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Formation problem - 11/21/2008 11:02:15 PM

COBLU

Posts: 17
Joined: 11/9/2008
Status: offline

Apols if this has been raised elsewhere but I can't find it so here goes.

When I set up a formation in game (NOT the scenario editor) the formation fails to map itself to what I have set, with some units being offset.

Each unit is in a single zone of the formation editor so it isn't that they are simply moving around. Nor is it that they haven't had time to take up new positions (it happens with units that have been running for over four days game time at a formation speed of 5 knots less than cruise speed). Nor is it related to a single scenario or battleset (happened in every scenario in every battleset that I've tested).

There is a slight anomaly in my formation editor in that I always get a 'ghost' unit zero at the center of the formation layout (not sure if this is intentional, just flagged as it isn't what I expected based on previous versions of the game).

Anyway, example screen shot of a formation editor screen prior to adjusting zone sizes attached here and the resultant actual formation layout that resulted in game (after plenty of time) in the next post.

Regards,

Guy

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RE: Formation problem - 11/21/2008 11:03:14 PM

COBLU

Posts: 17
Joined: 11/9/2008
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And, as mentioned, the actual resultant layout.

Guy

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Post #: 2

Problem - 11/22/2008 12:36:27 AM

hermanhum

Posts: 2209
Joined: 9/21/2005
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I believe that the phenomenon you are experiencing is the same as the ones previously reported here:

http://harpgamer.com/harpforum/index.php?showtopic=2427

http://harpgamer.com/harpforum/index.php?showtopic=2426

http://harpgamer.com/harpforum/index.php?showtopic=2428

http://harpgamer.com/harpforum/index.php?showtopic=2429

I've checked with the Lead Programmer and they have not yet been fixed.

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Post #: 3

RE: Problem - 11/22/2008 1:01:15 AM

COBLU

Posts: 17
Joined: 11/9/2008
Status: offline

Yup, looks like those alright

- thanks for flagging it from the other site, Herman.

Really causes havoc when trying to defend a high value unit given that the unit can randomly wander off ! Trying to defend the Stennis from sub attack when she decided to position herself 40 miles ahead of the main body was.....interesting.

Anyone on the coding side have any ideas about why this is happening or when it might be fixed as it can really screw up scenarios something chronic ?

Regards,

Guy

(in reply to hermanhum)

Post #: 4

Problem - 11/22/2008 1:08:14 AM

hermanhum

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Joined: 9/21/2005
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I agree. It causes utter havoc. The way I work around the problem is this:

I work under the assumption that every time I do a change or modification of my Formation Patrol zones, I assume that I must re-assign all of the them. This is a real PiTA, but about the only way I can get things to work, marginally.

Because of this limitation, I try to only use the Formation editor once per scenario. I set things up and (hopefully) just leave it alone. I just can't stand screwing around with all he various patrol zones over, and over, again. It makes the game less enjoyable for me, but is better than constantly messing around with the PZs.

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Post #: 5

RE: Problem - 11/22/2008 1:25:33 AM

COBLU

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Joined: 11/9/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hermanhum

I work under the assumption that every time I do a change or modification of my Formation Patrol zones, I assume that I must re-assign all of the them. This is a real PiTA, but about the only way I can get things to work, marginally.

Even if I reassign everything it still seems to move the vessels around anyway. Must admit that I don't think I tried changing the zone sizes first before assigning ships (I usually run with a close-in surface formation with widely spread air coverage so it isn't normally practical to set the zone sizes first as it makes the close-in zones too small to easily put things in) so I'll give that a go.

Appreciate the thoughts anyway Herman as potential/partial solutions are better than none.

Cheers,

Guy

(in reply to hermanhum)

Post #: 6

RE: Problem - 11/22/2008 4:13:38 PM

TonyE

Posts: 1551
Joined: 5/23/2006
From: MN, USA
Status: offline

Yup, moving each ship/plane into a neighbording slot and then back after changing the ring sizes is your best bet for now.

What I do is...
1. Change formation ring sizes
2. Move each unit out of the desired ring
3. Move each unit back into the desired ring

It isn't a perfect workaround but it gets me through.

_____________________________

Sincerely,
Tony Eischens
Harpoon (HC, HCE, HUCE, Classic) programmer
HarpGamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to COBLU)

Post #: 7

RE: Problem - 11/22/2008 7:11:45 PM

COBLU

Posts: 17
Joined: 11/9/2008
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Okay, I appreciate that there is a work around but it is far from great for such an important part of the game so it doesn't change the underlying question which is, is anyone working on a fix for this ?

Cheers,

Guy

(in reply to TonyE)

Post #: 8

RE: Problem - 11/22/2008 7:24:13 PM

noxious

Posts: 177
Joined: 6/13/2008
From: Montreal, Qc, Canuckistan
Status: offline

Tony E is the lead/only programmer on HCE.
He has many things on his plate, including old and not so old bugs.
I gather that his lack of a specific answer to your question means he's not actively working on this problem atm, but that doesn't mean he won't. Matter of fact, I'd say he'll get round to it at some point :)
You have to realize HCE is maintained by a team of volunteers (or 99.9% volunteers/0.01% salary 8p) and so they can't always act on bug reports right away, as you could surmise from this not being the first time the bug is reported.
Cheers !

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Be Kind. Everyone is fighting a hard battle.

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Post #: 9

Problem - 11/22/2008 8:14:38 PM

hermanhum

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quote:

ORIGINAL: noxious

HCE is maintained by a team of volunteers

Since when has that ever been an acceptable excuse?!

I say Hang'em all by their thumbs until we get HCE-MP!

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Post #: 10

RE: Problem - 11/22/2008 10:46:39 PM

CV32

Posts: 1046
Joined: 5/15/2006
From: The Rock, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: hermanhum
Since when has that ever been an acceptable excuse?! I say Hang'em all by their thumbs until we get HCE-MP!

You know where to find me if you are volunteering to attempt the thumb hanging.

_____________________________

Brad Leyte
HC3 development group member for HCE
Author of HCDB official database for HCE
Harpgamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to hermanhum)

Post #: 11

Problem - 11/23/2008 12:06:50 AM

hermanhum

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Joined: 9/21/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CV32

quote:

ORIGINAL: hermanhum
Since when has that ever been an acceptable excuse?! I say Hang'em all by their thumbs until we get HCE-MP!

You know where to find me if you are volunteering to attempt the thumb hanging.

Possibly staring down the barrel of your Moisin Nagant?

Okay, let me re-phrase that. Hang all (who are not in possession of long-barrelled firearms) by their thumbs...

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Post #: 12

RE: Problem - 11/23/2008 12:38:14 AM

COBLU

Posts: 17
Joined: 11/9/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: noxious

You have to realize HCE is maintained by a team of volunteers (or 99.9% volunteers/0.01% salary 8p) and so they can't always act on bug reports right away, as you could surmise from this not being the first time the bug is reported.
Cheers !

I wasn't trying to suggest that every bug should be fixed immediately, just that I have no knowledge of what is being worked on and what isn't. From what was said on the other site about this problem's longevity, the prevalence across all scenarios and its significant impact on gameplay the fact that it hasn't been fixed already meant it was entirely possible that this may just have been consigned to the 'too difficult' bucket.

If that was the case it would be useful to know as this bug is going to annoy all heck out of me and if it isn't on a list to be looked at then I can just cut my losses now and reinstall 97. Ditto if there is a likely timeline on when it might be worked on if it is to be so I know when to look for an update.

That is no reflection on the folks doing the work - limited resources are limited resources whether commercial coders or helpful volunteers - but equally I can't make any decisions on which version to use unless I know what is on the cards.

Cheers,

Guy

(in reply to noxious)

Post #: 13

Problem - 11/23/2008 12:59:25 AM

hermanhum

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Joined: 9/21/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: COBLU

I wasn't trying to suggest that every bug should be fixed immediately, just that I have no knowledge of what is being worked on and what isn't. From what was said on the other site about this problem's longevity, the prevalence across all scenarios and its significant impact on gameplay the fact that it hasn't been fixed already meant it was entirely possible that this may just have been consigned to the 'too difficult' bucket.

If that was the case it would be useful to know as this bug is going to annoy all heck out of me and if it isn't on a list to be looked at then I can just cut my losses now and reinstall 97. Ditto if there is a likely timeline on when it might be worked on if it is to be so I know when to look for an update.

If you want to know what is being worked on and part of the process, you can also sign up to be an HCE Beta tester, too. You can do so at the AGSI site (not that I am recommending this choice): http://forum.computerharpoon.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=49

My memory is hazy. Was this problem also present in HC97? Would you be free from the formation bug with HC 97 or another version?

If it has always been present, then you shouldn't deny yourself the new features in HCE i.e. area ECM. (If you don't think ECM is worthwhile, just try to play a scenario without any!)

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Post #: 14

RE: Problem - 11/23/2008 1:20:18 AM

Warhorse64

Posts: 154
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: hermanhum

quote:

ORIGINAL: CV32

quote:

ORIGINAL: hermanhum
Since when has that ever been an acceptable excuse?! I say Hang'em all by their thumbs until we get HCE-MP!

You know where to find me if you are volunteering to attempt the thumb hanging.

Possibly staring down the barrel of your Moisin Nagant?

Okay, let me re-phrase that. Hang all (who are not in possession of long-barrelled firearms) by their thumbs...

So, Herman ... just how does one code while hanging by one's thumbs ...??? :-P

(in reply to hermanhum)

Post #: 15

Problem - 11/23/2008 1:40:54 AM

hermanhum

Posts: 2209
Joined: 9/21/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Warhorse64

So, Herman ... just how does one code while hanging by one's thumbs ...??? :-P

Some things may be hanging upwards, but others are hanging downwards, too. A "truly" talented codificationist would be able to take advantage of this fact (and his third extremity)...

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Post #: 16

RE: Problem - 11/23/2008 5:21:21 AM

TonyE

Posts: 1551
Joined: 5/23/2006
From: MN, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: COBLU
I wasn't trying to suggest that every bug should be fixed immediately, just that I have no knowledge of what is being worked on and what isn't. From what was said on the other site about this problem's longevity, the prevalence across all scenarios and its significant impact on gameplay the fact that it hasn't been fixed already meant it was entirely possible that this may just have been consigned to the 'too difficult' bucket.

If that was the case it would be useful to know as this bug is going to annoy all heck out of me and if it isn't on a list to be looked at then I can just cut my losses now and reinstall 97. Ditto if there is a likely timeline on when it might be worked on if it is to be so I know when to look for an update.

That is no reflection on the folks doing the work - limited resources are limited resources whether commercial coders or helpful volunteers - but equally I can't make any decisions on which version to use unless I know what is on the cards.

Cheers,

Guy

Hi Guy,
I do think every bug should be fixed immediately but I also know that isn't going to happen. The formation bug(s) are going to be righted. It is not a 'too difficult' item nor a 'never fixing' item. Due to health issues/much more limited time spent on HCE the last 15 months or so I'm not keen on suggesting any dates for accomplishing anything.
Why I didn't fix the problem when Herman documented them focuses on an inability to fix it well within the current structure of the game. We've been working on and towards changing that structure (mainly making it seamless and easier to modify the internal game mechanics without ruining backwards compatibility with scenarios and saved game file formats).
This bug just happens to be one that is ideally dealt with AFTER the nifty groundwork has been laid. It also isn't something more than a few people have noticed and reported so I haven't been too tempted to fix it now with a bandaid and then fix it right later.
I hope this explanation helps. It isn't the answer I'd like to give but it is the truthful answer at this juncture.

_____________________________

Sincerely,
Tony Eischens
Harpoon (HC, HCE, HUCE, Classic) programmer
HarpGamer.com Co-Owner

(in reply to COBLU)

Post #: 17

RE: Problem - 11/23/2008 9:21:58 AM

COBLU

Posts: 17
Joined: 11/9/2008
Status: offline

Thank you Tony, that was exactly the kind of info I was after

I just hope that working on HCE wasn't a contributary factor to your health problems - I certainly wouldn't want to feel that my requests for fixes were driving someone to exhaustion just to get a game working perfectly (however much I enjoy the game) !

Cheers,

Guy

quote:

ORIGINAL: TonyE

Hi Guy,
I do think every bug should be fixed immediately but I also know that isn't going to happen. The formation bug(s) are going to be righted. It is not a 'too difficult' item nor a 'never fixing' item. Due to health issues/much more limited time spent on HCE the last 15 months or so I'm not keen on suggesting any dates for accomplishing anything.
Why I didn't fix the problem when Herman documented them focuses on an inability to fix it well within the current structure of the game. We've been working on and towards changing that structure (mainly making it seamless and easier to modify the internal game mechanics without ruining backwards compatibility with scenarios and saved game file formats).
This bug just happens to be one that is ideally dealt with AFTER the nifty groundwork has been laid. It also isn't something more than a few people have noticed and reported so I haven't been too tempted to fix it now with a bandaid and then fix it right later.
I hope this explanation helps. It isn't the answer I'd like to give but it is the truthful answer at this juncture.

(in reply to TonyE)

Post #: 18

RE: Problem - 11/23/2008 10:02:49 AM

COBLU

Posts: 17
Joined: 11/9/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: hermanhum

My memory is hazy. Was this problem also present in HC97? Would you be free from the formation bug with HC 97 or another version?

If it has always been present, then you shouldn't deny yourself the new features in HCE i.e. area ECM. (If you don't think ECM is worthwhile, just try to play a scenario without any!)

I hadn't seen the issues with the migrating formation before (and I've played thousands of games in the old version so I think I would have seen it if there) so I think 97 was clear of the problem. Either that or I just happen to live at the far end of the probability curve

I do agree that all the new features of HCE make it a much better game (working air-to-air refueling being top of my personal list rather than area ECM but the point is moot - it is just generally a whole lot better) but the older scenarios were designed to take those limitations into account. It may have limited realistic gameplay but it didn't involve me losing scenario breaking units because they have wandered off on a holiday cruise

I haven't really given HCE a fair try yet with your/Tony's suggested work around though so I don't think I'll be swapping back just yet.

Cheers,

Guy

(in reply to hermanhum)

Post #: 19

RE: Problem - 11/23/2008 7:30:40 PM

noxious

Posts: 177
Joined: 6/13/2008
From: Montreal, Qc, Canuckistan
Status: offline

You mean fifth : hanging by two feet, two dangling hands, and well, erhmm...

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Post #: 20

RE: Problem - 11/23/2008 7:33:05 PM

noxious

Posts: 177
Joined: 6/13/2008
From: Montreal, Qc, Canuckistan
Status: offline

Sorry if my post sounded harsher than it was intended :)

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(in reply to COBLU)

Post #: 21

RE: Problem - 11/25/2008 12:48:58 AM

Warhorse64

Posts: 154
Joined: 12/9/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: hermanhum

quote:

ORIGINAL: Warhorse64

So, Herman ... just how does one code while hanging by one's thumbs ...??? :-P

Some things may be hanging upwards, but others are hanging downwards, too. A "truly" talented codificationist would be able to take advantage of this fact (and his third extremity)...