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Traditional Wargames Revived - 10/20/2008 7:37:32 PM

Anendrue

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With the imminent success of MWiF just around the corner, does anyone else think a revival of traditional hex based wargames is possible?
ie... Europa, SPI, VG, AH
If so, is it even possible to get the rights to do such games or have they been bought and sold into oblivion like 3rd Reich?
Will MWiF be a catalyst and catapult for the future of grognards?

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Post #: 1

RE: Traditional Wargames Revived - 10/20/2008 9:15:38 PM

wfzimmerman

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Check out hexwar.com. They have 30+ old SPI games in an easy to use format with a nifty little game player application. I played there daily until I decided to focus my gaming energies on supporting MWIF's journey to fruition.

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Post #: 2

RE: Traditional Wargames Revived - 10/20/2008 10:10:42 PM

Plainian

Posts: 212
Joined: 9/22/2006
From: Dundee in Scotland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: abj9562

With the imminent success of MWiF just around the corner, does anyone else think a revival of traditional hex based wargames is possible?
ie... Europa, SPI, VG, AH

quote:

ORIGINAL: abj9562
If so, is it even possible to get the rights to do such games or have they been bought and sold into oblivion like 3rd Reich?

quote:

ORIGINAL: abj9562
Will MWiF be a catalyst and catapult for the future of grognards?

Frst part I'd say...No. Traditional hex (or area based) wargames is still a niche market and I'd guess the average age of most players is 50+. I'm using my age as a benchmark here folks. Sure there are plenty new young people discovering hex based wargames thanks to companies like Decision Games and GMT but I suspect the hardcore base is still the people that helped and supported these type of games from the early 70's. Hence why the 'average age' is rising all be it slowly.

Second part I'd say No as well. Consimword is really the best place for discussions of this type.

Last part is No as well. No one buying the pc game is going to be encouraged to try board wargames. Nor will it encourage other people to convert other existing board wargames? hexwar.com as wfzimmerman has highlighted is a revelation for 'oldies' like me but I don't think it encourages younger people. CWiE2 will be the same. I think MWiF will do well with traditionalists but I fear will suffer like Empire in Arms in that people that have never tried the boardgame will find it difficult to get into the game and abandon it early.

(in reply to wfzimmerman)

Post #: 3

RE: Traditional Wargames Revived - 10/20/2008 10:58:10 PM

Anendrue

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Joined: 7/8/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Plain Ian
Frst part I'd say...No. Traditional hex (or area based) wargames is still a niche market and I'd guess the average age of most players is 50+. I'm using my age as a benchmark here folks. Sure there are plenty new young people discovering hex based wargames thanks to companies like Decision Games and GMT but I suspect the hardcore base is still the people that helped and supported these type of games from the early 70's. Hence why the 'average age' is rising all be it slowly.

Second part I'd say No as well. Consimword is really the best place for discussions of this type.

Last part is No as well. No one buying the pc game is going to be encouraged to try board wargames. Nor will it encourage other people to convert other existing board wargames? hexwar.com as wfzimmerman has highlighted is a revelation for 'oldies' like me but I don't think it encourages younger people. CWiE2 will be the same. I think MWiF will do well with traditionalists but I fear will suffer like Empire in Arms in that people that have never tried the boardgame will find it difficult to get into the game and abandon it early.

Well my age probably comes in as one of the last (I'm 46) to strongly get involved. With the medium of computers it may come to pass that the games will resurge but cardboard based games I think are history. I just hope that the success of MWiF can spread enthusiasm once again.

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Post #: 4

RE: Traditional Wargames Revived - 10/21/2008 3:34:19 AM

Mike Dubost

Posts: 273
Joined: 8/24/2008
From: Sacramento, CA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: abj9562

quote:

ORIGINAL: Plain Ian
Frst part I'd say...No. Traditional hex (or area based) wargames is still a niche market and I'd guess the average age of most players is 50+. I'm using my age as a benchmark here folks. Sure there are plenty new young people discovering hex based wargames thanks to companies like Decision Games and GMT but I suspect the hardcore base is still the people that helped and supported these type of games from the early 70's. Hence why the 'average age' is rising all be it slowly.

Second part I'd say No as well. Consimword is really the best place for discussions of this type.

Last part is No as well. No one buying the pc game is going to be encouraged to try board wargames. Nor will it encourage other people to convert other existing board wargames? hexwar.com as wfzimmerman has highlighted is a revelation for 'oldies' like me but I don't think it encourages younger people. CWiE2 will be the same. I think MWiF will do well with traditionalists but I fear will suffer like Empire in Arms in that people that have never tried the boardgame will find it difficult to get into the game and abandon it early.

Well my age probably comes in as one of the last (I'm 46) to strongly get involved. With the medium of computers it may come to pass that the games will resurge but cardboard based games I think are history. I just hope that the success of MWiF can spread enthusiasm once again.

I know that you are not the last. I am not sure about me, though.

I am 39, and my friends and I played Axis and Allies all the time in college 20 years ago. I myself got started in junior high on Afrika Korps (I think I remember the name of the game correctly), and moved on to many other hex-based games.

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Post #: 5

RE: Traditional Wargames Revived - 10/21/2008 3:57:34 AM

brian brian

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Hex based games are fine, that's just a mapping system that may be around for a while I think. But the I-go, You-go turn sequence is something that can be greatly improved upon via using computers. I haven't looked around the state of computer wargaming much (too much time thinking about/playing WiF I guess), but I suspect that is out there. I used to play a lot of Squad Leader up through about Crescendo of Doom (maybe I should rephrase that ... I used to play a heck of a lot of Cross of Iron and all other iterations, not so much), but eventually I got tired of the compromises in simulating what a company/battalion commander really must / can do that are perhaps not that possible to simulate with cardboard. Even at the level of WiF, where over time I began to feel the player was much closer to a realistic simulation of what it was like for the decision makers than in tactical games, imagine what the game could be like with you issuing orders while the other leaders do the same and then the computer resolves what happens as a result....

The Mel Gibson movie "We Were Soldiers Once, and Young" I thought was a brilliant depiction of operational tactical combat and I think when I get around to watching the DVD of it, not long afterwards I'll start shopping for a good WWII tactical game that features hidden enemy forces, sometimes limited command and control, and simultaneous activity. Whether that game has a hex-based map and 'pieces' representing groups of men, or a 3-D graphic map or even video styled like real-time shooter arcade games I will never be interested in, I won't care.

(in reply to Mike Dubost)

Post #: 6

RE: Traditional Wargames Revived - 10/21/2008 4:48:53 AM

Neilster

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From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

Hex based games are fine, that's just a mapping system that may be around for a while I think. But the I-go, You-go turn sequence is something that can be greatly improved upon via using computers. I haven't looked around the state of computer wargaming much (too much time thinking about/playing WiF I guess), but I suspect that is out there. I used to play a lot of Squad Leader up through about Crescendo of Doom (maybe I should rephrase that ... I used to play a heck of a lot of Cross of Iron and all other iterations, not so much), but eventually I got tired of the compromises in simulating what a company/battalion commander really must / can do that are perhaps not that possible to simulate with cardboard. Even at the level of WiF, where over time I began to feel the player was much closer to a realistic simulation of what it was like for the decision makers than in tactical games, imagine what the game could be like with you issuing orders while the other leaders do the same and then the computer resolves what happens as a result....

The Mel Gibson movie "We Were Soldiers Once, and Young" I thought was a brilliant depiction of operational tactical combat and I think when I get around to watching the DVD of it, not long afterwards I'll start shopping for a good WWII tactical game that features hidden enemy forces, sometimes limited command and control, and simultaneous activity. Whether that game has a hex-based map and 'pieces' representing groups of men, or a 3-D graphic map or even video styled like real-time shooter arcade games I will never be interested in, I won't care.

Check out the Panther Games stuff (Highway to the Reich, Conquest of the Aegean and also Battles From The Bulge is near release). Best AI in wargames and WEGO at the grand tactical/operational scale.

Personally, I don't mind turn-based, especially at the larger scales. Many times when reading military history I noticed that the operations by either side tend to be in alternate pulses.

Cheers, Neilster

(in reply to brian brian)

Post #: 7

RE: Traditional Wargames Revived - 10/21/2008 4:57:08 AM

paulderynck

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I think the computer/internet age is responsible for a big revival in wargames, of which the hex-based ones are a subset. What I like most about the MWiF project is the potential to have the computer handle a lot of the intricacies of playing that can bog the game down or cause players to make an honest mistake - like counting oil costs or garrison values or moving a unit across a weather line and forgeting it's rain at the destination. The more complex a game is, the more it can benefit from being computerized.

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Post #: 8

RE: Traditional Wargames Revived - 10/21/2008 6:33:13 AM

HansHafen

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I dare say that there are as many if not more board wargames being produced today as there was in its hayday. Just my impression, not based on statistics.

I'm 41 and I consider myself a board wargamer veteran. Started off at about age 12 or so with my purchase of Avalon Hill's 1776. It was a little out of my reach at the time!

I remember soloing AH Waterloo all the time. Great fun. In High School a buddy and I wore out Victory Games' Civil War.

We have a Corpus Christi Military Gaming Society (CCMGS) here and I do believe I am the youngest member out of about 10 of us. One of our members parachuted into Normandy on D-Day!

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Post #: 9

RE: Traditional Wargames Revived - 10/21/2008 12:52:24 PM

Anendrue

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Most of these sites I am familiar with. Heck when Aide de Camp first came out I was an instant convert to PC gaming. While computer versions of games have seen conversion software and the original disasterous 3rd Reich release from Avalon Hill. Many styles have come and gone. All with pros and cons. I love WiF and a computer is the best way to handle taking over a rooom or garage for eternity. Unfortunately AI is still a thing to be desired. For net play and space savings PC games have an instant attraction. In my opinion the biggest problem to a resurgance is convincing many instant gratification console gamer types that developing a long term plan and seeing it to fruition is awesome to behold and expierence.

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Post #: 10

RE: Traditional Wargames Revived - 10/21/2008 2:07:02 PM

Neilster

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From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
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Predictions of the death of wargaming have proved premature so far. If the average age of wargamers is increasing, then eventually it will be retirement age and there will be a large pool of potential players with a lot of time on their hands.

We just have to make sure the industry is in excellent shape with a new generation enthused before the original one shuffles off this mortal coil. I'm pretty confident but in the longer term, we have to be realistic that the events mostly simulated are receding further and further into history and attention spans have decreased.

I'm 37 and when I was a kid, almost everyone could name WW2 fighters and tanks and had at least a rough idea of the course of the war. That is very rare now. Also, our hobbies were often time consuming stuff that required dedication like making model aeroplanes or building a fort in the bush. If it doesn't almost instantly happen, you'll struggle to keep a kid's attention in something now.

Most of my friends are much younger than me and I almost lead a double life. My interest in military history and wargaming would be too foreign to them and is rat poison with women so I basically keep them to myself. It's the online world where I can meet like-minded losers...ahh...I mean people

The packaging has to be right to interest kids in wargaming. I got my nephews into Combat Mission because they could see the cerebral challenge but it also had cool 3D vehicles trundling around and explosions etc. Some of the kids that are used to 3D shooters will give a next generation 3D wargame a go.

I like board wargames and I hope they do well, although I think computer wargaming will increasingly predominate for the practicality and capability reasons outlined above. We just need the right products and MWiF and its successors will certainly help.

Cheers, Neilster

< Message edited by Neilster -- 10/21/2008 2:09:22 PM >

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Post #: 11

RE: Traditional Wargames Revived - 10/21/2008 10:41:45 PM

GJK

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I think that board gaming/wargaming is having a resurgence. Check out how many people are showing up at the monthly Columbus Ohio game day. Central, South and North Texas has 3 very active ASL gaming groups that meet monthly. Online applications such as VASSAL, Cyberboard, wargameroom & ZunTzu allow boardgamers to meet up online and play any time.

Now, is boardgaming ever going to draw the same numbers as computer gaming? No, not even close. But (IMHO) the call (that seems to go out every few years) that "boardgaming is dead" is far from true.

(in reply to Neilster)

Post #: 12

RE: Traditional Wargames Revived - 10/22/2008 10:12:48 PM

warhead2

Posts: 92
Joined: 7/31/2003
From: alabama
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansHafen

I dare say that there are as many if not more board wargames being produced today as there was in its hayday. Just my impression, not based on statistics.

I'm 41 and I consider myself a board wargamer veteran. Started off at about age 12 or so�with my purchase of Avalon Hill's 1776. It was a little out of my reach at the time!

I remember soloing AH Waterloo all the time. Great fun. In High School a buddy and I wore out Victory Games' Civil War.

We have a Corpus Christi Military Gaming Society (CCMGS) here and I do believe I am the youngest member out of about 10 of us. One of our members parachuted into Normandy on D-Day!

hell I got Third Reich for my 12th birthday. I had been playing tactics II since age 11. I remember at age 10 seeing an ad from SPI in Penthouse for Panzerarmee Afrika.

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Post #: 13

RE: Traditional Wargames Revived - 10/23/2008 1:31:54 PM

saintsup

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From: La Celle Saint-Clouud
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quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

Hex based games are fine, that's just a mapping system that may be around for a while I think.

Hex is the 'regular pavement' (sorry for the english) with the max number of sides. So there is absolutly nothing wrong with Hex (and nothing better).

Games with areas (regions, province, ...) who tries to simulate operational modern warfare tend to have more and more areas and the areas are more and more disconnected from geographical/administrative realities (see HOI 3). so why not using hexes ??

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Post #: 14

RE: Traditional Wargames Revived - 10/23/2008 1:33:12 PM

saintsup

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster

I almost lead a double life. My interest in military history and wargaming would be too foreign to them and is rat poison with women so I basically keep them to myself.

So true

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Post #: 15

RE: Traditional Wargames Revived - 10/23/2008 8:34:43 PM

terje439

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Reading this post I get the idea that we are a dying breed of gamers

However;
I'm 30, and go to a gaming convention in Oslo every year, and every year I spot a healthy batch of new kids that become attracted to these games. I believe that the main problem is that they are kinda "forgotten". Most young kids that show up at that convention (usually bringing some parents for backup/support) are there to play RPGs (mainly Vampire and AD&D), however they tend to get interested when they see the maps of WiF spread out over several tables, and the high competition between A&A players and usually stick by those tables. That was how I got started with wargames some 20odd years ago, standing by an A&A table, learning the basics by looking, and when one player had to leave I was invited to take his place...
Come to think of it, I would have had lots more cash now if those bastards did not include me

So wargames are not dead, nor do I believe they will ever be, however they do not get the press that games like WoW/AoC etc gets, and are thus harder for people to be aware of.

What might be an issue thou is that alot (most) new gamers are graphicwhores, and do not manage to see a square cardboard piece with numbers printed on them as military units.

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Post #: 16

RE: Traditional Wargames Revived - 10/23/2008 10:13:08 PM

TheGreatRadish

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I'm 24 and although I and the two friends who I play wargames with usually play computer-based wargames, we have been playing WiF lately (first edition, I found it in my Grandad's attic and he said I could take it as he never got into it - best attic find ever, lol!) and also a little bit of 'Stalingrad Pocket' and ASL.

We're very much the exception though - I find that getting anbody my age interested in wargames of any kind, board or computer, is extremely difficult so I'd like to see a revival in interest in wargames just generally.

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Post #: 17

RE: Traditional Wargames Revived - 10/24/2008 1:35:42 AM

SLAAKMAN

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quote:

With the imminent success of MWiF just around the corner, does anyone else think a revival of traditional hex based wargames is possible? ie... Europa, SPI, VG, AH

Not only possible but even probable!!

The new WiF ala Slaak Variant Mode will be an addendum tournament scenario for my new version titled, "WiF Global Campaign 1931-1953". Victory Conditions; Fight to the death!! (Any other result by 1953 results in a draw which then transpires to my WiF Cold War 1953-DoomsDay scenario.)

quote:

If so, is it even possible to get the rights to do such games or have they been bought and sold into oblivion like 3rd Reich?

I am re-engineering WiF the boardgame as we speak. Im not applying for any copyright since I dont intend to market it. Its for use only in my secret WiF Cult Compound and its adjoining Bunker Complex. Only diehard WiF-Boardgame Fanatics need bother apply. Hot chicks & Newblettes welcome.

quote:

Will MWiF be a catalyst and catapult for the future of grognards?

As a recruiting tool & limited tounament events only.

< Message edited by SLAAKMAN -- 10/24/2008 1:36:09 AM >

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Post #: 18

RE: Traditional Wargames Revived - 10/24/2008 5:46:53 AM

bredsjomagnus

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I almost started to think that I was the youngest wargamer on earth

; im 32.

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Post #: 19

RE: Traditional Wargames Revived - 10/24/2008 5:04:11 PM

composer99

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From: Ottawa, Canada
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I've been playing WiF since my early 20s (I'm in my late 20s now). I know of one WiF regular who has all his sons playing the game - they were all at this years's WiFCon.

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Post #: 20

RE: Traditional Wargames Revived - 10/24/2008 5:07:55 PM

terje439

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bredsjomagnus

I almost started to think that�I was the youngest wargamer on earth ; im 32.

Hah old man

And tbh I'm the second oldest in my gaming group (oldest is 31, youngest 19)

(in reply to bredsjomagnus)

Post #: 21

RE: Traditional Wargames Revived - 10/24/2008 6:49:31 PM

micheljq

Posts: 791
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From: Quebec
Status: offline

OK let's write our gamer's resume, hehe.

I'm 42, first wargames must be chess, Risk, Admiral when I was ten. Played Axis & Allies in 1985 then played Star Fleet Battles, and so on and on.. not played much of Avalon Hill's hexgames though.

Right now I play 2 WiF campaigns, I want to mention I played Empires in Arms from 1990 to 2005. Also played a lot of the boardgame game on railway's companies "Age of Steam".

PC games : World of Warcraft, Company of Heroes, Civilization 4 mostly now.

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Post #: 22

RE: Traditional Wargames Revived - 10/25/2008 2:17:35 AM

terje439

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30.
Started my gaming career with RPGs (D&D, RuneQuest if you disregard chess at age 5), but was sold when I went to my first gaming convention at age 12 and just to fill time played a game called Britannia. After that I continued looking for new wargames. The next one to be given a go was "Wooden ships and iron men", Risk, Axis and Allies and Advanced Civilization.
First encountered WiF at age 16 when my wargaming community was expanded as I went to a new school. Took some nasty beatings there as well as in Diplomacy.

When it comes to PC games I once spent 38hrs straight in front of Civilization

, also a huge fan of Panzer General (the original one!!) and Steel Panthers. Also enjoy FoF and CoG these days.

Became aware of Matrixgames with the purchase of UV, and then found out that this is were WiF will finally be converted to PC, so was not too hard to keep me here then

(in reply to micheljq)

Post #: 23

RE: Traditional Wargames Revived - 10/25/2008 4:31:16 AM

morgil

Posts: 114
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From: Bergen, Norway
Status: offline

Im 39, and started gaming at around 20 when I finally managed to escape from the dreadfull countrylife on a small island.
Im quite sure that Genesis, the original MUD, was the reason i failed at university. However during the nineties I had too much fun playing any game, computer, board or RPG, I could come across to give education much thought.
And I still do, when I dont have to werk. Its funny how rent and food money suddenly becomes an issue after you pass 30.

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Post #: 24

RE: Traditional Wargames Revived - 10/25/2008 10:11:02 AM

jesperpehrson

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I am 28 and I play very little these days. We have a semi-dormant game of WIF that we play on and off (one of our players moved to Japan) but we get the occasional surge when timeconstraints ease up a little. Other than that I play mainly wargames on the computer.

In the past I have played lots and lots of boardsgames and I am especially fond of the Brittiania, Hispania and Maharadja series. Very good gaming. I also like 7 Ages.

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Post #: 25

RE: Traditional Wargames Revived - 10/25/2008 1:16:43 PM

Espen

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I'm 36, and have been playing at a local gaming club in Oslo since mid-'90's. Favorites among the boardgames include Advanced Civilization (especially the one with 18 players on a board that goes to the Bay of Bengal), Britannia, ASL, WiF, EiA/EiH, 1830...

I play Civ IV, Rome:TW and EU III on the PC.

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Post #: 26

RE: Traditional Wargames Revived - 10/25/2008 1:23:53 PM

Sgt.Fury25

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Im 52 and am anxiously waiting for this release.While I wasnt an avid board gamer I am a comp wargamer from the 80s kampgruppe,mech brigade,etc.I will give this a shot,hope I can handle it.

(in reply to Anendrue)

Post #: 27

RE: Traditional Wargames Revived - 10/25/2008 8:29:32 PM

bredsjomagnus

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Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Sweden
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quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: bredsjomagnus

I almost started to think that I was the youngest wargamer on earth ; im 32.

Hah old man
And tbh I'm the second oldest in my gaming group (oldest is 31, youngest 19)

Ok, 19 is the record so far.

I felt like a old man when I played WoW a few years ago.

(in reply to Sgt.Fury25)

Post #: 28

RE: Traditional Wargames Revived - 10/25/2008 10:30:52 PM

SLAAKMAN

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quote:

Its funny how rent and food money suddenly becomes an issue after you pass 30.

Doesnt that suck?!

At 49 thats all my so-called "peers" think about these days. (Boring!) I avoid these crusty fools like the plague. (Fortunately we have a WiF cult here that ignores the foolish outside world so we can focus upon the only meaning of life; WiF Global Campaign w/most mods & house rules added!).

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Post #: 29

RE: Traditional Wargames Revived - 10/27/2008 1:43:15 PM

pzgndr

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From: Maryland
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quote:

If so, is it even possible to get the rights to do such games or have they been bought and sold into oblivion like 3rd Reich?

I would like to see an official computer game for Advanced Third Reich one of these days. I've made my own unofficial adaptation mod for SC2, including challenging AI for both sides, but still would like the "real" thing. The PC version of the original Third Reich fell quite flat.

I am not a WiF player but I am greatly looking forward to this computer version. Hopefully the ETO scenario will surpass Advanced Third Reich and provide a new benchmark. Whether it's WiF or A3R or Totaler Krieg or whatever, ETO gamers like myself are looking for a decent computer game with challenging AI. The appeal of WiF is that it also includes the PTO and global game scenarios to ease into, and all in one package.