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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> After Action Reports >> RE: Small Ship, Big War

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RE: Small Ship, Big War - 10/25/2008 11:59:07 AM

tocaff

Posts: 4781
Joined: 10/12/2006
From: USA now in Brasil
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Situation normal aboard Hibiki with all of her crew.

I still can't get over what a wonderful job you do telling your tale.� CF, you've really outdone yourself with this and I can't even call it an AAR because in truth it's so much more. There are others out there whose AARs are enjoyable to track, but your story is nothing short of masterful.� Thanks for the time and effort you put into this for our enjoyment.� Kudos.......

I'd like to offer my services to you if you ever feel the need for some research for this work of art and find that your time prohibits you from conducting it. Sort of my way of paying you back for what you've been giving to me. You've got my email.

< Message edited by tocaff -- 10/25/2008 12:03:37 PM >

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Todd

I never thought that doing an AAR would be so time consuming and difficult.
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Post #: 3631

RE: Small Ship, Big War - 10/25/2008 3:52:25 PM

princep01

Posts: 943
Joined: 8/7/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

Poor, poor Lt. Miharu....walked right into the trap...and it seems it 'snapped' shut on him.

Heehee.....I see your point, but think the result was more of a "monsoon of tears" than the violence a "flight of cook vessels and other handy objects":).

(in reply to Shark7)

Post #: 3632

RE: Small Ship, Big War - 10/25/2008 5:26:53 PM

Shark7

Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
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quote:

ORIGINAL: princep01

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

Poor, poor Lt. Miharu....walked right into the trap...and it seems it 'snapped' shut on him.

Heehee.....I see your point, but think the result was more of a "monsoon of tears" than the violence a "flight of cook vessels and other handy objects":).

Either way, the end result is the same...as we have seen. hehehe

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Post #: 3633

RE: Small Ship, Big War - 10/26/2008 5:10:15 PM

kaleun

Posts: 5145
Joined: 5/29/2002
From: Colorado
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quote:

a "monsoon of tears" than the violence a "flight of cook vessels and other handy objects":).

Princep01: I now know who you are!

George R Martin: Get off this forum immediately and finish "Dance of Dragons"

Seriously, I love a great turn of phrase and those two are spectacular (If you are not George R Martin.

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Appear at places to which he must hasten; move swiftly where he does not expect you.
Sun Tzu

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Post #: 3634

RE: Small Ship, Big War - 10/27/2008 10:36:43 PM

John 3rd

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From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline

Kaleun--I am a HUGE fan of the Martin books and cannot WAIT for the next one!

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Post #: 3635

RE: Small Ship, Big War - 10/28/2008 12:34:44 AM

Cuttlefish

Posts: 2454
Joined: 1/24/2007
From: Oregon, USA
Status: offline

September 7, 1944

Location: Osaka/Kobe
Course: None
Attached to: Disbanded in port
Mission: None
System Damage: 3
Float Damage: 0
Fires: 0
Fuel: 475

Orders: Undergo refit at Kobe

---

�I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.� General George S. Patton, whose Third Army has just crossed the Meuse River in northern France, has never uttered these exact words, which will be made famous in a movie twenty-six years from now. He has, however, said things rather similar and there is little doubt that the quote nicely sums up Patton�s attitude.

Captain Ishii has never met or even heard of General Patton. He would, however, agree with the quote if he ever heard it.

---

�I would like to help sink an enemy battleship before I die,� says a lieutenant commander named Kaku. He and several other officers, Ishii included, are discussing the war situation at a reception at the Kobe Naval Headquarters. �Or better still, an aircraft carrier!�

�It is unlikely the enemy will offer you that chance,� says Lieutenant Commander Hajime, captain of Hibiki�s surviving sister ship Inazuma. �What is important is that we face death bravely, in whatever battle it comes.� The conversation continues in this vein for several minutes, until finally Ishii can stand it no longer.

�I hear a lot of talk about dying,� he says. �While I respect the spirit behind it, I must disagree. We are naval officers. It is not our job to die, it is our job to destroy the enemy.�

�You have been out there, Ishii,� says Hajime. �You know what we are facing. Tell me you are not among those fools who still talk of sweeping the enemy from the seas!�

�Of course not,� says Ishii. �Our resources are too limited and theirs too great. But that is why we must preserve our forces, not throw them away in some quest to die bravely. All this talk of dying, I hear it everywhere. Bah! I mean to keep fighting. If my ship is sunk I will find another and continue. Dying is what the enemy wants us to do! �

�Are you a coward, then?� asks Kaku. The gathering goes very quiet. Hajime, who knows Ishii fairly well, eyes him nervously.

Ishii tosses back his drink. �If you were a real officer and not a shore-bound pencil pusher I might take offense at that,� he says softly. �Instead all I have to say is this. I have the courage to face whatever comes, even defeat. Can you say the same?� He sets down his glass and walks from the room.

(in reply to Cuttlefish)

Post #: 3636

RE: Small Ship, Big War - 10/28/2008 2:13:06 AM

princep01

Posts: 943
Joined: 8/7/2006
From: Texas
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The truly brave man simply walks away from the ignorant fool. Well done, brave Captain.

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Post #: 3637

RE: Small Ship, Big War - 10/28/2008 8:23:34 PM

Capt. Harlock

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Joined: 9/15/2001
From: Los Angeles
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quote:

ORIGINAL: princep01

The truly brave man simply walks away from the ignorant fool. Well done, brave Captain.

Perhaps -- but it's not the classic Japanese attitude, which prefers death to defeat. Let's hope this doesn't get back to the secret police . . .

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Post #: 3638

RE: Small Ship, Big War - 10/28/2008 9:01:01 PM

vettim89

Posts: 3615
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Toledo, Ohio
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt. Harlock

quote:

ORIGINAL: princep01

The truly brave man simply walks away from the ignorant fool. Well done, brave Captain.

Perhaps -- but it's not the classic Japanese attitude, which prefers death to defeat. Let's hope this doesn't get back to the secret police . . .

The Japanese vs Western view on so many issues led to WWII and so many misunderstandings. One Japanese officer denying the jurisdiction of the War Crimes Tribunal said that if the Japanese had won the war LeMay and others would be on trial for crimes against teh Japanese citizenry. We as Westerners rail against the Rape of Nanking yet turn a blind eye to the hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians burned to death by LeMay's fire bombing campaign.

The concept of defeat and surrender could not be more polar opposites when considering the Western view vs. Japanese. The Allies saw no shame in surrendering when faced with a hopeless situation. Our view is that the mindless sacrifice of men's lives with no hope of success would be dereliction of duty on part of the commanders. The Japanese view would be that it would be shameful for a commander to even ask his men to dishonor themselves by surrendering. The poor treatment of PoW's by the Japanese was rooted in the belief that this men had shamed themselves and their familes with such a dishonarble act as surrender that they did not deserve to be treated well.

So having many Japanese officers and enlisted men believe that death is preferabel to defeat is very in keeping with their mindset. A person could make the point that true courage is admitting you are defeated as opposed to mindless sacrifice for no reason. Read Seas of Thinder recently where the premise that Kurita's withdraw at Leyte Gulf was a carefully orchestrated ruse to save his men and ships from a pointless sacrifice.

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Post #: 3639

RE: Small Ship, Big War - 10/28/2008 9:30:29 PM

FeurerKrieg

Posts: 3397
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Denver, CO
Status: offline

Recently read Seas of Thunder myself - pretty good book.

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Upper portion used with permission of www.subart.net, copyright John Meeks

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Post #: 3640

RE: Small Ship, Big War - 10/28/2008 11:36:25 PM

Cuttlefish

Posts: 2454
Joined: 1/24/2007
From: Oregon, USA
Status: offline

September 8, 1944

Location: Osaka/Kobe
Course: None
Attached to: Disbanded in port
Mission: None
System Damage: 2
Float Damage: 0
Fires: 0
Fuel: 475

Orders: Undergo refit at Kobe

---

The new radar sets are tested and found, after some adjustments, to be working properly. The new anti-aircraft guns are ready. Chief Engineer Sakati reports that he is ready to bring steam back up in the boilers.

From one end of Hibiki to the other yard workers and crewmen finish their tasks. Access hatches are bolted back in place. Cables are coiled and tools and equipment removed. The clutter of work in progress is replaced by swept decks and fresh paint. By tomorrow Hibiki will be ready to return to the war.

(in reply to Cuttlefish)

Post #: 3641

RE: Small Ship, Big War - 10/28/2008 11:38:01 PM

Cuttlefish

Posts: 2454
Joined: 1/24/2007
From: Oregon, USA
Status: offline

September 9, 1944

Location: Osaka/Kobe
Course: None
Attached to: Disbanded in port
Mission: None
System Damage: 0
Float Damage: 0
Fires: 0
Fuel: 475

Orders: Undergo refit at Kobe

---

�We have new orders,� Captain Ishii tells the officers he has gathered in the wardroom for a quick briefing. �We are to remain here until Hiyo finishes her refit and then escort the carrier to Tokyo. Since Hiyo won�t be ready to sail for at least a week that gives us some time for drills. We will gain experience with the new radars and drill the new anti-aircraft crews. Lieutenant Kuwaki, most of this will fall to your section, but I want the rest of you to work your men hard as well.�

There is a chorus of assent from around the table. �Sir,� says Lieutenant Sugiyura, �on the radio a short while ago there was a report that the enemy was landing at Tinian. Have you heard anything further?�

�I have not,� says Ishii. �I know the enemy began their assault this morning but that is all. If you are wondering whether we will be sent south, I doubt it.�

�I understand, sir,� says Sugiyura. �We must draw the enemy in closer before we strike. Which really means that the closer the enemy gets to Japan the closer we are to victory.�

Captain Ishii blinks. �Right,� he says after a moment. �Now back to matters at hand. Lieutenant Miharu, I would like you to coordinate��

(in reply to Cuttlefish)

Post #: 3642

RE: Small Ship, Big War - 10/28/2008 11:39:47 PM

Cuttlefish

Posts: 2454
Joined: 1/24/2007
From: Oregon, USA
Status: offline

September 10, 1944

Location: Osaka/Kobe
Course: None
Attached to: Disbanded in port
Mission: None
System Damage: 0
Float Damage: 0
Fires: 0
Fuel: 475

Orders: Undergo refit at Kobe

---

Hibiki stalks an unsuspecting freighter plodding along the coast near Kobe. Below decks Taiki peers at his radar scope.

�Range eight-one-eight-zero meters,� comes a voice.

�Radar, confirm,� comes another voice down the speaking tube. Taiki wipes sweat off his brow � it is hot in the small, dimly lit room � and tries to isolate the target from the shore return. He is already discovering that having memorized the manual and the specifications will only take him so far. Reading the scope is as much an art as it is a science.

�Confirmed,� he says after a short delay. �Radar show range as eight-two-zero-zero meters.� The rectangular display has range markings along the bottom but the device is not as precise as the sophisticated optics in the range finder. Other voices add to the background chatter but Taiki screens them out, watching intently for changes in range and bearing. A moment later comes the order to fire. Hibiki�s guns remain silent, of course, and their �prey� continues on its way.

�Slow!� comes Lieutenant Kuwaki�s voice. �Too slow! If that was an enemy destroyer they would have gotten off two salvoes against us before we fired a shot. We will circle around and try that again.�

Taiki sighs and leans back. He looks over at Seaman Oka, seated a few feet away at the Type 13 display. Sweat beads the back of Oka�s neck. �How are you doing, Oka?� he says.

�Fine, Petty Officer,� says Oka. His voice sounds a bit strained. The young sailor had earlier identified the Kobe naval radio transmission tower as an approaching aircraft.

�Don�t worry,� Taiki says. �We will gain skill.�

�Let us begin again,� comes Kuwaki�s voice. Once more the poor freighter is �spotted� and the exercise starts over.

(in reply to Cuttlefish)

Post #: 3643

RE: Small Ship, Big War - 10/29/2008 4:33:30 AM

Cribtop

Posts: 3890
Joined: 8/10/2008
From: Lone Star Nation
Status: offline

I do not disagree with the points made below, but would add that there is a contrary Western tradition of facing death bravely rather than surrender. This tradition is exemplified by Thermopylae, several incidents in Op. Market-Garden, the Alamo, etc (as a Texan I had to mention the Alamo).

However, these may be the exceptions that prove the rule rather than counter-examples. In most of these incidents, the sacrifice was seen to have a purpose for the broader war effort or society. Thermopylae and the Alamo for example were each a tactically hopeless stand designed to buy time for strategic victory.

In short, it's the old spaghetti western cliche - "You go on, I'll hold them off."

quote:

ORIGINAL: vettim89

quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt. Harlock

quote:

ORIGINAL: princep01

The truly brave man simply walks away from the ignorant fool. Well done, brave Captain.

Perhaps -- but it's not the classic Japanese attitude, which prefers death to defeat. Let's hope this doesn't get back to the secret police . . .

The Japanese vs Western view on so many issues led to WWII and so many misunderstandings. One Japanese officer denying the jurisdiction of the War Crimes Tribunal said that if the Japanese had won the war LeMay and others would be on trial for crimes against teh Japanese citizenry. We as Westerners rail against the Rape of Nanking yet turn a blind eye to the hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians burned to death by LeMay's fire bombing campaign.

The concept of defeat and surrender could not be more polar opposites when considering the Western view vs. Japanese. The Allies saw no shame in surrendering when faced with a hopeless situation. Our view is that the mindless sacrifice of men's lives with no hope of success would be dereliction of duty on part of the commanders. The Japanese view would be that it would be shameful for a commander to even ask his men to dishonor themselves by surrendering. The poor treatment of PoW's by the Japanese was rooted in the belief that this men had shamed themselves and their familes with such a dishonarble act as surrender that they did not deserve to be treated well.

So having many Japanese officers and enlisted men believe that death is preferabel to defeat is very in keeping with their mindset. A person could make the point that true courage is admitting you are defeated as opposed to mindless sacrifice for no reason. Read Seas of Thinder recently where the premise that Kurita's withdraw at Leyte Gulf was a carefully orchestrated ruse to save his men and ships from a pointless sacrifice.

(in reply to vettim89)

Post #: 3644

RE: Small Ship, Big War - 10/29/2008 10:28:01 AM

fuelli

Posts: 233
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Germany
Status: offline

Maybe the basic difference is that in Japanese culture the life of a human beeing is devoted to a higher purpose while in the 20th century western culture the life of a human being IS the higher pupose.

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Post #: 3645

RE: Small Ship, Big War - 10/29/2008 11:40:18 AM

tocaff

Posts: 4781
Joined: 10/12/2006
From: USA now in Brasil
Status: offline

Well put, or in other words the Western culture placed a higher value on life than did the Eastern.

_____________________________

Todd

I never thought that doing an AAR would be so time consuming and difficult.
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Post #: 3646

RE: Small Ship, Big War - 10/29/2008 3:43:54 PM

thegreatwent

Posts: 3011
Joined: 8/24/2004
From: Denver, CO
Status: offline

quote:

Well put, or in other words the Western culture placed a higher value on life than did the Eastern.

Only after the Age of Enlightenment. Previous to that life was Feudal

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Post #: 3647

RE: Small Ship, Big War - 10/29/2008 4:16:33 PM

tocaff

Posts: 4781
Joined: 10/12/2006
From: USA now in Brasil
Status: offline

Oh yeah, the human race is enlightened. We're getting better & better at killing eachother off all of the time.

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Todd

I never thought that doing an AAR would be so time consuming and difficult.
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Post #: 3648

RE: Small Ship, Big War - 10/29/2008 6:34:00 PM

kaleun

Posts: 5145
Joined: 5/29/2002
From: Colorado
Status: offline

quote:

Oh yeah, the human race is enlightened. We're getting better & better at killing eachother off all of the time

That's not really a contradiction. We can obliterate a whole city with a nuclear device but at the same time we are much more intolerant of civilian casualties than back in the 40s. No industrialized nation would condone carpet bombing a la Dresden or Hamburg.

_____________________________

Appear at places to which he must hasten; move swiftly where he does not expect you.
Sun Tzu

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Post #: 3649

RE: Small Ship, Big War - 10/29/2008 7:39:29 PM

Cuttlefish

Posts: 2454
Joined: 1/24/2007
From: Oregon, USA
Status: offline

September 11, 1944

Location: Osaka/Kobe
Course: None
Attached to: Disbanded in port
Mission: None
System Damage: 0
Float Damage: 0
Fires: 0
Fuel: 475

Orders: Undergo refit at Kobe

---

While Hibiki and her crew wait for Hiyo to be ready to sail let�s turn our attention briefly to the jungle somewhere near Mandalay:

---

Frank Barnwell rotates slowly in the air and contemplates the jungle floor, which he figures is about twenty feet below him. He then looks up at his parachute shrouds. These lead up to the thick canopy of vegetation overhead, almost unbroken except for the neat Barnwell-sized hole he punched in it coming down. As he watches the shrouds twist slowly together. His rotation slows, stops, and then he gradually begins to spin in the opposite direction.

�Bloody hell,� he says.

Anti-aircraft fire hit the plane as they were passing south over their target, Japanese positions some fifteen miles northwest of the city. Richards, the pilot, tried to turn the plane around but they lost altitude fast. Barnwell was too busy to take much note of their position when the order came to bail out but his best guess is that he is behind enemy lines. He saw at least two other parachutes but does not know whether anybody else made it down safely.

For that matter, he reflects, he hasn�t made it down safely yet. There is still twenty feet to go and as he spins slowly in the air it looks like a long twenty feet. Barnwell sighs.

�Bloody hell,� he says again.

(in reply to Cuttlefish)

Post #: 3650

RE: Small Ship, Big War - 10/29/2008 7:53:48 PM

Mike Solli

Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline

Frank Barnwell? Care to enlighten this old fart whose memory isn't what it used to be?

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Created by the amazing Dixie

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Post #: 3651

RE: Small Ship, Big War - 10/29/2008 8:21:54 PM

String

Posts: 2661
Joined: 10/7/2003
From: Estonia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Frank Barnwell?� Care to enlighten this old fart whose memory isn't what it used to be?

The british blen pilot from the early episodes

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Post #: 3652

RE: Small Ship, Big War - 10/29/2008 8:24:33 PM

Mike Solli

Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline

Ahh, thanks.

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Post #: 3653

RE: Small Ship, Big War - 10/29/2008 9:14:07 PM

Cuttlefish

Posts: 2454
Joined: 1/24/2007
From: Oregon, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Frank Barnwell?� Care to enlighten this old fart whose memory isn't what it used to be?

Frank Barnwell was a radio operator/gunner whose Blenheim was shot down by Hibiki's task force in the early days of the war. He was rescued and held captive aboard Hibiki but escaped when the ship was hit off Borneo a few days later. Excerpts of his escape from the DEI (as recounted in his post-war book "Twelve Islands to Freedom") and subsequent activities have made occasional appearances in the AAR since then.

A while back an alert reader (Grotius, I think) correctly recognized that the character was named after the real-life Frank Barnwell, British aviation designer and inventor of the Blenheim.

Check out this entry for a little bit more on Barnwell. It's still one of my favorites.

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Post #: 3654

RE: Small Ship, Big War - 10/29/2008 9:23:28 PM

Mike Solli

Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
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You're right, Cuttlefish. That is outstanding. One of these days, I'm going to have to start this over from the beginning. 122 pages though.....

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Post #: 3655

RE: Small Ship, Big War - 10/29/2008 9:26:01 PM

Mynok

Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline

I'll bet it's way shorter than military manual.

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Post #: 3656

RE: Small Ship, Big War - 10/29/2008 9:31:13 PM

Cuttlefish

Posts: 2454
Joined: 1/24/2007
From: Oregon, USA
Status: offline

Believe me, I understand. I wrote this stuff and keep notes on who is who and I still forget things. I am not certain but I think each year of the war contains about the same amount of writing as an average novel.

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Post #: 3657

RE: Small Ship, Big War - 10/30/2008 1:11:07 AM

Shark7

Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cuttlefish

Believe me, I understand. I wrote this stuff and keep notes on who is who and I still forget things. I am not certain but I think each year of the war contains about the same amount of writing as an average novel.

You have to keep notes. Even with the short character list I have on 'Thunder in the Pacific' it is very difficult to remember who is who and what they do. I think you are right on the novel part. Only 2 months into my game and I'm already considering starting a new word file due to the length of the one I have.

_____________________________

Distant Worlds Fan

'When in doubt...attack!'

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Post #: 3658

RE: Small Ship, Big War - 10/30/2008 4:59:22 AM

Skipjack

Posts: 408
Joined: 7/4/2006
From: Wisconsin, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cuttlefish

Frank Barnwell rotates slowly in the air and contemplates the jungle floor, which he figures is about twenty feet below him. He then looks up at his parachute shrouds. These lead up to the thick canopy of vegetation overhead, almost unbroken except for the neat Barnwell-sized hole he punched in it coming down. As he watches the shrouds twist slowly together. His rotation slows, stops, and then he gradually begins to spin in the opposite direction.

�Bloody hell,� he says.

Anti-aircraft fire hit the plane as they were passing south over their target, Japanese positions some fifteen miles northwest of the city. Richards, the pilot, tried to turn the plane around but they lost altitude fast. Barnwell was too busy to take much note of their position when the order came to bail out but his best guess is that he is behind enemy lines. He saw at least two other parachutes but does not know whether anybody else made it down safely.

For that matter, he reflects, he hasn�t made it down safely yet. There is still twenty feet to go and as he spins slowly in the air it looks like a long twenty feet. Barnwell sighs.

�Bloody hell,� he says again.

Thanks, Cuttlefish

Although he isn't much heard from, Frank Barnwell is one character I like to keep track of.

(in reply to Cuttlefish)

Post #: 3659

RE: Small Ship, Big War - 10/30/2008 5:25:45 AM

Fallschirmjager

Posts: 6793
Joined: 3/18/2002
From: Chattanooga, Tennessee
Status: offline

I am on page 20 of this wonderful thread and just wanted to share how awesome it is. Easily one of the best AARs I have ever read.

But one thing I have thought the past two hours while reading this.
How ironic would it be if the Hibiki was torpedoed and sunk by the SS Cuttlefish

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Post #: 3660

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