Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: abj9562

I prefer to stick to RAW unless there is a justifiable programming reason or Harry makes a change.

Yes. But RAW is somewhat vague about this.

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: abj9562

I prefer to stick to RAW unless there is a justifiable programming reason or Harry makes a change.

Yes. But RAW is somewhat vague about this.

IMO the only place where RAW is vague is when to commit the Engineer and Snow abilities. It is clear about the HQ support resolution and it is clear about selecting blitz/assault before fractional resolution. AFAICS, Orm's suggestion is identical to mine.

The sequence I gave in post #1461 is a direct quote from RAW.

quote:

ORIGINAL: doctormm

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: abj9562

I prefer to stick to RAW unless there is a justifiable programming reason or Harry makes a change.

Yes. But RAW is somewhat vague about this.

IMO the only place where RAW is vague is when to commit the Engineer and Snow abilities. It is clear about the HQ support resolution and it is clear about selecting blitz/assault before fractional resolution. AFAICS, Orm's suggestion is identical to mine.

The sequence I gave in post #1461 is a direct quote from RAW.

Couple of things that haven't been mentioned yet -
There needs to be an opportunity for emergency HQ supply immediately before rolling the dice.
When do you announce which units are being doubled by O chits?

I also find it somewhat irksome that the snow bonus is optional -
Take off your boots so you won't suffer as many casualties!
Similarly the ongoing debate about using the blitz mods. I haven't had much time to really dig into those debates though - that may change now that I've been laid off.

It's late. I'll give a more thorough consideration tomorrow.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: doctormm




Couple of things that haven't been mentioned yet -
There needs to be an opportunity for emergency HQ supply immediately before rolling the dice.
When do you announce which units are being doubled by O chits?

I also find it somewhat irksome that the snow bonus is optional -
Take off your boots so you won't suffer as many casualties!
Similarly the ongoing debate about using the blitz mods. I haven't had much time to really dig into those debates though - that may change now that I've been laid off.

It's late. I'll give a more thorough consideration tomorrow.

Both Offensive chit doubling and Emergency HQ supply are available from the unit pop up menu - that is, whenever the players want to invoke it.

The former would be by the phasing player only and should be done during land combat declaration.

During the land combat phase, the latter is primarily used by the non-phasing player. There is a subphase specifically for that in the MWIF sequence of play (since most of the time the non-phasing player is not the player moving units).
==
As for the use of snow units/bonus being optional, it has to do with which units are sent into battle first/last. To use a historical reference, if you hold the Old Guard out of every battle, it never takes losses.

quote:

ORIGINAL: doctormm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: doctormm




Couple of things that haven't been mentioned yet -
There needs to be an opportunity for emergency HQ supply immediately before rolling the dice.
When do you announce which units are being doubled by O chits?

I also find it somewhat irksome that the snow bonus is optional -
Take off your boots so you won't suffer as many casualties!
Similarly the ongoing debate about using the blitz mods. I haven't had much time to really dig into those debates though - that may change now that I've been laid off.

It's late. I'll give a more thorough consideration tomorrow.

Both Offensive chit doubling and Emergency HQ supply are available from the unit pop up menu - that is, whenever the players want to invoke it.

The former would be by the phasing player only and should be done during land combat declaration.

During the land combat phase, the latter is primarily used by the non-phasing player. There is a subphase specifically for that in the MWIF sequence of play (since most of the time the non-phasing player is not the player moving units).
==
As for the use of snow units/bonus being optional, it has to do with which units are sent into battle first/last. To use a historical reference, if you hold the Old Guard out of every battle, it never takes losses.

The Old Guard was rarely committed to combat. During the Russian campaign they were essentially little more than a drag on Napoleon's logistics and quite famously and probably fatal to his campaign, never were committed at Borodino.

Fractional odds
Several of your screen shots show a sequence error in them - the fractional odds roll is, by RAW, atomic with the combat resolution roll.

Ochit doubling
What is the MWiF definition of "final odds calculation"? That is, by RAW, when the attacker gets to do his doubling for Ochits - not at the time of declaration of combats.

I would have the end of the combat resolution sequence be:

Defender has last chance to do Emergency HQ supply
Attacker decides if any units will be doubled by Ochit
Alea iacta est (the die is cast).
Apply the results

ENG Modifier
The rules are quite clear that there is no choice involved. They provide a benefit. Period.
That being said, if there is a requirement to add that option, it absolutely should be part of the combat declaration (step 1 of the sequence in 11.16, done as the player allocates units).

Winterized/blitz modifiers
First of all, a huge qualifier - there is nothing in the rules that indicate that snow and blitz mods are optional.
Have I made my opinion on this clear enough?

The DEFENDER should choose first, not the attacker. If you look at the sequence in 11.16, it is always defender first.

Are we looking for simplicity of use/fewer steps, or what would be most true to RAW?
If the latter, then the decisions for all of these should be made during step 1 of the sequence in 11.16. That's where the defender chooses whether to use the notional, so it seems sensible to do this there.

That gives you:
1. declare all attacks, (the defender then announces whether any notional units are to be ignored);
attacker commits his units, including committing ENG to their role
defender declares whether he will be applying any optional modifiers, and whether he is declining the notional
attacker decides whether he will be applying any optional modifiers
This is done globally before moving on to step 2 (DSB).

Otherwise, if you're going to include the snow/blitz choice in step 8, then it still should be defender first. The decision on ENG should still remain as part of the declaration in step 1.

Overcommitment of shore bombardment and ground support
Now, one thing that's been debated and I'm not sure if it's been settled - what happens to over-commitment of shore bombardment and ground support, when emergency support and doubling are in play?
Do you "remember" that you've got extra points of ground support available should you choose to double the unit?

Land Movement - RAC 11.11.
Air Transport -  RAC 11.12.
Unload Land Units - RAC 11.13.
Invasion - RAC 11.14.
Paradrop - RAC 11.15.
Land Combat Declaration - RAC 11.16.1.
	Attackers doubled (within range of offensive HQ) - RAC 16.3.
Ignore Notional - RAC 11.14.
Emergency HQ Supply (prompt/reminder for defender) - RAC 2.4.3.
Shore Bombardment D - RAC 11.16.2.
Shore Bombardment A - RAC 11.16.2.
HQ Support D (announced) - RAC 11.16.3.
HQ Support A (announced) - RAC 11.16.3.
Ground Support - RAC 11.16.4.
	Roll for HQ Support - RAC 11.16.3.
Land Combat Resolution (one combat at a time) - RAC 11.16.5 & 11.16.6.
	Land Combat Selection - RAC 11.16.5.
	Def Snow Units - RAC 8.2.7.
	Att Snow Units - RAC 8.2.7.
	Choose Combat Type - RAC 11.16.5 & 11.16.6.
	Land Combat Resolution (roll dice, including fractional odds) - RAC 11.16.5 & 11.16.6.
	Convert Shattered - RAC 11.16.5.
	Assign Losses - RAC 11.16.5.
	Hex Control (overruns from invasions and paradrops) - RAC 11.11.6.
	Retreats - RAC 11.16.5.
	Advance After Combat - RAC 11.16.5.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


Thanks. I am going to make another pass at explaining how MWIF will handle all this based on the various feedback I have been getting.
==
For now, notice that the use of the snow unit bonus is a decision that the player gets to make (RAC 8.2.7: "you may lessen the odds ... If you use this power ...").

EDIT: I think you are right about the engineer bonus not being a voluntary decision. If an engineer is in a combat but doesn't provide any particular bonus, then it does not have to take the first loss. However, if an engineer is present in an attack and it can provide a bonus, then it does priovide the bonus, and it will have to take the first loss. The players get to choose whether the engineer attacks or not - and that's all.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Here goes, ....
===========
MWIF Sequence of Play for resolving land combat
(as of November 20, 2008)

Land Movement - RAC 11.11.
Air Transport -  RAC 11.12.
Unload Land Units - RAC 11.13.
Invasion - RAC 11.14.
Paradrop - RAC 11.15.
Land Combat Declaration - RAC 11.16.1.
	Attackers doubled (within range of offensive HQ) - RAC 16.3.
Ignore Notional - RAC 11.14.
Emergency HQ Supply (prompt/reminder for defender) - RAC 2.4.3.
Shore Bombardment D - RAC 11.16.2.
Shore Bombardment A - RAC 11.16.2.
HQ Support D (announced) - RAC 11.16.3.
HQ Support A (announced) - RAC 11.16.3.
Ground Support - RAC 11.16.4.
	Roll for HQ Support - RAC 11.16.3.
Land Combat Resolution (one combat at a time) - RAC 11.16.5 & 11.16.6.
	Land Combat Selection - RAC 11.16.5.
	Def Snow Units - RAC 8.2.7.
	Att Snow Units - RAC 8.2.7.
	Choose Combat Type - RAC 11.16.5 & 11.16.6.
	Land Combat Resolution (roll dice, including fractional odds) - RAC 11.16.5 & 11.16.6.
	Convert Shattered - RAC 11.16.5.
	Assign Losses - RAC 11.16.5.
	Hex Control (overruns from invasions and paradrops) - RAC 11.11.6.
	Retreats - RAC 11.16.5.
	Advance After Combat - RAC 11.16.5.

============
Comments:
1. If the player wants to double his attacking units for a land combat (permitted if the unit is within range of an HQ benefitting from an Offensive chit), he uses the unit popup menu during the land combat declaration phase. The purpose behind this is so the total attack strength is known for calculating supplemental shore bombardment and ground strike factors.

2. Engineer bonuses are automatically applied. Engineers only take the first loss is their bonus capabilities have been used in the attack. The attacker’s decision is solely whether an engineer unit attacks or not.

3. The use of snow bonuses is voluntary. The defender decides first, in keeping with the pattern of defenders deciding first (e.g., for shore bombardment and HQ support).

4. The effect of fractional odds immediately precedes the combat die roll itself. This is the only factor affecting the CRT column (die roll modifier) that will still be uncertain when the decision of Assault/Blitz is made.

5. Any overruns caused by successful invasions and/or paradrops are resolved prior to land units being retreated. That is, if there are naval and air units in the attacked hex and all the land units have been eliminated (destroyed/shattered/must retreat) then the invading infantry and paratroops land in the hex, control of the hex changes, and the naval and air units must rebase, PRIOR to retreating (plotting the retreat path of) the land units. Note that this only applies if the invading/paradropping unit survives. Otherwise, the overrun will not take place until the advance after combat subphase (assuming a land unit advances into the attacked hex).

quote:

ORIGINAL: doctormm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


Thanks. I am going to make another pass at explaining how MWIF will handle all this based on the various feedback I have been getting.
==
For now, notice that the use of the snow unit bonus is a decision that the player gets to make (RAC 8.2.7: "you may lessen the odds ... If you use this power ...").

EDIT: I think you are right about the engineer bonus not being a voluntary decision. If an engineer is in a combat but doesn't provide any particular bonus, then it does not have to take the first loss. However, if an engineer is present in an attack and it can provide a bonus, then it does priovide the bonus, and it will have to take the first loss. The players get to choose whether the engineer attacks or not - and that's all.

On what is the RAC change to RAW based? The 2d10 that I have has none of that text.

Also, if you allow players to decline the winter bonus, you'll need to clarify 3(c) of the 2d10 notes. That is, if I have two units attacking and one is Winterized, but I refuse the winterized bonus, am I still exempt from the bad weather extra loss?

quote:

ORIGINAL: doctormm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Here goes, ....
===========
MWIF Sequence of Play for resolving land combat
(as of November 20, 2008)

Land Movement - RAC 11.11.
Air Transport -  RAC 11.12.
Unload Land Units - RAC 11.13.
Invasion - RAC 11.14.
Paradrop - RAC 11.15.
Land Combat Declaration - RAC 11.16.1.
	Attackers doubled (within range of offensive HQ) - RAC 16.3.
Ignore Notional - RAC 11.14.
Emergency HQ Supply (prompt/reminder for defender) - RAC 2.4.3.
Shore Bombardment D - RAC 11.16.2.
Shore Bombardment A - RAC 11.16.2.
HQ Support D (announced) - RAC 11.16.3.
HQ Support A (announced) - RAC 11.16.3.
Ground Support - RAC 11.16.4.
	Roll for HQ Support - RAC 11.16.3.
Land Combat Resolution (one combat at a time) - RAC 11.16.5 & 11.16.6.
	Land Combat Selection - RAC 11.16.5.
	Def Snow Units - RAC 8.2.7.
	Att Snow Units - RAC 8.2.7.
	Choose Combat Type - RAC 11.16.5 & 11.16.6.
	Land Combat Resolution (roll dice, including fractional odds) - RAC 11.16.5 & 11.16.6.
	Convert Shattered - RAC 11.16.5.
	Assign Losses - RAC 11.16.5.
	Hex Control (overruns from invasions and paradrops) - RAC 11.11.6.
	Retreats - RAC 11.16.5.
	Advance After Combat - RAC 11.16.5.

============
Comments:
1. If the player wants to double his attacking units for a land combat (permitted if the unit is within range of an HQ benefitting from an Offensive chit), he uses the unit popup menu during the land combat declaration phase. The purpose behind this is so the total attack strength is known for calculating supplemental shore bombardment and ground strike factors.

2. Engineer bonuses are automatically applied. Engineers only take the first loss is their bonus capabilities have been used in the attack. The attacker’s decision is solely whether an engineer unit attacks or not.

3. The use of snow bonuses is voluntary. The defender decides first, in keeping with the pattern of defenders deciding first (e.g., for shore bombardment and HQ support).

4. The effect of fractional odds immediately precedes the combat die roll itself. This is the only factor affecting the CRT column (die roll modifier) that will still be uncertain when the decision of Assault/Blitz is made.

5. Any overruns caused by successful invasions and/or paradrops are resolved prior to land units being retreated. That is, if there are naval and air units in the attacked hex and all the land units have been eliminated (destroyed/shattered/must retreat) then the invading infantry and paratroops land in the hex, control of the hex changes, and the naval and air units must rebase, PRIOR to retreating (plotting the retreat path of) the land units. Note that this only applies if the invading/paradropping unit survives. Otherwise, the overrun will not take place until the advance after combat subphase (assuming a land unit advances into the attacked hex).

OK, I see that you've gone with "keep it simple" on the OChit doubling. You've also left the emergency HQ quite early. Presumably that's to make things easier as well. But it does add a wrinkle if the HQ providing the emergency supply is killed or flipped prior to resolving the combat of the unit(s) receiving the emergency supply. I still think you should allow emergency supply right before the actual die roll.

quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian


I think the phrasing "this impulse" means that if you designated an HQ to do it before that HQ participated in combat, the unit receiving the supply still would regardless of the fate of the HQ.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian


I think the phrasing "this impulse" means that if you designated an HQ to do it before that HQ participated in combat, the unit receiving the supply still would regardless of the fate of the HQ.

2.4.3 Out of supply
Option 13: (emergency HQ supply) Non-HQ units that are out of
supply can operate as if they were in supply this impulse if they can
trace a basic supply path to a face-up HQ they may co-operate with.
You can only do this with as many units as the HQ’s reorganisation
value.
You must announce the HQ providing emergency supply before any
unit can gain this benefi t. Turn the HQ face-down after the land
combat step.
An HQ may not provide emergency HQ supply during the impulse(s)
it is surprised.

2.4.1 When to check supply
You need to check the supply status of a unit before it moves, flies, sails
or reorganises units.
You also need to check the supply status of land units immediately
before you resolve an overrun (both sides), during combat declaration
(attacking units) and at the moment of combat (both sides).

I cut out the two rules regarding emergency supply and land combat. I bolded the parts that I think affect this. As I read it the unit reciving emergency supply must be able to trace a primary supply line to the HQ at the moment of combat to be in supply.

I add a two answer closely related to this from latest Q&A from Harry Rowland.

Q) When using Emergency HQ supply, must the face up HQ the unit needs to trace to be the same as HQ providing the emergency supply?
A) Yes. Date 05/07/2007
Q) When using Emergency HQ supply, must the basic supply path of four hexes be directly to the HQ providing emergency HQ supply i.e. it cannot be prolonged through a capital or another HQ?
A) Must trace directly. Date 05/07/2007

-Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

I hate to mention this, but with the 1d10 system there doesn't seem to be any bonus or loss penalty for the defender's winterized units. So the defender winterized choice in 1d10 may not be too important and could be skipped?

RE: Emergency HQ Supply, I like the thought of allowing it on time to fly in air support, although I've never seen that happen. With fractional odds, defensive ground support is much more rare. Anyway, rather than injecting an E-HQ-Sup decision step into the process at this point or that point, would it be simpler to just have an EHQ button on the page one could click at any time until the dice are rolled? It would then be up to a player on when to click the button or use the pop-up menu. How does this work during, say, movement ... do you have to dole out the Emergency supply before all units move, affecting their organization status, or can you designate it after you've moved half of your units already? Sure, it's kind of a sneaky trick to declare the supply after attacker commitments, but declaring it that late is perfectly legal. But it is an extremely rare attacking player that will ever ask the defender if he wants to commit E-HQ Supply at any point. It's up to the player to remember to do it.

So given the decision sequence above, without an explicit EHQsup step the defender would have to do it during one of his decision points. But what happens when the defender has no air assets in range, no ships off shore, no winterized units, no HQ adjacent, and no possibility of choosing combat table ... but an HQ in range for supply ... are these points all skipped when there is no possible decision for the defender to make? In that case, somewhere in there you need to pass a decision point over to the defender. Maybe if the defender has had no decision point in a given combat, an explicit step could come up for them at the end.

And thus thinking through all of it, I could see why you put the step in where you did.

I think the phrasing "this impulse" means that if you designated an HQ to do it before that HQ participated in combat, the unit receiving the supply still would regardless of the fate of the HQ.

quote:

ORIGINAL: doctormm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


Thanks. I am going to make another pass at explaining how MWIF will handle all this based on the various feedback I have been getting.
==
For now, notice that the use of the snow unit bonus is a decision that the player gets to make (RAC 8.2.7: "you may lessen the odds ... If you use this power ...").

EDIT: I think you are right about the engineer bonus not being a voluntary decision. If an engineer is in a combat but doesn't provide any particular bonus, then it does not have to take the first loss. However, if an engineer is present in an attack and it can provide a bonus, then it does priovide the bonus, and it will have to take the first loss. The players get to choose whether the engineer attacks or not - and that's all.

On what is the RAC change to RAW based? The 2d10 that I have has none of that text.

Also, if you allow players to decline the winter bonus, you'll need to clarify 3(c) of the 2d10 notes. That is, if I have two units attacking and one is Winterized, but I refuse the winterized bonus, am I still exempt from the bad weather extra loss?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian


I think the phrasing "this impulse" means that if you designated an HQ to do it before that HQ participated in combat, the unit receiving the supply still would regardless of the fate of the HQ.

2.4.3 Out of supply
Option 13: (emergency HQ supply) Non-HQ units that are out of
supply can operate as if they were in supply this impulse if they can
trace a basic supply path to a face-up HQ they may co-operate with.
You can only do this with as many units as the HQ’s reorganisation
value.
You must announce the HQ providing emergency supply before any
unit can gain this benefi t. Turn the HQ face-down after the land
combat step.
An HQ may not provide emergency HQ supply during the impulse(s)
it is surprised.

2.4.1 When to check supply
You need to check the supply status of a unit before it moves, flies, sails
or reorganises units.
You also need to check the supply status of land units immediately
before you resolve an overrun (both sides), during combat declaration
(attacking units) and at the moment of combat (both sides).

I cut out the two rules regarding emergency supply and land combat. I bolded the parts that I think affect this. As I read it the unit reciving emergency supply must be able to trace a primary supply line to the HQ at the moment of combat to be in supply.

I add a two answer closely related to this from latest Q&A from Harry Rowland.

Q) When using Emergency HQ supply, must the face up HQ the unit needs to trace to be the same as HQ providing the emergency supply?
A) Yes. Date 05/07/2007
Q) When using Emergency HQ supply, must the basic supply path of four hexes be directly to the HQ providing emergency HQ supply i.e. it cannot be prolonged through a capital or another HQ?
A) Must trace directly. Date 05/07/2007

-Orm

Yes, I understood all this.

The question remains though, does the unit receiving supply become supplied when the supply from the HQ is announced? Or does the unit need to maintain its relationship to the HQ throughout the rest of the impulse in order to remain in supply?

To use an analogy to hopefully emphasis the distinction I see, does the HQ send a battery to the unit so the unit can have light or does the HQ run a power line so the unit has light? If the former, what happens to the HQ after the battery arrives doesn't matter. If the later, then any disturbance puts the unit out of supply (again).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm
... You make a new supply check at the moment of combat and the unit that recived the emergency supply must then be in range from the providing HQ.
...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: doctormm




On what is the RAC change to RAW based? The 2d10 that I have has none of that text.

Also, if you allow players to decline the winter bonus, you'll need to clarify 3(c) of the 2d10 notes. That is, if I have two units attacking and one is Winterized, but I refuse the winterized bonus, am I still exempt from the bad weather extra loss?

What I quoted is straight from the RAW 7.0 PDF. I made no changes to this section for RAC.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: doctormm

OK, I see that you've gone with "keep it simple" on the OChit doubling. You've also left the emergency HQ quite early. Presumably that's to make things easier as well. But it does add a wrinkle if the HQ providing the emergency supply is killed or flipped prior to resolving the combat of the unit(s) receiving the emergency supply. I still think you should allow emergency supply right before the actual die roll.

I want to keep it where it is so the defending player can use it to put air units in supply for the ground support phase that follows.

I could add another check within the land combat resolution phase, though that isn't real pleasant to do. I hate to be asking the player this question for each land combat and always having him say no.

===
I hadn't thought about one of the land combats affecting the HQ providing emergency supply, such that a unit defending in a later land combat can no longer use the HQ for supply.

The rules are somewhat vague on this and it depends on where you place the emphasis within the rule as to what happens.

For instance, as indicated in the SOP given above, the defender says an HQ A is providing emergency supply to unit B. HQ A is out of supply, but organized, and unit B has a basic supply path to A. From MWIF's point of view, the HQ is functioning as a primary supply source for B for the duration of the impulse.

Now, if a land combat result causes A to: be destroyed, retreat out of range of B (A would also become disorganized), or simply become disorganized in place, the question becomes is B still in supply? One argument is that the supply has been sent at the time the defender announced B was a recipient. The other argument is that supply is determined at time of combat and A has lost its qualifications to be a primary supply source.

I am ambivalent about which of these interpretations to use. However, I am only going to code 1 of these 2 choices. Opinions?

quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

I hate to mention this, but with the 1d10 system there doesn't seem to be any bonus or loss penalty for the defender's winterized units. So the defender winterized choice in 1d10 may not be too important and could be skipped?

quote:

ORIGINAL: doctormm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: doctormm

OK, I see that you've gone with "keep it simple" on the OChit doubling. You've also left the emergency HQ quite early. Presumably that's to make things easier as well. But it does add a wrinkle if the HQ providing the emergency supply is killed or flipped prior to resolving the combat of the unit(s) receiving the emergency supply. I still think you should allow emergency supply right before the actual die roll.

I want to keep it where it is so the defending player can use it to put air units in supply for the ground support phase that follows.

I could add another check within the land combat resolution phase, though that isn't real pleasant to do. I hate to be asking the player this question for each land combat and always having him say no.

===
I hadn't thought about one of the land combats affecting the HQ providing emergency supply, such that a unit defending in a later land combat can no longer use the HQ for supply.

The rules are somewhat vague on this and it depends on where you place the emphasis within the rule as to what happens.

For instance, as indicated in the SOP given above, the defender says an HQ A is providing emergency supply to unit B. HQ A is out of supply, but organized, and unit B has a basic supply path to A. From MWIF's point of view, the HQ is functioning as a primary supply source for B for the duration of the impulse.

Now, if a land combat result causes A to: be destroyed, retreat out of range of B (A would also become disorganized), or simply become disorganized in place, the question becomes is B still in supply? One argument is that the supply has been sent at the time the defender announced B was a recipient. The other argument is that supply is determined at time of combat and A has lost its qualifications to be a primary supply source.

I am ambivalent about which of these interpretations to use. However, I am only going to code 1 of these 2 choices. Opinions?

I'd go with the latter - supply is determined at the moment of combat. The bit about being able to be in supply this impulse is an upper bound (i.e., not the rest of the turn, or whatever).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: doctormm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Here goes, ....
===========
MWIF Sequence of Play for resolving land combat
(as of November 20, 2008)

Land Movement - RAC 11.11.
Air Transport -  RAC 11.12.
Unload Land Units - RAC 11.13.
Invasion - RAC 11.14.
Paradrop - RAC 11.15.
Land Combat Declaration - RAC 11.16.1.
	Attackers doubled (within range of offensive HQ) - RAC 16.3.
Ignore Notional - RAC 11.14.
Emergency HQ Supply (prompt/reminder for defender) - RAC 2.4.3.
Shore Bombardment D - RAC 11.16.2.
Shore Bombardment A - RAC 11.16.2.
HQ Support D (announced) - RAC 11.16.3.
HQ Support A (announced) - RAC 11.16.3.
Ground Support - RAC 11.16.4.
	Roll for HQ Support - RAC 11.16.3.
Land Combat Resolution (one combat at a time) - RAC 11.16.5 & 11.16.6.
	Land Combat Selection - RAC 11.16.5.
	Def Snow Units - RAC 8.2.7.
	Att Snow Units - RAC 8.2.7.
	Choose Combat Type - RAC 11.16.5 & 11.16.6.
	Land Combat Resolution (roll dice, including fractional odds) - RAC 11.16.5 & 11.16.6.
	Convert Shattered - RAC 11.16.5.
	Assign Losses - RAC 11.16.5.
	Hex Control (overruns from invasions and paradrops) - RAC 11.11.6.
	Retreats - RAC 11.16.5.
	Advance After Combat - RAC 11.16.5.

============
Comments:
1. If the player wants to double his attacking units for a land combat (permitted if the unit is within range of an HQ benefitting from an Offensive chit), he uses the unit popup menu during the land combat declaration phase. The purpose behind this is so the total attack strength is known for calculating supplemental shore bombardment and ground strike factors.

2. Engineer bonuses are automatically applied. Engineers only take the first loss is their bonus capabilities have been used in the attack. The attacker’s decision is solely whether an engineer unit attacks or not.

3. The use of snow bonuses is voluntary. The defender decides first, in keeping with the pattern of defenders deciding first (e.g., for shore bombardment and HQ support).

4. The effect of fractional odds immediately precedes the combat die roll itself. This is the only factor affecting the CRT column (die roll modifier) that will still be uncertain when the decision of Assault/Blitz is made.

5. Any overruns caused by successful invasions and/or paradrops are resolved prior to land units being retreated. That is, if there are naval and air units in the attacked hex and all the land units have been eliminated (destroyed/shattered/must retreat) then the invading infantry and paratroops land in the hex, control of the hex changes, and the naval and air units must rebase, PRIOR to retreating (plotting the retreat path of) the land units. Note that this only applies if the invading/paradropping unit survives. Otherwise, the overrun will not take place until the advance after combat subphase (assuming a land unit advances into the attacked hex).

OK, I see that you've gone with "keep it simple" on the OChit doubling. You've also left the emergency HQ quite early. Presumably that's to make things easier as well. But it does add a wrinkle if the HQ providing the emergency supply is killed or flipped prior to resolving the combat of the unit(s) receiving the emergency supply. I still think you should allow emergency supply right before the actual die roll.

I want to keep it where it is so the defending player can use it to put air units in supply for the ground support phase that follows.

I could add another check within the land combat resolution phase, though that isn't real pleasant to do. I hate to be asking the player this question for each land combat and always having him say no.

===
I hadn't thought about one of the land combats affecting the HQ providing emergency supply, such that a unit defending in a later land combat can no longer use the HQ for supply.

The rules are somewhat vague on this and it depends on where you place the emphasis within the rule as to what happens.

For instance, as indicated in the SOP given above, the defender says an HQ A is providing emergency supply to unit B. HQ A is out of supply, but organized, and unit B has a basic supply path to A. From MWIF's point of view, the HQ is functioning as a primary supply source for B for the duration of the impulse.

Now, if a land combat result causes A to: be destroyed, retreat out of range of B (A would also become disorganized), or simply become disorganized in place, the question becomes is B still in supply? One argument is that the supply has been sent at the time the defender announced B was a recipient. The other argument is that supply is determined at time of combat and A has lost its qualifications to be a primary supply source.

I am ambivalent about which of these interpretations to use. However, I am only going to code 1 of these 2 choices. Opinions?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Well, that is 3 votes for "supply is (re)determined at time of combat" being the predominant rule - which makes sense to me. I'll go with the latter interpretation then.

quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

I hate to mention this, but with the 1d10 system there doesn't seem to be any bonus or loss penalty for the defender's winterized units. So the defender winterized choice in 1d10 may not be too important and could be skipped?

RE: Emergency HQ Supply, I like the thought of allowing it on time to fly in air support, although I've never seen that happen. With fractional odds, defensive ground support is much more rare. Anyway, rather than injecting an E-HQ-Sup decision step into the process at this point or that point, would it be simpler to just have an EHQ button on the page one could click at any time until the dice are rolled? It would then be up to a player on when to click the button or use the pop-up menu. How does this work during, say, movement ... do you have to dole out the Emergency supply before all units move, affecting their organization status, or can you designate it after you've moved half of your units already? Sure, it's kind of a sneaky trick to declare the supply after attacker commitments, but declaring it that late is perfectly legal. But it is an extremely rare attacking player that will ever ask the defender if he wants to commit E-HQ Supply at any point. It's up to the player to remember to do it.

So given the decision sequence above, without an explicit EHQsup step the defender would have to do it during one of his decision points. But what happens when the defender has no air assets in range, no ships off shore, no winterized units, no HQ adjacent, and no possibility of choosing combat table ... but an HQ in range for supply ... are these points all skipped when there is no possible decision for the defender to make? In that case, somewhere in there you need to pass a decision point over to the defender. Maybe if the defender has had no decision point in a given combat, an explicit step could come up for them at the end.

And thus thinking through all of it, I could see why you put the step in where you did.

I think the phrasing "this impulse" means that if you designated an HQ to do it before that HQ participated in combat, the unit receiving the supply still would regardless of the fate of the HQ.

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

About doubling due to an OC - By RAW this happens "when final odds are calculated". And since you have to be able to apply more OGS than equal to the attacking base value - in case some gets shot down or aborted - then you can have more OGS in the attack then the normal limit and then double units appropriately and perhaps save a doubling for some other unit or for an overrun resulting from a Breakthrough. (Steve - is using OC doubling for overruns - both movement and breakthrough overruns - handled by the program?)

I have no idea about programming complexity for all this and perhaps some must need be changed in RAC to preserve the programmers (remaining ) sanity.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

About doubling due to an OC - By RAW this happens "when final odds are calculated". And since you have to be able to apply more OGS than equal to the attacking base value - in case some gets shot down or aborted - then you can have more OGS in the attack then the normal limit and then double units appropriately and perhaps save a doubling for some other unit or for an overrun resulting from a Breakthrough. (Steve - is using OC doubling for overruns - both movement and breakthrough overruns - handled by the program?)

I have no idea about programming complexity for all this and perhaps some must need be changed in RAC to preserve the programmers (remaining ) sanity.

I have trouble with the phrase "when final odds are calculated". Yeah, I know, it should be obvious. But then there is the die roll for fractional odds which may change the odds. It doesn't interfere with the OC doubling, but adds some confusion to the mix. And the roll for the fractional odds has been generally agreed to occur when the other die rolls on the CRT are made. If OC doubling can be applied after the fractional odds roll, another round of changes to the code I just changed would be needed.

quote:


Using excess shore bombardment and ground support with the expectation that you 'might' use the OC doubling later, strikes me as very strange.

quote:


As a player, I find the small gains achievable by subtle choices as to when these decisions are made to be counter-intuitive; and as a designer, not something that adds to the realism of the simulation.

quote:


I see nothing particularly wrong with the land combat sequence of play I have laid out above. Yes, the player has to decide about OC doubling 'early', before: the use of snow units by the defender, the choice of CRT, and the roll for fractional odds. From a designer's point of view, the OC doubling represents the commitment of large accumulations of materiel in an offensive land attack. There are many examples of this occurring during WWII, with perhaps one of the better known ones being the German build up and commitment of forces for the "Battle of the Bulge". Winterized units played a role there too. These commitments of extra units et al were not done on the spur of the moment, so the placement I currently have for when this decision is made seems approriate to me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

I'd say the Destruction of Army Group Center involved the use of a Soviet OC or two, but applied more on an opportunistic scale then on a totally pre-planned one.

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

About doubling due to an OC - By RAW this happens "when final odds are calculated". And since you have to be able to apply more OGS than equal to the attacking base value - in case some gets shot down or aborted - then you can have more OGS in the attack then the normal limit and then double units appropriately and perhaps save a doubling for some other unit or for an overrun resulting from a Breakthrough. (Steve - is using OC doubling for overruns - both movement and breakthrough overruns - handled by the program?)

I have no idea about programming complexity for all this and perhaps some must need be changed in RAC to preserve the programmers (remaining ) sanity.

I have trouble with the phrase "when final odds are calculated". Yeah, I know, it should be obvious. But then there is the die roll for fractional odds which may change the odds. It doesn't interfere with the OC doubling, but adds some confusion to the mix. And the roll for the fractional odds has been generally agreed to occur when the other die rolls on the CRT are made. If OC doubling can be applied after the fractional odds roll, another round of changes to the code I just changed would be needed.

As was pointed out, the extra die for fractionals is often rolled by players in the the same handfull as the combat dice. Final odds are the odds prior to rolling any dice for the combat and the doubling or not happens just prior to that in WiF. If MWiF is going to be different then it should be for a good reason. Mind you, we used to play it that way until we discovered the quote I mentioned and it won't make a huge difference. Personally I prefer it the way RAW reads, now that I've tried it both ways. Your arguments against fall in the eternal "gamer versus historical simulator" category and if gamer is left wing and simulator is right wing, then I'm a raving, foaming at the mouth, died in the wool, arch-commie.

quote:


Using excess shore bombardment and ground support with the expectation that you 'might' use the OC doubling later, strikes me as very strange.

Oh really? Does putting in extra OGS in anticipation of losing something in the air battle strike you as strange? "Let's see, I can only double myself. Gosh I sure hope nothing gets aborted and I'll say a little prayer that my opponent won't fire his AA." Likewise if I overkill on OSB and then choose not to double a unit or two after all, then who suffers? Of course I should realize that historically the Allies never, ever applied excess doses of shore bombardment, they always used just enough to double their ground factors after all. Silly me!

quote:


As a player, I find the small gains achievable by subtle choices as to when these decisions are made to be counter-intuitive; and as a designer, not something that adds to the realism of the simulation.

As a gamer, I'm compelled to make the best use of the forces at my disposal, adapt to changing situations and take advantage of every trick in the book to optimize my move in a superior fashion to that of my opponent. (I'm a little competitive when I game.) Oddly this prescription often means I can roll the dice less well than my opponent, but can still win.

quote:


I see nothing particularly wrong with the land combat sequence of play I have laid out above. Yes, the player has to decide about OC doubling 'early', before: the use of snow units by the defender, the choice of CRT, and the roll for fractional odds. From a designer's point of view, the OC doubling represents the commitment of large accumulations of materiel in an offensive land attack. There are many examples of this occurring during WWII, with perhaps one of the better known ones being the German build up and commitment of forces for the "Battle of the Bulge". Winterized units played a role there too. These commitments of extra units et al were not done on the spur of the moment, so the placement I currently have for when this decision is made seems approriate to me.

I'd say the Destruction of Army Group Center involved the use of a Soviet OC or two, but applied more on an opportunistic scale then on a totally pre-planned one.