HMSWarspite
Posts: 1401
Joined: 4/13/2002
From: Bristol, UK
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by juliet7bravo
You can't have it both ways. It's got nothing to do with game scale. Either it's an island, ie. an amphibious assault, the 2 sides are contiguous/occupying the same hex, or it's 2 closely related bases joined with a road and they've got a supply dump which can be interdicted. If the island is big enough to have multiple BLZ's/anchorages, then each should be at least a 1/1 base, which can be defended by at least coastal defense guns.[/QUOTE]
I completely disagree. You are mixing two issues here. I agree that you should be able to affect the supply state of 'over the beach' supplied units, by air attack etc. I hope this is factored in to the effectiveness loss (or whatever), or that the game does allow supplies to be attritioned. However, this is a completely different issue to the fact that a significant island, (or 30 mile length of coast) could have numerous possible landing sites. You have to accept, with a game of this size, that two significant forces can be present in the same hex, without being toe to toe. The defensive capabilty of a base is to some extent abstracted, in that I assume that coastal guns can defend against any landing (i.e. they are assumed dispersed to cover 'all' possible landing sites). The fact that the attacker can then land successfully, and build up unmolested (OK, I missed the sporadic artillery exchanges), means that they have a centre of operations some miles from the enemy. I hope the game recognises the difference between an atoll, and a sensible island, because none of what I wrote holds for a bit of land smaller than say 5 miles across.
[QUOTE]If they're occupying the same hex, and it's an amphibious assault, then the assaulter should be under some handicap for over the beach supply levels...ESPECIALLY when he doesn't have any assault boats, barges, or landing ships to get the stuff ashore***.[/QUOTE]
We are in agreement here.
[QUOTE] You're still left with the IJN mounting a major amphib attack in '42 on the USN's major forward fleet base, and having 15X supply ashore to the tune of 1.5 tons of supply for each swinging dick, and this supply being distributed ala a supply dump...without a supply dump[/QUOTE]
I do not necessarily see a problem here. If I understand correctly, 15x supply means that the force has enough supply for 15 days operations 'at current posture' i.e. basically doing nothing other than lob a few shells night and morning. If I am wrong, and it means 15 days at full combat rate, I agree with you, way too much stuff landed too quickly. In my understanding. Iain has no where near enough supplies for serious combat ops. He can just about rush in and accept the surrender. Maybe a beta tester could help here?
[QUOTE]It's alot easier to believe the AI, for whatever reason is just sitting there, than it is to swallow "stealth" landing zones located in the Bermuda Triangle. I noticed in the AAR's they're having "daily artillery exchanges", so obviously the US is able to interfer, and is chosing not to other than lobbing some arty rounds over which (since they don't have a supply dump to disrupt) probably doesn't do much.[/QUOTE]
I do not understand the response of the AI either. However, is it not possible that the AI has less supply than we realise? It is a very common observation that it is easy to give full credit to your own problems, and underestimate those of the enemy? I hope the AI was caught with its trousers (pants) down, and 'calculated' that it could not risk combat with the invaders, because this would not have a sensible chance of success, and would compromise the defence. Who says it isn't sitting there, thinking that the IJN will not manage to get enough supplies in, and the its attack can wait until nearer the auto victory deadline, to reduce IJN supply levels, and reduce time for a counter?
[QUOTE]"Some of the people are only there to handle supplies!"...Okay, the IJN landed a coolie labor battalion to handle the manual labor. You're still left with 1.5 tons of supply per man, 15X supply levels via over the beach resupply, Japan occupying Bermuda Triangle BLZ, and 40+ thousand USMC Jarheads and support troops sitting idly by whilst the IJN establishes themselves on their front porch. Ian's not attacking (yet) because why should he? He's getting stronger, the AI is getting weaker.[/QUOTE]
See above - maybe the AI thinks it doesn't need to attack yet...
[Quote]"Think Guadacanal"...okay, it's got several bases which can be invaded. Not a one of which is a "Stealth base" which can't be interdicted.
I'm not being snide, I'm trying to point out a few possible serious problems here;
(1) Ability to reach 15X supply levels via over the beach supply...effectively, then it would appear that there's no such thing as an amphibous assault except for (possibly) slower unloading rates. If you can get them ashore it's all over...no need to use overwhelming numbers as was historical (Tarawa again; 35,000 vs. 4,800), sieze control, and crush them with overwhelming numbers/firepower before the supply issue became a major factor.
(2) AI not reacting to a DEADLY threat...it had superior numbers, superior supply, superior fort. level, and chose to sit on its hands instead of attempting to push them back into the ocean BEFORE they unloaded 60K tons of supply (over a period of weeks) and reached a 15X supply level. Now they're reportedly in a serious supply state, while Ian's guys are fat and happy.
***there's a thought...TF's which include dedicated landing ships could get a over the beach resupply bonus, both in speed of unloading and resupply levels.
I'm also overstating the boat issue to some degree, as they could have barges on deck and put them in the water using cranes, US swung LCI's from modified davits ect...this is how you could have "small scale" amphibious assaults against lightly held objectives...but not major 40K plus attacks on Espririto Santo/Truk/Rabaul for example.
Also, if a LCU is co-located in the same hex with an enemy TF, wouldn't it make some sense that the unit's organic arty should have some capability/chance of interdicting the ships each turn? As an example, US M1918 155 and M2 105's had a range of 7 miles, M1 155 had a range of 15. No clue how you'd factor that in. [/B][/QUOTE]
You keep making the 'stealth' base comparison. I have commented on the interdiction point, but if you recall the IJN reinforcement of G'canal, the US interdicted the supplies/reinforcements AT SEA. Once ashore they disappeared into the jungle, until they chose to attack/starved to death.
If one of my commanders got his ships shelled from the shore more than once (disregarding direct assault against the battery in question) I would have him sacked. 30 mile hex remember. I think land based art should only be allowed to interdict ships that are actively assaulting (first turn only), or unloading on a small island (atoll etc, as discussed above). The rest of the time, I think we can assume that they are positioned where the guns cannot see or reach them.
Whilst typing this I think I see a way to suggest improvements though. I am assuming that the 1/1 base idea is impractical to code, I also think its unnecessary. What each landing needs is a 'progress' parameter. This would represent the size of the beach head. I haven't worked out the details, but it is something like a number from 0 to 10. 0 would be 'not yet landed' - just offshore etc. 1, on the beach (literally) etc. 10 would be sufficiently far inland that no enemy could see, or shell the beach. A landing where the enemy chose not to contest, but stood off, would expand to 10 in a couple of days. A contested landing would depend on the success of the attacker. Small islands would be limited to the maximum level that can be reached (as low as 1 or 2 for an atoll). Things like over the beach unloading could then be a function of the beachhead size - 10 is maximum rate for manhanding over a beach (i.e. quite small relative to a size 4 port), and 1 could be 'almost nothing, and any ship trying can be hit by land based art', with ramp in between. Obviously, the base capture rules would override all of this, although, the ejected force could then have it's own 'prodress' parameter, to see if it could be resupplied without land based interdiction etc.
How about it Matrix (or can someone tell us you've got it covered anyway). I mean for WitP - we're way too far down stream fot UV I assume?
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