RE: Zoom out on strategic map

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Close Combat Series >> Close Combat: Wacht am Rhein >> RE: Zoom out on strategic map

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RE: Zoom out on strategic map - 11/3/2008 9:49:54 AM

squadleader_id

Posts: 302
Joined: 10/29/2006
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Different preferences for different people I guess. But without a time limit...CC battles tend to be boring plodding affairs. The map you attached is from GJS, righ? The AI is even dumber on the bigger maps.
If you want to see how the AI attacks and manouver..."turn on always see the enemy" and watch the AI stumble around.
The AI in CC (especially CC4-CC5) needs triggers and a major revamp of the code so he understands basic tactics like flanking, supressing fire and combined arms tactics :)
The AI in WAR is a bit better...but still pretty dumb too at times.

(in reply to Stwa)

Post #: 31

RE: Zoom out on strategic map - 11/3/2008 10:57:10 AM

Stwa

Posts: 484
Joined: 8/12/2005
Status: offline

Hi squadleader_id,

Yes, the map is from GJS. And yes there are some huge maps. And yes again, you and I have a divergence in opinion, which is fine, becuase your last point is accepted. When there is no time limit this can be boring for many people.

1. In a no time limit game, on a huge map, the advantage can shift to an AI defender. Because you cant shoot up all your ammo and hold all the objetives at the same time.

2. The AI will use combined arms attacks, even if its by accident. The teams in each platoon and the 3 platoons together represent a combined armed force.

3. If the AI shoots his mortars or tanks at an enemy and shoots at them with a rifle squad at the same time he is using a combined arms attack.

4. If the AI uses an air strike or a naval barage during the game, he is using a combined arms attack.

5. The AI completely understands ambush and cover.

6. For infantry, flanks as a tactical concept have diminished in importance with the improvement of hand held weapons over time. The improvements allowed infantry to have large gaps in the line that could be covered by friendly units from a distance. As opposed to the old days when the line was sacred and men deployed shoulder to shoulder in a human wall.

7. Therefore, if you leave a large gap in your line, the AI can and will penetrate that gap, therefore exploiting the modern day notion of an exposed flank.

< Message edited by Stwa -- 11/3/2008 11:22:24 AM >

(in reply to squadleader_id)

Post #: 32

RE: Zoom out on strategic map - 11/3/2008 11:26:07 AM

squadleader_id

Posts: 302
Joined: 10/29/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stwa

1. In a no time limit game, on a huge map, the advantage can shift to an AI defender. Because you cant shoot up all your ammo and hold all the objetives at the same time.

On the bigger maps yes...on the smaller maps (the original CC4-CC5 maps were small and suited the engine better) a time limit is a good option.

quote:

2. The AI will use combined arms attacks, even if its by accident. The teams in each platoon and the 3 platoons together represent a combined armed force.

3. If the AI shoots his mortars at an enemy an shoots at them with a rifle squad at the same time he is using a combined arms attack.

4. If the AI infantry is advancing and the AI fires his tank at human defenders near the infantry advance, this is a combined arms attack. I see it all the time.

The AI enjoys sending squads piece meal trying to occupy objectives...sometimes sending a second and third squad (not as a combined attacking force) even after the first poor squad was massacred.

Tanks and infantry interaction would be something you see in Andrew William's video AAR...the CC AI either send tanks alone without infantry support...or infantry without tank support. Only in Vetmods (where infantry is coded as vehicles) do we see tanks and infantry manouvering and assaulting together.
AI mortars fire at targets of opportunity...rarely softening up enemy defensive positions or covering an assault.
Are we playing the same game here?

You might see those tactics employed by the AI in CC2 and to some extent CC3...but CC4 and CC5?

quote:

5. The AI completely understands ambush and cover.

Agreed! Like I said before...the AI will provide you with a decent opponent on defense.
One thing though...the AI do not setup his forces. A lot of times the AI will deploy AT guns in the open too. In defense, the AI also likes to give away his position by moving without good reason.

quote:

6. For infantry, flanks as a tactical concept have diminished in importance with the improvement of hand held weapons over time. The improvements allowing infantry to basically have large gaps in the line that can be covered by friendly units form large distances. As opposed to the old days when the line was sacred and men deployed shoulder to shoulder in a human wall.

7. Therefore, if you leave a large gap in your line, the AI can and will penetrate that gap, therefore exploiting the modern day notion of an exposed flank.

Well with practice we can execute flanking manouvers in CC...but the AI isn't cabable of that.
Supressing the enemy, pinning him down and then finishing him off with a flanking assault is still very affective tactic in WW2.

Most CC5 players have given up on playing the AI because of its deficiencies...most veterans are strictly H2H players. I still enjoy playing the AI (mostly as attackers, using vetmods etc)...but I think you overate the CC4/CC5/WAR AI :)

< Message edited by squadleader_id -- 11/3/2008 11:30:18 AM >

(in reply to Stwa)

Post #: 33

RE: Zoom out on strategic map - 11/3/2008 2:10:14 PM

Stwa

Posts: 484
Joined: 8/12/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: squadleader_id
Most CC5 players have given up on playing the AI because of its deficiencies...most veterans are strictly H2H players. I still enjoy playing the AI (mostly as attackers, using vetmods etc)...but I think you overate the CC4/CC5/WAR AI :)

Well, I do accept most of the points you make about the AI. And yes players have come to desire/expect a certain aggression level that makes CC fun for them. That, in my view, is not necessarily realistic. Players want fast action, explosions, screaming vetmods, where infantry behave like vehicles ... It makes the game fast, furious, and fun.

But, just because you have the game set on no time limit, does not mean you cannot achieve that same level of aggression that all CC players crave. So for our benefit, I have another screen shot. This is the Normandy map of Auville sur le Vey. Now, I am playing the Americans and I am going to Rambo the town in the first 15 minutes. I have a naval barage I intend on using and I am going to put up a smoke screen with my mortars. I have AT guns, cause I think I am gonna need em.

Normally, this map is defended by German paratroopers. But today, its defended by the 21st Panzer division and the AI is in charge.

Once I hit begin, the AI is so aggressive it vacates its position at the Machine Gun Nest and tries to Rambo the bridge. This is funny because its the AI and there is NO TIME LIMIT. Its also funny, because I am going to Rambo the bridge as well, but not until the naval barrage is complete.

Well, the German infantry gets plowed by the naval barrage, but enough of them make to the bridge, where they set up with their flame-throwers. Its too late since I have already orderd my troops accross, and as they run across the bridge, they are flamed.

Now the AI (you gotta admire its placement of the Panthers), is supporting its infantry with tanks. Even a 3rd rate AI can appreciate this kind of NO-BRAINER. I would call this a combined arms attack, because once the American infantry is wiped, you can bet the Panthers are going to roll on to the bridge. But, WAIT, I forget the AT's. If you'll check the screen shot, you will notice they are out of ammo. In the confusion, I forgot to order them to not fire. Oh well, I am toast....

All done in about 15 minutes. Yipee....

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Stwa -- 11/3/2008 2:35:35 PM >

(in reply to squadleader_id)

Post #: 34

RE: Zoom out on strategic map - 11/29/2008 11:00:21 AM

Maxy

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Joined: 11/29/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Williams

1.Too see the strat map and it's connections navigate to C:\Matrix Games\Close Combat Wacht am Rhein\Support\WaR_strat_Connections.pdf�

Print is out, Laminate it, you can even use it to sketch on and plan moves and counter moves.

2.The strat map can be scrolled using the sliders on the right and bottom of the map.

3.Will look at the fast scroll using the mouse.

4.Close Combat is real time Tactical combat - no orders while paused, that's for turn based games and would require a complete code rewrite.

I have printed it out, but it still doesn't help me with the strategic map in the game. Is it really impossible to have a zoom out option in the game?

I think the way you treat this opinion here is a bit arrogant. Have you seen Firaxis telling people to print out the world map to plan strategic moves in Civilization? No.. you can zoom out and actually draw your strategic moves IN the game.

Anyhow, the game is great. Thank you for it - I do not regret buying it. This is just the biggest issue for me and my H2H friend at the moment and we would like to see zooming out implemented in the game.

(in reply to Andrew Williams)

Post #: 35

RE: Zoom out on strategic map - 11/29/2008 12:13:38 PM

Andrew Williams

Posts: 6116
Joined: 1/8/2001
From: Australia
Status: offline

Thanks for the feedback Maxy

We have taken your remark on board.

please remember this is a rebuild of an old game.... but we are looking at this.

(in reply to Maxy)

Post #: 36

RE: Zoom out on strategic map - 11/29/2008 4:26:12 PM

Platoon_Michael

Posts: 1119
Joined: 3/9/2003
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My fingers are crossed.
That would be a huge addition to the game for me.

(in reply to Andrew Williams)

Post #: 37

RE: Zoom out on strategic map - 11/29/2008 6:05:52 PM

TheReal_Pak40

Posts: 186
Joined: 10/8/2003
Status: offline

Strategy map tip:

instead of using the awkward scroll bars or autoscrolling, try using the small inset map that has the entire campaign area. You can actually click and drag across the inset map. It's the best and easiest way to "pan" across the strategic map.

Still, it would be nice if the autoscrolling was slowed down AND a zoom out button was added.

(in reply to Stwa)

Post #: 38

RE: Zoom out on strategic map - 11/30/2008 1:47:33 PM

Platoon_Michael

Posts: 1119
Joined: 3/9/2003
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I notice while on the start of a new turn the name of a BG that has no opponent�to fight against �it doesnt tell you the name of your BG.
Also when previewing any of the maps for the upcomming battles (still @ the start of the turn) if always defaults back to Leidenborn.(atleast on where im at in my current GC)This is very annoying when trying to remember all ones moves for that turn.

My game also seems to crash on the first battle after a strat movement whenever I try to issues orders with waypoints on the zoomed out map during initial setup of the battle.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Platoon_Michael -- 11/30/2008 1:50:37 PM >

(in reply to TheReal_Pak40)

Post #: 39

RE: Zoom out on strategic map - 11/30/2008 7:30:16 PM

Tejszd

Posts: 3437
Joined: 11/17/2007
Status: offline

Thanks Platoon_Michael

I have confirmed/duplicated the missing BG name issue.

Haven't noticed or been able to duplicate the crash with waypoints when zoomed out but did notice they sometimes jump to another spot when zoomed out.

(in reply to Platoon_Michael)

Post #: 40

RE: Zoom out on strategic map - 12/1/2008 3:39:55 AM

crushingleeek_slith

Posts: 89
Joined: 11/24/2008
Status: offline

On the subject of increasing realism, can we:

1)make soldiers entering buildings only enter through doors instead of going through the walls? its always kind of bothered me. (i guess i can mod this with the workbook, but will that screw up pathfinding?)

2) For those who think game speed fast is too slow, one thing that might help is editing the moving speeds of all your units using the workbook. Just divide everything for soldier movement or vehicle movement, tracked movement,etc. (under the elements.txt) by 1.5 or 2 to speed up the redeployments. This really helped gameplay for me! Waiting for the normal game speed units to move, or crawl makes me wanna shoot myself sometimes. especially when you have moved on to ordering other units and come back to find them suppressed in the middle of a road just waiting to be shot.

3) From my idea of mortars, I think they travel way too fast. That is, almost immediately after you hear your mortar crew fire off a round, its already landed 400m away at its blast site. This is too fast! Is there a way to adjust the speed of the projectile?

Thanks! have fun CC community.

(in reply to Stwa)

Post #: 41

RE: Zoom out on strategic map - 12/1/2008 4:01:11 AM

Andrew Williams

Posts: 6116
Joined: 1/8/2001
From: Australia
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quote:

1)make soldiers entering buildings only enter through doors instead of going through the walls? its always kind of bothered me. (i guess i can mod this with the workbook, but will that screw up pathfinding?)

This is modelled in CCMT... it is my preference but seems to have had generally negative feedback.

(in reply to crushingleeek_slith)

Post #: 42

RE: Zoom out on strategic map - 12/1/2008 4:19:06 AM

Neil N

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Joined: 8/24/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: crushingleeek

1)make soldiers entering buildings only enter through doors instead of going through the walls? its always kind of bothered me.�(i guess i can mod this with the workbook, but will that screw up pathfinding?)

This was even taken to extremes in one of the military trainers. It was amazing to see...soldiers searching for doors and windows, soldiers actually maneuvering single file down hallways inside of buildings, etc...rather than just going through wall.

Like Andrew, I really enjoyed when something similar was included with CCMT, but as he said, overall it was not very popular and received lots of negative comments. So many years of running through walls must have spoiled people.

(in reply to crushingleeek_slith)

Post #: 43

RE: Zoom out on strategic map - 12/1/2008 4:48:51 AM

Tejszd

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Joined: 11/17/2007
Status: offline

People might have gotten somewhat spoiled but the AI was also somewhat to blame

The negative feedback was because things didn't work as smoothly as you describe a lot of times; soldiers tended to get left behind and lost from the rest of the squad, only a couple of soldiers would position themselves so they could fire, etc. If these AI problems could be improved and squads tended to have fewer men then it probably could be implemented with less complaints....

Walls can be set as solid for WAR by editing the elements.txt using the workbook if people wanted to test this for themselves.

Note: maps should be reviewed to make sure that the map coding was done so that there are interior and exterior doors and more windows

(in reply to Neil N)

Post #: 44

RE: Zoom out on strategic map - 12/2/2008 12:00:32 AM

crushingleeek_slith

Posts: 89
Joined: 11/24/2008
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quote:

3) From my idea of mortars, I think they travel way too fast. That is, almost immediately after you hear your mortar crew fire off a round, its already landed 400m away at its blast site. This is too fast! Is there a way to adjust the speed of the projectile?

So is there a way to modify the speed of a projectile? ie my mortar crew shoots (wait 10 seconds)...BOOM!

(in reply to crushingleeek_slith)

Post #: 45

RE: Zoom out on strategic map - 12/2/2008 12:48:27 AM

squadleader_id

Posts: 302
Joined: 10/29/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tejszd

People might have gotten somewhat spoiled but the AI was also somewhat to blame

The negative feedback was because things didn't work as smoothly as you describe a lot of times; soldiers tended to get left behind and lost from the rest of the squad, only a couple of soldiers would position themselves so they could fire, etc. If these AI problems could be improved and squads tended to have fewer men then it probably could be implemented with less complaints....

Walls can be set as solid for WAR by editing the elements.txt using the workbook if people wanted to test this for themselves.

Note: maps should be reviewed to make sure that the map coding was done so that there are interior and exterior doors and more windows

Agreed!
The AI just couldn't cope with solid walls...urban maps battles just became a mess with soldiers getting separated or crawling around trying to find windows to shoot out of...manouvering ackwardly trying to locate doors to enter buildings.
With a rebuilt AI...solid walls will make the game more realistic...but with the current AI...realistic but very messy

I can live with the abstractions of soldiers moving through walls.
The way the engine handles multi-level buildings as just one level (top level) is also an abstraction...not realistic but better for gameplay.

(in reply to Tejszd)

Post #: 46