i don't think i'll make any new playbooks until i am really satisfied with the ones i have already created.  i am a bit of a perfectionist which is good and bad. i also have to keep in mind that this is a video game, not real life, so there will be some things that are not as realistic as i would like.


 

< Message edited by hack153 -- 10/20/2008 3:13:21 AM >

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RE: QB Avoiding Sack Problem - 10/20/2008 5:38:34 AM   
DreamTeams


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hack153

thanks for the info. if any one finds a problem, let me know what play it is and i will fix it. with the amount of plays and playbooks i made, there is going to be a couple mistakes.

looking at Coach Goode, i might just trash several more formations. the pro/splitback is a real pain to make good running plays with. any thoughts on this?


Actually, I like the pro formations, Hack. Reminds me of pro football from when I first became interested in the mid 70's. But, I'm down with whatever you put together. Thanks fror the great work.


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RE: Problem with Some Running Plays - 10/20/2008 6:15:17 AM   
Marauders

 

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Status: offline 		This looks like A PDS issue with specific running plays, so I am moving it over to the PDS area.

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RE: Problem with Some Running Plays - 10/20/2008 11:44:30 AM   
hack153

 

Posts: 525
Joined: 11/11/2006
From: New Englander in Northern, Northern California
Status: offline 		i wondered what happened to this thread...

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