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what is GOING ON?? - 11/4/2008 10:34:38 PM   
sargexmy

 

Posts: 25
Joined: 4/12/2008
Status: offline 		Is it just me or sherman 75mm are taking out my panthers at long range?

I am facing an american armored group with KG Peiper and at 400+ meters, my panthers are getting taken out by sherman 75s!
ALL WHILE my panthers shots are hitting the shermans with little effect.

like this: Panther fires, sherman 75 immobilized. Next 3-4 shots from panther have no effect.

Sherman takes out panther in 4 to 5 shots eventually.....

makes the game hard to play if it is kind of unrealistic
Post #: 1
RE: what is GOING ON?? - 11/4/2008 10:50:16 PM   
Bradley62


Posts: 153
Joined: 6/29/2006
Status: offline 		5-600 meters IS NOT long range. Longe range considered 1000+ ?

(in reply to sargexmy)
Post #: 2
RE: what is GOING ON?? - 11/4/2008 10:59:02 PM   
e_barkmann


Posts: 1307
Joined: 4/18/2000
From: Adelaide, Australia
Status: offline 		'close combat'

bad blace for any tank to be.  German zoo has pretty much lost distance advantages in these kinds of firefights.

cheers


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Post #: 3
RE: what is GOING ON?? - 11/4/2008 11:11:43 PM   
sargexmy

 

Posts: 25
Joined: 4/12/2008
Status: offline 		i think 75mm/L40 can penetrate around 80mm of armor at 100m
If I remember, panther's front is 85 sloped at 55 degrees...turret is like 120mm rounded.

Unless the game models the shot-trap in early panther Gs, there is no way 75mm round from sherman can penetrate a panther frontally.

Another question, how does the reinforcement button work? can you only reinforce a battlegroup once (like in CC5) or can you do it multiple times. I noticed on the second day, several of my BGs had the "reinforcement" button available, but now it is the 3rd day, the button dissappeared.

(in reply to e_barkmann)
Post #: 4
RE: what is GOING ON?? - 11/4/2008 11:13:23 PM   
mooxe


Posts: 314
Joined: 10/25/2003
Status: offline 		Five or six hundred meters is long range for this game. The range effects of the real world should be scaled down for the close combat world. I will have to test out what sarge is saying. I have had some Shermans kill panthers at less than 100m. They were not front shots though.

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Post #: 5
RE: what is GOING ON?? - 11/4/2008 11:20:00 PM   
Peter Fisla


Posts: 2503
Joined: 10/5/2001
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Are the Shermans shooting with AP or APCR/HEAT, this is important. There is a very small chance that Sherman with 75mm gun can penetrate front plate of Panther...at 500m using regular AP...virtually zero.

< Message edited by Peter Fisla -- 11/4/2008 11:22:35 PM >

(in reply to mooxe)
Post #: 6
RE: what is GOING ON?? - 11/5/2008 12:02:59 AM   
Neil N

 

Posts: 740
Joined: 8/24/2004
Status: offline 		Fire direction is important. While the frontal armor of the panther stands up well to the 75mm. With side armor of 40mm at 40 degrees from vertical (equivalent of 52mm) and rear armor of 40mm at 30 degrees from vertical (equivalent of 46mm), either of those would be well within the capabilities of the M3 75mm gun.

M3 75mm/L40 firing the M72 AP round (most prevalent) can penetrate 76mm @ 30 degrees from vertical (equivalent of 88mm) at around 500m

< Message edited by Neil N -- 11/5/2008 12:07:39 AM >

(in reply to Peter Fisla)
Post #: 7
RE: what is GOING ON?? - 11/5/2008 1:31:37 AM   
Peter Fisla


Posts: 2503
Joined: 10/5/2001
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Neil N

Fire direction is important. While the frontal armor of the panther stands up well to the 75mm. With side armor of 40mm at 40 degrees from vertical (equivalent of 52mm) and rear armor of 40mm at 30 degrees from vertical (equivalent of 46mm), either of those would be well within the capabilities of the M3 75mm gun.

M3 75mm/L40 firing the M72 AP round (most prevalent) can penetrate 76mm @ 30 degrees from vertical (equivalent of 88mm) at around 500m


Hmmm...not according to my sources: Germany's Panther Tank - the quest for Combat Supremacy by Thomas Jentz

Page 127 lists data for Sherman 75 penetrations:

Sherman 75 M3 penetrates Panther:

(The penetration ranges were determined based on assumption that the panther stood at a side of angle 30 degrees to the incoming round)

Front Turret: 0m
Front Mantlet: 0m
Front Glacis: 0m
Front Nose: 0m

So from the front, pretty much point blank range only....

Side Turret: 1500m
Side Super: 400m
Side Hull: 2600m

Rear Turret: 1500m
Rear Hull: 1500m

This data unfortunately doesn't mention if it's AP/APCR/HEAT....but anyways does tells the story. Unless Sherman 75 has one in a million shot...there isn't much chance front penetration of a panther. I could be wrong but even numbers beyond 1000m for Sherman 75 doesn't make much sense since for the most part the Sherman 75 gun optics were designed engaging target up to 1000m (It could be 900m, I can't remember exactly). The side penetration from Sherman 75 is another story though...

If Sherman 75 would be able to do what you are saying, there would never have been any reason to have anything better than Sherman 75 in ETO...

< Message edited by Peter Fisla -- 11/5/2008 1:37:08 AM >

(in reply to Neil N)
Post #: 8
RE: what is GOING ON?? - 11/5/2008 1:57:51 AM   
Tejszd

 

Posts: 3437
Joined: 11/17/2007
Status: offline
quote:

(The penetration ranges were determined based on assumption that the panther stood at a side of angle 30 degrees to the incoming round)


That angle will increase both the front and side armour. It should not be used.

Here is a good site for gun and armour penetration.

http://www.freeweb.hu/gva/weapons/usa_guns5.html

The 75mm L31 at 457m can go through 60mm at 30 degrees which equals 69mm
The 75mm L40 at 457m can go through 76mm at 30 degrees which equals 88mm

The ranges at which engagements happen in CC minimize the differences between guns and armour thickness.

< Message edited by Tejszd -- 11/5/2008 2:21:41 AM >

(in reply to Peter Fisla)
Post #: 9
RE: what is GOING ON?? - 11/5/2008 4:15:37 AM   
Neil N

 

Posts: 740
Joined: 8/24/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Peter Fisla

quote:

ORIGINAL: Neil N

Fire direction is important. While the frontal armor of the panther stands up well to the 75mm. With side armor of 40mm at 40 degrees from vertical (equivalent of 52mm) and rear armor of 40mm at 30 degrees from vertical (equivalent of 46mm), either of those would be well within the capabilities of the M3 75mm gun.

M3 75mm/L40 firing the M72 AP round (most prevalent) can penetrate 76mm @ 30 degrees from vertical (equivalent of 88mm) at around 500m


Hmmm...not according to my sources: Germany's Panther Tank - the quest for Combat Supremacy by Thomas Jentz

Page 127 lists data for Sherman 75 penetrations:

Sherman 75 M3 penetrates Panther:

(The penetration ranges were determined based on assumption that the panther stood at a side of angle 30 degrees to the incoming round)

Front Turret: 0m
Front Mantlet: 0m
Front Glacis: 0m
Front Nose: 0m

So from the front, pretty much point blank range only....

Side Turret: 1500m
Side Super: 400m
Side Hull: 2600m

Rear Turret: 1500m
Rear Hull: 1500m

This data unfortunately doesn't mention if it's AP/APCR/HEAT....but anyways does tells the story. Unless Sherman 75 has one in a million shot...there isn't much chance front penetration of a panther. I could be wrong but even numbers beyond 1000m for Sherman 75 doesn't make much sense since for the most part the Sherman 75 gun optics were designed engaging target up to 1000m (It could be 900m, I can't remember exactly). The side penetration from Sherman 75 is another story though...

If Sherman 75 would be able to do what you are saying, there would never have been any reason to have anything better than Sherman 75 in ETO...


Hmmm...I don't think you are reading my information correctly, beacuse the information that you listed seems to support exactly what I was saying...side and rear, you've got a shot....front, better to be lucky than good.

M3 75mm gun did not employ HEAT rounds. Two types or rounds were available during WWII...M72 AP and M61 APCBC (which had slightly lower penetration values)

(in reply to Peter Fisla)
Post #: 10
RE: what is GOING ON?? - 11/5/2008 8:40:09 AM   
sargexmy

 

Posts: 25
Joined: 4/12/2008
Status: offline 		well im now asking, does the game take elevation into consideration?

maybe the sherman was hitting my panther from a slight elevation advantage, which means the shell is hitting the thin top armor.
and shot trap?

what about my panther not able to kill the sherman in 4 shots?

I played another game where my Hetzer TD is taking out sherman 76mm at 300m+ in two shots.

(in reply to Neil N)
Post #: 11
RE: what is GOING ON?? - 11/5/2008 8:46:30 AM   
Andrew Williams


Posts: 6116
Joined: 1/8/2001
From: Australia
Status: offline 		Sounds like a roll of the dice piece of luck

The Panther gun is more powerful than the Hetzers.

The game does take height into account and the upper hulls are thin.



(in reply to sargexmy)
Post #: 12
RE: what is GOING ON?? - 11/5/2008 9:13:16 PM   
PDiFolco

 

Posts: 1200
Joined: 10/11/2004
Status: offline 		Observed the same curious thing, 75mm Sherms killing Panthers as if they were Lynxes - from front facing, that's just wrong.
How is the penetration/armor data modeled ingame ? Is it possible to fix it ?

(in reply to Andrew Williams)
Post #: 13
RE: what is GOING ON?? - 11/6/2008 2:41:32 AM   
Andrew Williams


Posts: 6116
Joined: 1/8/2001
From: Australia
Status: offline 		I've run a series of tests and this is typical of the results.

Sherman v Panther

(in reply to PDiFolco)
Post #: 14
RE: what is GOING ON?? - 11/6/2008 8:20:30 AM   
Marc von Martial


Posts: 10875
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Bonn, Germany
Status: offline 		When facing such "wrong" results always take into account that the engine takes height into account. Check if the Shermans are positioned on elevated ground. This was always something that people forgot also back with classic CC4.

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Post #: 15
RE: what is GOING ON?? - 11/6/2008 8:40:39 AM   
Stwa


Posts: 484
Joined: 8/12/2005
Status: offline 		Wow!

It didn't even knock the paint off em...

(in reply to Marc von Martial)
Post #: 16
RE: what is GOING ON?? - 11/6/2008 4:24:39 PM   
Tomus

 

Posts: 234
Joined: 9/22/2003
From: UK
Status: offline 		If a 75MM Sherman kept shooting at Panther eventually the armour would wear down is that right? Or would the Panther just sit there invulnerable forever?

(in reply to Stwa)
Post #: 17
RE: what is GOING ON?? - 11/6/2008 5:34:26 PM   
AT_Salky

 

Posts: 4
Joined: 10/31/2008
Status: offline 		Hi there

There is "bad data" (or what you whant to call it) in WaR that have caused this Sherman 75mm killing of Panthers in the front.
In the data weapon file the 75mm sherman gun has a penetrating of 141mm at 100 meters, and 123 mm at 300 meters, ofcose the Shermans 75mm gun dont have this awesome penetrating power in real life, but in WaR it has, thus can Sherman may kill the Panthers even in front.
The Panther hull has (correctly pointed out by Schrecky) 3 different thickness of armoure depending on what relative hight the duell take place from, the thickness set for Panther front hull in WaR is : 291mm, 184mm, 135mm, that means that a slight or rather mimimal (-) chance to penetrate the hull. The panthers turret is the weak point, its front armourer is: 122mm, 113mm, 110mm, the chance of hit the turret compared to the hull is 30% (29.68%) so, basically every 3 rd shot the Sherman has the a good chance to kill or damage the panther (in WaR). In reality that chance would be close to null.  

So that was a long answer to the thread question "what is GOING ON??"

Unfortunately, im sorry to say but, there is a whole lot of such data “errors” in the data files, but still WaR is extremely much better then CCMT data for example.. So, its an improvement in relative terms.  
 
Anyway thanx to the developing crew, cant wait to get the H2H connection to work, (thanx again Schreck for trying). Vehicles and maps look grate.
 
Stalk



< Message edited by AT_Salky -- 11/6/2008 5:53:59 PM >

(in reply to Tomus)
Post #: 18
RE: what is GOING ON?? - 11/6/2008 6:12:45 PM   
Neil N

 

Posts: 740
Joined: 8/24/2004
Status: offline 		Yes, not sure what went wrong with the calculators when armor and penetration was being calculated, but rest assured that tank armor values and weapon penetration values are being corrected for the next patch

(in reply to AT_Salky)
Post #: 19
RE: what is GOING ON?? - 11/6/2008 6:24:32 PM   
Peter Fisla


Posts: 2503
Joined: 10/5/2001
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Neil N

Yes, not sure what went wrong with the calculators when armor and penetration was being calculated, but rest assured that tank armor values and weapon penetration values are being corrected for the next patch


Well, that's a great news Neil...thanks for the update

(in reply to Neil N)
Post #: 20
RE: what is GOING ON?? - 11/6/2008 6:47:15 PM   
Andrew Williams


Posts: 6116
Joined: 1/8/2001
From: Australia
Status: offline 		Panther Turret side armor is thicker than turret frontal armor... corrections are being made and the data is being doble checked through out.


Still, my Panthers are ruling the battlefield, I just need more of them  :)


(in reply to Peter Fisla)
Post #: 21
RE: what is GOING ON?? - 11/6/2008 7:07:04 PM   
AT_Salky

 

Posts: 4
Joined: 10/31/2008
Status: offline 		Haha, i missspelled my name, how cool...  

Well, anyway, there is nothing wrong with turret armoure, Schreck dont change it. Its the Shermans 75mm that the bugger in this one.

Yep than for looking into things.
(darn i would lobve a H2H game)

Thanx again.

(in reply to Andrew Williams)
Post #: 22
RE: what is GOING ON?? - 11/6/2008 7:34:24 PM   
Neil N

 

Posts: 740
Joined: 8/24/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AT_Salky

Haha, i missspelled my name, how cool...  

Well, anyway, there is nothing wrong with turret armoure, Schreck dont change it. Its the Shermans 75mm that the bugger in this one.

Yep than for looking into things.
(darn i would lobve a H2H game)

Thanx again.


Actually, checking the current Panther armor data...both hull and turret...there were some pretty big innacuracies in the values that were entered.

(in reply to AT_Salky)
Post #: 23
RE: what is GOING ON?? - 11/6/2008 8:08:30 PM   
AT_Salky

 

Posts: 4
Joined: 10/31/2008
Status: offline 		My answer was in regard to:
Qoute "Panther Turret side armor is thicker than turret frontal armor... "

You see, Only the Front side has such value that is higher then the actual front, the side in it self has not, So, that "front side" shall not be shanged so it has lower values than the pure front. That was what I talked about...

And ofcose, as u say, Qoute "there were some pretty big innacuracies in the values that were entered. " I would really agree on that statement, and its as I said that goes for many of the data entrys in current WaR version.

Make me wonder, why this was not spotted by the testers of WaR? It was first thing I saw playing it. And how come it was relised with as u said,  "pretty big innacuracies in the values" in first place...

Anyway... Hope you now understood what i meant?

Who made the vehicles grapix? They are really cool.
Again, cool work men.

< Message edited by AT_Salky -- 11/6/2008 8:09:07 PM >

(in reply to Neil N)
Post #: 24
RE: what is GOING ON?? - 11/6/2008 8:41:25 PM   
CaptRio

 

Posts: 77
Joined: 10/26/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Neil N

Yes, not sure what went wrong with the calculators when armor and penetration was being calculated, but rest assured that tank armor values and weapon penetration values are being corrected for the next patch


That's very nice to know...

But im playing the 25 days GC as germans, do you guys already know when we should be getting that patch? Cause with such error Im considering to wait for its release before getting back to my campaign.

(in reply to Neil N)
Post #: 25
RE: what is GOING ON?? - 11/6/2008 9:22:06 PM   
PDiFolco

 

Posts: 1200
Joined: 10/11/2004
Status: offline 		Haha, all hail those grognards that spot bad penetration/armor data after 2 hits!
But I thought German tanks may have been voluntarily nerfed, to give some chances to the US armor, as in the game you can't field 5 Sherms for every KT , with the 15 units max ...

btw how do you do guys to "check the values" in the data files ? I tried to do that too, but it's a mess of numbers, no header, no doc ...

(in reply to CaptRio)
Post #: 26
RE: what is GOING ON?? - 11/6/2008 10:06:53 PM   
Neil N

 

Posts: 740
Joined: 8/24/2004
Status: offline 		Andrew posted a link to the data workbook last week.  The version available is 4503DR, so I think this may even have some of the data changes in it.

WaR Downloads

< Message edited by Neil N -- 11/6/2008 10:07:42 PM >

(in reply to PDiFolco)
Post #: 27
RE: what is GOING ON?? - 11/6/2008 11:09:49 PM   
Peter Fisla


Posts: 2503
Joined: 10/5/2001
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CaptRio


quote:

ORIGINAL: Neil N

Yes, not sure what went wrong with the calculators when armor and penetration was being calculated, but rest assured that tank armor values and weapon penetration values are being corrected for the next patch


That's very nice to know...

But im playing the 25 days GC as germans, do you guys already know when we should be getting that patch? Cause with such error Im considering to wait for its release before getting back to my campaign.


Let's give the developers all the time they need to go through the whole tables for all vehicles...no software is perfect...however we have a great support here for this game so no worries, it will get done.

(in reply to CaptRio)
Post #: 28
RE: what is GOING ON?? - 11/6/2008 11:38:33 PM   
squadleader_id


Posts: 302
Joined: 10/29/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CaptRio


quote:

ORIGINAL: Neil N

Yes, not sure what went wrong with the calculators when armor and penetration was being calculated, but rest assured that tank armor values and weapon penetration values are being corrected for the next patch


That's very nice to know...

But im playing the 25 days GC as germans, do you guys already know when we should be getting that patch? Cause with such error Im considering to wait for its release before getting back to my campaign.


A patch with just data changes won't mess up your GC saved games...so just go ahead with your GC.
And for the grognards...good job spotting the weapons/armor data inaccuracies, guys!
I hope some of the 'cosmetic' glitches I posted at CCS will be considered for fixing in the patch.

(in reply to CaptRio)
Post #: 29
RE: what is GOING ON?? - 11/8/2008 7:16:08 AM   
sargexmy

 

Posts: 25
Joined: 4/12/2008
Status: offline 		nice video

did you notice those panthers got their guns damaged so quickly?

Same thing happened to me when my panthers were attacking;

This 57mm AT gun damaged the gun for the first panther in the second shot
I tried to get another panther to get the gun, but it missed.  Then 57mm fired and damaged that panther's gun!
(these panthers were facing the 57mm AT gun frontally)

I had to get a third panther to kill the at gun from the flank.

but yeah wonder if panthers in real life got their guns damaged so quickly?!

(in reply to squadleader_id)
Post #: 30
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