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Which is Better in a DCG, AXIS or ALLIES?

 
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Which is Better in a DCG, AXIS or ALLIES? - 9/22/2008 1:38:20 PM   
marcbarker


Posts: 1213
Joined: 7/6/2008
Status: offline 		Early war I tend to go Axis just because of fire power...Later war 44-45 Allies just because of numerical Sopiorority. If you have a Company of Tigers and going against a Regiment of Shermans....you will get tanked....scuse the pun..


thanks
Marc

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RE: Which is Better in a DCG, AXIS or ALLIES? - 9/22/2008 3:24:25 PM   
simovitch


Posts: 5488
Joined: 2/14/2006
Status: offline 		I usually go with whoever was the attacker.

The random selection feature will attempt to balance out the DCG forces on a point by point basis. So if you choose to command a battalion of Tigers you will likely come up short on Infantry, artillery, etc. You will need those infantry to clear out woods and towns, especially with 1.04. Food for thought.

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RE: Which is Better in a DCG, AXIS or ALLIES? - 9/22/2008 3:42:36 PM   
marcbarker


Posts: 1213
Joined: 7/6/2008
Status: offline 		You are correct, those hidden AT's are going to be hell......

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games:
1. AGEOD Blue and Gray
2. John Tiller's Battleground Series
3. Combat Mission: Beyond Overlord
4. Combat Mission: Barbarossa to Berlin
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8. Rise and Fall of the Third Re

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RE: Which is Better in a DCG, AXIS or ALLIES? - 9/22/2008 7:29:32 PM   
simovitch


Posts: 5488
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quote:

ORIGINAL: barker

You are correct, those hidden AT's are going to be hell......

That, and the greatly decreased assault effectiveness of armour in closed terrain. It's been my experience that you can all but forget about a successful assault by tanks into urban areas.

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RE: Which is Better in a DCG, AXIS or ALLIES? - 9/23/2008 5:30:25 AM   
Borst50

 

Posts: 261
Joined: 4/1/2008
Status: offline 		I usually go for German in any time period....Early war is tough, (this is in DCG's only), as early Model Pz III units do not have the defense nor the hitting power as the French Tanks (40), or the Brits (41-late 42). Forget even getting close to a T-34 or KV-1 in 41....However....once the IVF2's hit the front lines, things start to even out a little....and by the time IVH's are in the mix, parity has been reached. Then I really get comfortable during 43...by the time of Kursk...my Panthers are just starting to make an appearance...and I am happy until I run into IS II's.

When I play Tigers, nothing seems to stop me unilt the IS II2's hit the party, and the SU 122's...The western Allies dont seem to have a lot that can stand up to a VIE, with the possible exception of the Brit "firefly", I have taken a few losses there. But that goes away as soon as the VIB's upgrade...then look out.....The channel here I come...on the EF, VIE's and IS II's are evenly matched...or it appears to be....this changes once the SU 152 comes in....but at the same time my VIB's are coming to the front line...but I still maintain the edge......once the IS III's come in....then I start to take a little more losses, but still manage to hold them off.

hmmm...a company of tigers vs a REGIMENT???? of Shermans? Does the term "Custer's Last Stand" have any meaning?

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RE: Which is Better in a DCG, AXIS or ALLIES? - 9/23/2008 9:11:21 AM   
marcbarker


Posts: 1213
Joined: 7/6/2008
Status: offline 		i love being the underdog, outnumbered and outgunned....but tigers vs shermans....i will knock out 4 to 1 before they get me.....lol

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games:
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2. John Tiller's Battleground Series
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8. Rise and Fall of the Third Re

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RE: Which is Better in a DCG, AXIS or ALLIES? - 9/23/2008 8:16:55 PM   
1925frank

 

Posts: 1039
Joined: 6/20/2006
Status: offline 		I guess this is addressed to Simovitch. Are there any plans for DCG for the Chinese-Japanese conflict?

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RE: Which is Better in a DCG, AXIS or ALLIES? - 9/23/2008 10:33:10 PM   
simovitch


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 1925frank

I guess this is addressed to Simovitch. Are there any plans for DCG for the Chinese-Japanese conflict?

Unless I get a Vista Machine I should probably not develop any more additions for JTCS. Besides I do not have the historical background for that theater. I need to get back to work on the Panther Games series anyway.

Seems easy enough to do though eh?

PS Frank your movies are hilarious.

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RE: Which is Better in a DCG, AXIS or ALLIES? - 9/26/2008 5:08:23 AM   
Miamieagle

 

Posts: 173
Joined: 10/26/2007
Status: offline 		1925Frank,Yes! that would be nice!

It should would make this series a lot more balance and enjoyable in my humble opinion.

It sure a bit boring when you only fight and play in only one Theater.

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RE: Which is Better in a DCG, AXIS or ALLIES? - 9/27/2008 12:25:32 AM   
Achsah

 

Posts: 57
Joined: 8/17/2007
Status: offline 		             i like defensive games best by far. I learned how to play east front commanding a german inf only battalion. i have also had good games with 41 russian inf only..that is actaully a pretty cool thing to watch.

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RE: Which is Better in a DCG, AXIS or ALLIES? - 10/18/2008 3:19:37 PM   
junk2drive


Posts: 12907
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
Status: offline 		Tried my first DCG, WF. Took France 1940, Armoured, set to easy mode, easy options. Within 8 turns I have been overrun by German PZs. My R35s and ATGs don't hurt much, my troops run at the first sound of rifles. Where are my Char Bs, D2s, Soumas?

Disappointed.

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RE: Which is Better in a DCG, AXIS or ALLIES? - 10/18/2008 4:29:48 PM   
1925frank

 

Posts: 1039
Joined: 6/20/2006
Status: offline 		Years ago, I played as a French armored unit in the 1940 Dynamic Campaign as well.  The Germans come fully loaded with tanks.  My French tanks are vastly outnumbered, and, as the Campaign progressed, I didn't get reinforcements.  If I remember correctly, the Germans were usually given some air support.  I had lots of French infantry that could do virtually nothing against the German armor.  I guess you could assault if you got close enough, but my infantry was usually depleted by the time the German tanks got within one hex.  The French engineers were no better than the French infantry.  The French AT guns were sparse.  I think they had primarily 25 and 37 mm, which provided no real advantage.  I don't recall any French heavy tanks either.  I think I had R35s and maybe some of the light Hotchkiss tanks  (H35 & H38?).  Maybe you have to win a few scenarios before getting the heavier tanks.  I think I won only one scenario and got slaughtered in the others.  From what I read, this reflects what really occurred.

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RE: Which is Better in a DCG, AXIS or ALLIES? - 10/18/2008 5:36:46 PM   
junk2drive


Posts: 12907
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
Status: offline 		Thanks, that confirms my suspicion. When I started losing Batt HQs I knew I was in trouble. Glad I didn't continue.

I understand that France lost the 1940 campaign but the idea of wargames sometimes is to do better than history.

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Post #: 13
RE: Which is Better in a DCG, AXIS or ALLIES? - 10/18/2008 6:06:44 PM   
1925frank

 

Posts: 1039
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Status: offline 		I think the first three weeks were pretty much a route, because the Germans struck France's least-trained troops and most poorly-equiped troops.  France had written off any possibility of an attack through the Ardennes, so France placed it's weakest elements there.  Germany's strongest units and strongest thrust came right through the Ardennes.  I think this Dynamic Campaign reflects the German thrust through the Ardennes and not the feint and secondary thrust in the Netherlands and Belgium.  I wouldn't characterize the fighting in the Netherlands and Belgium as a route by any means.  All of France's best troops and armor were in Belgium and were out of position to do anyone any good for the elements caught in the Ardennes.

I'd like to think I could do better than history too.  I'm sure there are some players who could do miracles with the French. 

I'd also like to think if you did relative well initially, you'd see more French tanks and heavier French tanks.  I think the last three weeks of the campaign were actually harder fought than the first three.  The German advance was steady, but there wasn't the collapse of a house of cards like the first three weeks. 

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RE: Which is Better in a DCG, AXIS or ALLIES? - 10/20/2008 6:57:03 PM   
Achsah

 

Posts: 57
Joined: 8/17/2007
Status: offline 		               sometimes in campaigns the situation requires leaving the map if resisting means getting decimated

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RE: Which is Better in a DCG, AXIS or ALLIES? - 10/21/2008 1:18:10 AM   
Achsah

 

Posts: 57
Joined: 8/17/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: junk2drive

Tried my first DCG, WF. Took France 1940, Armoured, set to easy mode, easy options. Within 8 turns I have been overrun by German PZs. My R35s and ATGs don't hurt much, my troops run at the first sound of rifles. Where are my Char Bs, D2s, Soumas?

Disappointed.


After reading this discussion about the french campaign as french, i decided to try out at least one mission in one to see if i could pull out a win using normal setting. I remember when i played quite a few games with a german inf battalion in the same campaign and found the french to be much superior to 1941 russian infantry. These french infantry are well equipped and if played deftly can be used to protect your tanks either directly or indirectly(ie exploit the ai). I finished the delaying action mission without giving up a single objective and only losing one tank on the last turn *grumbles something about german luck) and destroyed almost the entire german armored force. I think they had some 7 tanks in two platoons. The main problem with french armor is not their gun but mobility. One thing to remember tho. if you choose the extreme assault option this task becomes far more difficult. Although in this particular game, assaults only gave local successes and the game result would have been much the same. i recommend the option not be used for the standard game since it was created and tested under non extreme conditions. This hold true for all the old scenarios also. The campaign can be a great tool tho for training using extreme assault so that one gets a feel for it in H2H play.

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Post #: 16
RE: Which is Better in a DCG, AXIS or ALLIES? - 10/21/2008 6:07:53 AM   
junk2drive


Posts: 12907
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
Status: offline 		Sounds like you are a much better player than I am.

I did play with armour facing off to be fair to the AI. I may need it on to take advantage of rear and side shots.

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Post #: 17
RE: Which is Better in a DCG, AXIS or ALLIES? - 10/21/2008 8:21:16 PM   
warhead2


Posts: 92
Joined: 7/31/2003
From: alabama
Status: offline 		you have to as germans facing france in 1940 or russia in 1941
though I always play on the hard setting too
which means half my shots are attenuated and half of the enemie's shots are amplified
I believe the figure is 15%
and this mod apllies to arty fire too

I have a france'40 dcg going at the moment as germans using armor facing at the hard setting
my armor is decimated
many,many single vehicle platoons
my infantry is chopped up too
I think I'm on the 6th game but still manage to score good or outstanding results with a lone draw

but I've been playing this game since nov 1997
and know how to get the most out of each unit

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RE: Which is Better in a DCG, AXIS or ALLIES? - 10/21/2008 9:05:56 PM   
1925frank

 

Posts: 1039
Joined: 6/20/2006
Status: offline 		I think the French infantry has an attack value of 8 at one hex.  Russian infantry for the same period has an attack value of only 6.

I haven't figured out how to use the French infantry deftly.  The German tanks, infantry, and artillery cut my French infantry to ribbons from a distance.  The French tanks are on a par or even a little superior to the German tanks with the possible exception of firing cost. 

It's encouraging to hear someone knows how to use the units to get a good result for the French. 


< Message edited by 1925frank -- 10/21/2008 10:28:12 PM >

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RE: Which is Better in a DCG, AXIS or ALLIES? - 10/21/2008 10:25:35 PM   
andym


Posts: 1117
Joined: 7/12/2006
From: Kings Lynn UK
Status: offline 		The French do have a habit of surrendering en mass to German Gulaschkanone units though!

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RE: Which is Better in a DCG, AXIS or ALLIES? - 10/21/2008 10:57:00 PM   
1925frank

 

Posts: 1039
Joined: 6/20/2006
Status: offline 		Pasha, could you put together an AAR explaining your deft use of infantry?

My experience was there were a number of victory hexes in every scenario and that a fair number of them were often right out in the open.  I don't see how French infantry could defend them successfully.  German infantry can attack at 6 at two hexes, and German machine gun platoons might get a 9 attack value at two hexes (I forget).  Even when it was infantry on infantry, the Germans had a range advantage.  It wasn't like trying to defend a victory hex in the middle of a city or the middle of a woods.

I read somewhere that the French inflicted more losses on the Germans during the six-weeks the French were in the war in 1940 than the Soviets inflicted on the Germans during the Soviets' first six weeks of war in 1941.

It's what happened after the first six weeks where France's and the Soviet Union's stories take different paths.

A large number of the French troops taken from Dunkirk were sent back to France to fight. 

And then there was Petain's radio message saying it was time for an armistice and to put down arms.  Petain did this before an armistice had yet been signed.  This caused chaos as a large number of troops were falsely under the impression there was, in fact, an armistice signed and that they could put down their arms.

With leaders like Petain, Pierre Laval, and Bonnet, I wouldn't have risked my life defending that government either.

If the British had Chamberlain in office in June 1940, the British might have knuckled under as well.  I question whether the average British soldier would have fought for Chamberlain, who got them into the mess.  I think it was a lot easier for the average British soldier to fight for Churchill, who pledged to get them out of this mess.  The only French leader with the backbone to fight on was DeGaulle, and he fought on despite monumental odds.  When France made its governmental shift in June 1940, it was the side opposed to fighting that took over.  When Churchill took office in May 1940, Great Britain took a governmental shift in the exact opposite direction.

I don't believe people make disparaging remarks about the Poles, the Danes, the Norwegians, the Dutch, the Belgians, the Yugoslaves, or the Greeks. What's different is their governments went into exile and continued the war with whatever was left. The French government surrendered and gave up the fight, and then the Vichy government tried to monkey a fascist regime. DeGaulle was sentenced to death by the Vichy government for wanting to continue the fight. I just think the opprobrium should be thrown on the French political leaders rather than on the average French soldier.

< Message edited by 1925frank -- 10/21/2008 11:18:45 PM >

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RE: Which is Better in a DCG, AXIS or ALLIES? - 10/21/2008 11:58:20 PM   
Achsah

 

Posts: 57
Joined: 8/17/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 1925frank

Pasha, could you put together an AAR explaining your deft use of infantry?

My experience was there were a number of victory hexes in every scenario and that a fair number of them were often right out in the open.  I don't see how French infantry could defend them successfully.  German infantry can attack at 6 at two hexes, and German machine gun platoons might get a 9 attack value at two hexes (I forget).  Even when it was infantry on infantry, the Germans had a range advantage.  It wasn't like trying to defend a victory hex in the middle of a city or the middle of a woods.

I read somewhere that the French inflicted more losses on the Germans during the six-weeks the French were in the war in 1940 than the Soviets inflicted on the Germans during the Soviets' first six weeks of war in 1941.

It's what happened after the first six weeks where France's and the Soviet Union's stories take different paths.

A large number of the French troops taken from Dunkirk were sent back to France to fight. 

And then there was Petain's radio message saying it was time for an armistice and to put down arms.  Petain did this before an armistice had yet been signed.  This caused chaos as a large number of troops were falsely under the impression there was, in fact, an armistice signed and that they could put down their arms.

With leaders like Petain, Pierre Laval, and Bonnet, I wouldn't have risked my life defending that government either.

If the British had Chamberlain in office in June 1940, the British might have knuckled under as well.  I question whether the average British soldier would have fought for Chamberlain, who got them into the mess.  I think it was a lot easier for the average British soldier to fight for Churchill, who pledged to get them out of this mess.  The only French leader with the backbone to fight on was DeGaulle, and he fought on despite monumental odds.  When France made its governmental shift in June 1940, it was the side opposed to fighting that took over.  When Churchill took office in May 1940, Great Britain took a governmental shift in the exact opposite direction.

I don't believe people make disparaging remarks about the Poles, the Danes, the Norwegians, the Dutch, the Belgians, the Yugoslaves, or the Greeks. What's different is their governments went into exile and continued the war with whatever was left. The French government surrendered and gave up the fight, and then the Vichy government tried to monkey a fascist regime. DeGaulle was sentenced to death by the Vichy government for wanting to continue the fight. I just think the opprobrium should be thrown on the French political leaders rather than on the average French soldier.

there is a lot here to discuss perhaps the history stuff should be in a different thread. Sure i will help you with an after action of the game i talked about yesterday..i made a few screenys. To the other players that have been following this. CS solitaire on the harder settings makes solitaire play far more exiting. The heavy skew or even turning off armor facing effects in my opinion is not recommended at least for my limitations since consistent use of those features will effect how i play in head to head. A lot of play is just feel..so i make the campaign feel like a real game as far as dice go and rear end shots.
Frank. French infantry were fine soldiers. maybe not the greatest marksmen(training)..but what did that matter. France was very powerful in terms of weight of steel. Mobility (ie mp and fire cost) was their big weakness tank for tank. In 1940 much can be explained by the prior war. France sufferd very heavily as did Britain and germany in numbers of youth wiped out in a short time. I think that Napoleon and WW1 simply burnt them out in the sense that once the german exploited allied command problems, they would just ride out a temporary german occupation. Brits are a different kind of attitude and there was still that little mote called English channel chamberlain or not.As far as risking ones life. In my opinion you never fight for your government..you fight to protect your mother and your sister!.
I want to post an After action report in that thread for those interested but my screens are to large in jpeg format..*grumbles something* Maybe someone can help me with posting screens here or i will help with email should all fail.

< Message edited by Pasha -- 10/22/2008 1:35:33 AM >

(in reply to 1925frank)
Post #: 22
RE: Which is Better in a DCG, AXIS or ALLIES? - 10/22/2008 1:35:53 AM   
1925frank

 

Posts: 1039
Joined: 6/20/2006
Status: offline 		I've poked fun at the French in my videos on the same theme. I'm not faulting Andym.

Petain did have arguments in his favor. He may have reasonably believed the Germans would leave after a short stay as they did in 1815 and 1870, that France would pay restitution, and that would be the end of it.

Also, in June 1940, the Soviet Union and Germany were effectively allied. France's strongest ally, Great Britain, had jumped ship and took all its forces back to the island. Dunkirk was a great accomplishment for the British, but the French don't remember it nearly so fondly. As great as Great Britain was, it was probably hard for Petain to see Great Britain having any prospects of success against Germany and the Soviet Union combined. The US was in no position to help.

The Soviets had troops surrender by the millions in 1941. The British had Singapore and Tobruk. America got caught with its pants down at Pearl Harbor and in the Phillipines. Every country got up off the mat, including the French. Bir Hakeim is one example. The French contributed to the Italian campaign and elsewhere.

In the U.S., it's a running joke how quickly the French will surrender. But we also get irked when they stand up for themselves, as DeGaulle did and as France did in 2003 when it opposed the Iraq war. I guess my point is that the quick-to-surrender stereotype needs to be taken with a grain of salt.


< Message edited by 1925frank -- 10/22/2008 1:36:09 AM >

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Post #: 23
RE: Which is Better in a DCG, AXIS or ALLIES? - 11/5/2008 6:00:00 PM   
Przemos19

 

Posts: 34
Joined: 8/30/2007
Status: offline 		I know two "french jokes"

How many Frenchmen are needed to succesfully defend Paris?
Who knows? Nobody attempted it ever:D

How many gears french tanks have?
Five - one ahead and four reverse.

Ps - we Polish remember words of Chirac in 2003, when he said that Poland did not remain silent when "elders" are talking.

< Message edited by Przemos19 -- 11/5/2008 6:01:08 PM >

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Post #: 24
RE: Which is Better in a DCG, AXIS or ALLIES? - 11/5/2008 8:38:25 PM   
andym


Posts: 1117
Joined: 7/12/2006
From: Kings Lynn UK
Status: offline 		Why are the streets of Paris lined with trees?


So German armies can march in the shade!

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