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Artillery - 10/24/2008 3:34:55 PM

Dualnet

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Joined: 11/16/2005
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Can anyone explain the logic of artillery producing higher levels of fire power the closer the aiming point?

From my point of view, a high explosive shell should have the same effect whether it hits the ground 1000yrds or 2000yds away.

Also the ability to switch, within a 6 minute period, from one target on one side of the battlefield to another on the other side of the battlefield and back again can�t be right.

Jason - Can we change this to more readily reflect reality. I would like to see the ability of artillery restricted in switching from firing at a target more than a certain number of hexes away from the last aiming point.

So the sequence would be
1 fire at hex A1 - The gun/battery can fire at any adjacent hex or same hex in that same turn with it's second shot.
2 Next turn � the gun/battery can aim at same point or within several hexes of it but if you wish to fire 20+ hexes away the gun will be unavailable until the following turn.

Also distance should have no effect on the fire points

Post #: 1

RE: Artillery - 10/24/2008 6:57:26 PM

cw58

Posts: 277
Joined: 8/4/2007
From: Hanford, CA, US
Status: offline

It's not really higher fire power but better accuracy at closer range. The attack strength value is adjusted by the defender's defense strength value and then compared on a combat table to determine damage, etc. Think "to hit" rather than "damage". You can find information on the subject on p.54 in the MCS-Manual103 located in the manuals folder. And you can find the combat table in a file called "PDATA" in the appropriate game folder (EF/WF/RS) or in-game by pressing "F3".

As for changing artillery targets so quickly, I'll let someone else try to answer that one.

(in reply to Dualnet)

Post #: 2

RE: Artillery - 10/24/2008 8:24:57 PM

countblue

Posts: 160
Joined: 1/8/2008
From: Vienna,Austria
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I guess it would be hard to implement in the game engine.
But lets see what Jason says.

With the switching targets argument your are obviously right.
But then you would need parameters for the switching time.
The handling of switching targets would always be the same regardless of the size of the artillery piece from 80mm mortars to 17 cm big guns.
That would not be realistic either I guess.

I can live with this. Not everything is perfect within the game engine.

CB

(in reply to cw58)

Post #: 3

RE: Artillery - 10/25/2008 3:38:29 AM

timshin42

Posts: 63
Joined: 9/6/2007
From: Edgewater, Florida, USA
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A well trained Field Artillery Battalion Fire Direction Center, be it 105 towed or 155SP, can redirect fires from any of its Batteries to any target anywhere on the map within firing range in well less than 60 seconds, using manual chart and graphical or tabular tables developed during WWII . If it were to take 5 more minutes (including time-of flight) for the Battery to put steel on the target, then the Battery Commander, the Battery XO, the Chief of Smoke, and all the Gun Section Chiefs should be "sent to the Eastern Front" (sorry, a mixed metaphor!) and replaced by a bunch of Infantry Mortarmen. Ask anyone else who has been a Battalion Fire Direction Officer of both towed and self propelled artillery in the days when firing commands were calculated manually (no computers).
BTW cw58's first sentence hit the nail on the head, both for the game and in RW. Countblue, what you state as obvious is absolutely incorrect in RW artillery. I've been there!

Bear in mind I am speaking with authority ONLY about American Field Artillery. I would think that German artillery would have been equally effective. Can't speak to the Brits, Italians or the French, and I would guess that the Soviet artillery was not equally flexible.

"Steel Behind the Rock"

< Message edited by timshin42 -- 10/25/2008 3:58:23 AM >

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timshin42
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Post #: 4

RE: Artillery - 10/25/2008 3:53:28 PM

countblue

Posts: 160
Joined: 1/8/2008
From: Vienna,Austria
Status: offline

I must admit I was guessing a bit.
But I imagined it hard to move a 17 cm piece to lets say fire in a 45 deg angle to the previous pos.

If I remember correctly an artillery piece of that size had a pretty limited sidewise traversion. probably 10-15 deg max without moving the piece. Thats why I was assuming that it took some minutes (10-15) to get the piece to the new facing.
We talk only about any towed pieces not about SP of course and only about big stuff 10.5 upwards, do we?

But of course I value your opinion higher than my guessing, just never had a chance to hear that firsthand. ;-)
So, its "Yes Sir".

CB

(in reply to timshin42)

Post #: 5

RE: Artillery - 10/25/2008 5:01:40 PM

timshin42

Posts: 63
Joined: 9/6/2007
From: Edgewater, Florida, USA
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coluntblue: It would require a well trained gun crew with the "pig" (8" towed), But 5 minutes including time of flight to relay the piece and get steel on the target does not seem unrealistic to me. Any comments from any 8" towed guys out there?

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timshin42
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Post #: 6

RE: Artillery - 10/25/2008 6:28:59 PM

timshin42

Posts: 63
Joined: 9/6/2007
From: Edgewater, Florida, USA
Status: offline

countblue:

The 8" M1 (later M115) had a total traverse of 60 degrees. As an advisor to a Kansas National Guard 8" towed unit during 1968 summer training, I was amazed at the high degree of skill with which the National Guard Artillerymen handled these huge mountains of steel. My Father-in-Law picked up a Bronze Star as Chief of Smoke of an 8" Battery on Luzon. Wish he were still around to really answer your questions.

The 155mm towed (M114) had a total traverse of 49 degrees, but then it was a lot easier and much faster to relay a 155 towed gun section.

Mighty happy about your interest in artillery. It is not modelled well in any games I know of. The most potent artillery technique, the TOT (time-on target) developed by American artillerymen during WWII appears nowhere in gameland, possibly due to lack of interest on the part of the majority of gamers and designers. After all, maneuver is the "fun" part of gaming!

I am hoping someone out there can shoot me down, and refer me to a game which attempts to model artillery to any degree of satifaction.
In the meantime, I remain here, loving all the great games produced by Matriix et. al, and the many great scenarios designed by so many of our dedicated player/designers.

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timshin42
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Post #: 7

RE: Artillery - 10/27/2008 4:39:40 PM

Dualnet

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Joined: 11/16/2005
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Whilst I'm sure your correct about the theoretical change time. I've spoken to artillery men who explained the technique of spotting, range firing, and then call for fire on target.

As this relies on communication, and human beings under battle condition, I don�t believe it would always take 60 sec. Also who makes the decision about which target is given priority; when given conflicting calls from different frontline units asking for artillery support. At the moment you can place the entire army's artillery on one hex. In reality Artillery was either assign to a specific task or in support of a particular unit and wouldn't switch from that task.

There is no adequate allocation or assigning of artillery units to either specific tasks or units within the game and I believe there ought to be. The current; fire on anything, from anywhere, in support of any unit, is frankly unrealistic, even given the ability of an artillery unit to switch aiming points quickly.

(in reply to countblue)

Post #: 8

RE: Artillery - 11/19/2008 6:52:13 AM

Achsah

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the closer the enemy is the more effective artillery is because there is less error correction. ie the FEE is more accurate in the *abstract of CS time* CS is an abstract as a whole not a "combat simulator" It is even at a scale where realistic simulation is impossible.

(in reply to Dualnet)

Post #: 9