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Matrix Demo Philosophy Revisited - 4/24/2002 10:53:38 AM

shoeless

Posts: 18
Joined: 12/14/2001
From: Oregon Territory
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Dear Matrix Games,

In reviewing the following post of last year from Demo (La Grand Armee) . . . (bold highlights added)

quote:

We do not have any plans for releasing a demo.

Our Demo philosophy:

In the mainstream "game clone" market there is an argument that a demo makes sense to allow players to evaluate from amongst a bevy of nearly identical fare.

Wargaming as a hobby is on life support, and demos tend to discourage sales, not encourage them.

We need hobbyists like those that supported the golden age of baordgaming, buying games when they came out knowing full well they would really only fall in love with some of them, but considering the money spent on the others "support of the hobby".

We have given the community 3 free complete games. Now its time to decide if you want a provider of a wide assortment of wargames or not.

Like the Bargain Bin (Don't hold your breath for our games to go on sale for 14.99...) demos are BAD for the long term success of the hobby, in our (and several other company's) opinion.

Games are largely impulse purchases. If you satisfy the impulse to "see what its like" with a demo, unless you have to discriminate yourself form a dozen alternatives, it ends up satisfying their curiosity and they never pull the trigger to buy.

I've given my perspective on game value. For the $50 or so a shipped game costs I can barely take my family of four to the movies. On a "time-enjoyment average" compared with sporting events, concerts and movies, gaming offers a significant bang for your buck! Even at 40-60 bucks (shipped) a pop! --Matrix Games, 12-12-2001

Today, we received a commercial email from David Heath announcing the following (bold highlights are mine):

quote:

MATRIX GAMES RELEASES DEMO VERSION OF STARSHIPS UNLIMITED: DIVIDED GALAXIES v1.2

Matrix Games is proud to announce the release of a demo version of the popular space strategy game Starships Unlimited: Divided Galaxies.

We are pleased to be able to offer a demo version," said David Heath, Director of Operations at Matrix Games. "It's the best way we can think of to get the word out that this is a truly fun game.

Would Matrix Games care to review the post at the top in order to clarify its current Demo Philosophy? There appears to be more than one :eek demo philosophy, given the post of 12-12-01 noted on this LGA board and the Matrix demo email announcement of today, yes?

Denny

Post #: 1

- 4/24/2002 11:32:02 AM

rosary

Posts: 1162
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From: U.S.A.
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My question would be the following:

Would you prefer to discuss philosophies or be able to download demos?

That being said I think the main idea would be that if players are going to be playing demos anyways they might as well be playing Matrix Games demos. I'm grateful that the demos are available but I'm someone that BUYS games after I try them.

(in reply to shoeless)

Post #: 2

- 4/24/2002 4:07:31 PM

Sir George Head

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Joined: 4/16/2002
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They are right. Do you really think, anyone did buy Fortress Europe when played a demo?

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Post #: 3

- 4/24/2002 11:36:14 PM

Larry Holt

Posts: 1969
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From: Atlanta, GA 30068
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There are demos and then there are demos. A limited one scenario demo like Close Combat (IIRC) whets our appetites while not giving so much away that one can play it for a long time instead of buying the full version.

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Never take counsel of your fears.

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Post #: 4

- 4/25/2002 12:54:27 AM

Charles2222

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Joined: 3/12/2001
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IMO, Matrix is doing the right thing in releasing a demo for Starships. If the majority of sales comes down to people who log on here, then obviously sci-fi isn't exactly our forte.

IMO games which are simpler to play, and as Larry notes, don't give too much away, are what's ideal for demos. Unfortunately, I don't think complicated games make for good demos, including CL, SPWAW, WITP, UV et al. If the game is fairly intuitive, then a demo might work, but if it's complicated the user could become much more frustrated than pleased, so they may be impulsively turned-off.

I think we may be having our desire for seeing this stuff earlier, overriding sounder thought, afterall, how many Gary Grigsby games have you ever had a demo version of? Naturally, most of us are likely to think that demos help, but in the case of complicated games I'd suggest videos instead, where the product can be shown for basically what is, but that the user cannot play, to where the frustrations of not having a rulebook come into play. In a sense, we have that, when we get glimpses through screenshots, though it certainly doesn't satisfy wanting to see gameflow and hearing some audio.

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Post #: 5

- 4/25/2002 1:54:09 AM

Paul Vebber

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From: Portsmouth RI
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Like I said on the LGA demo thread, the assumption that "demo= sales" has yet to be proved.

Based on what evidence do you cling so tightly to this belief that demos are the key to increasing sales?

From a business standpoint it is teh converse, someone has to prove to me that spending the time to do a demo will pay off.

So far the evidence isn't there that I can find.

Data.

Show me data that substantiates your belief. So far lightning hasn't struck STUN:DG sales, but we are hopeful and will give it chance...

Far from having "caught us in an inconsistency" that many revel in rooting out in the "official pronouncements" of boards like this you have found that we keep an open mind and revisit our policies and experiement to understand our markey better.

I good thing I would think and something to "call us onto the carpet" for...

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Post #: 6

- 4/25/2002 2:30:42 AM

Larry Holt

Posts: 1969
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From: Atlanta, GA 30068
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Paul is looking for the data. I assume that this means marketing data. Has Matrix tried polling customers of games with and without demos to see what prompted them to buy? Any marketing degree types out there who can research this for their favorite game company?

As for me, I bought a game for my son from Amazon this weekend. When it came, it turns out that it does not run on either his video card nor mine. We are both disappointed and will have to return the game and while I will get my money back, I will have to pay for return postage. We will probably not purchase games this way again. I have a sour taste in my mouth now. A demo would have prevented this.

As far as spending resources to build a demo use SPWaW as an example. Suppose it was a game to be sold only. Now suppose the editors, all scenarios except one, battle generator and save function were removed you'd have a demo that was fun for the one remaining scenario but not so extensive that someone would play it instead of the real game. I don't know how hard it would be to gut the code modules for the editor, etc. but is a case of removing something, not developing more code to make a demo from scratch.

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Never take counsel of your fears.

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Post #: 7

- 4/25/2002 7:49:46 AM

Big Bill

Posts: 177
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when SP first came out I recieved a Demo on a free disk in a game mag.......if I didn't stumble on this demo would I be playing SPWAW today???? .I'm not new to wargaming but when I saw SP I was totaly amaized how much fun computer war gamming has become! I doubt I would buy a space game but who know's?? After I try the demo I may get hooked.

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Post #: 8

- 4/25/2002 7:51:04 AM

rosary

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Well, I don't usually buy games unless the following criteria are met:

1) I love the demo

2) I played a previous version and like it enough
to get the next version.

3) Someone I trust says, Get this game NOW!!!

To be competely accurate some demos have turned me off to those games. Those are usually crappy games though. But the Stun demo convinced me to get buy STUN. I'm just awaiting for it to arrive.

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Post #: 9

- 4/25/2002 12:40:44 PM

Fred98

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I have an example:

HPS has a series of games out called Panzer Battles. They seem to be similar to your upcoming title Battleline

The 6th game in the series is about to be released. But there are no demos.

The reviews of the other 5 games have good points and bad. Good graphics and bad. If only there was a demo so I could decide for myself. No demo no sale.
-

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Post #: 10

- 4/25/2002 4:09:05 PM

Ardle

Posts: 93
Joined: 9/15/2000
From: Hiroshima, Japan
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Joe 98
[B]I have an example:

HPS has a series of games out called Panzer Battles. They seem to be similar to your upcoming title Battleline

The 6th game in the series is about to be released. But there are no demos.

The reviews of the other 5 games have good points and bad. Good graphics and bad. If only there was a demo so I could decide for myself. No demo no sale.
- [/B][/QUOTE]

HPS doesn't need to release demos for Panzer Campaigns and related series since it has a loyal (and rather sycophantic) following who know exactly what they're getting with each virtually identical release (conservative games aimed at the old boardgaming crowd).

It's a different story when you're releasing a completely new game, though...

_____________________________

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Fallopian twinkled. "They accuse us of being paranoids."
"They?" inquired Metzger, twinkling also.
"Us?" asked Oedipa.

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Post #: 11

- 4/25/2002 6:56:21 PM

Larry Holt

Posts: 1969
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From: Atlanta, GA 30068
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Big Bill
[B]when SP first came out I recieved a Demo on a free disk in a game mag....[/B][/QUOTE]
Good point. Around '97I bought a set of CDs with 20 wargames demos on it. SP was one of them and I loved it so much I've never had time to play any of the other demos yet. That SP demo hooked me and here I am today.

_____________________________

Never take counsel of your fears.

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Post #: 12

- 4/25/2002 7:10:55 PM

Marc von Martial

Posts: 10875
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From: Bonn, Germany
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[QUOTE]Any marketing degree types out there who can research this for their favorite game company? [/QUOTE]

The very owner of this company graduated in marketing ;)

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Post #: 13

- 4/26/2002 1:18:55 AM

Larry Holt

Posts: 1969
Joined: 3/31/2000
From: Atlanta, GA 30068
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Marc Schwanebeck
[B]

The very owner of this company graduated in marketing ;) [/B][/QUOTE]
That's OK, I like his games so I still respect him. ;)

_____________________________

Never take counsel of your fears.

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Post #: 14

- 4/26/2002 1:54:01 AM

Charles2222

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Larry Holt: Yeah, I know what you mean. If I see:

one more car commerical, or worse yet SUV, where they're driving 100MPH or spinning wildly in water......

one more bimbo basically naked to sell something......

or one more person with smiles that suggest they're found the fountain of youth and are selling the most trifling bit of garbage, I 'll scream!!!

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Post #: 15

- 4/26/2002 7:45:31 AM

Fred98

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From: Wollondilly, Sydney
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Another option, already suggested by somebody else, would be a small video showing the game in action. Perhaps with a bit of text so we can follow the action.

Some of us still use dial up so it needs to be a short video or 2 or 3 short videos.

I have no idea how much work is required to make a demo. Perhaps Paul could enlighten us. Some demos are very large and some of us use dial up modems so we will not download them anyway.

For Close Combat 1, it was the box art that hooked me. On the front of the box is a man who looks like he has a received an order to do something that may well kill him.

The art on the back of the box was a great turn off. Canary yellow tanks? Bright green grass? It was a worry.

It was the box art on the front that sold me that game.

As for CC2, CC3, CC4 and CC5. Look at the box art. They are all horrible. If I did not have CC1, it is unlikely I would have bought the other 4.

And yet I did not bother to read reviews or download demos. I got the games because I knew they would be great.

Steel Panthers is the opposite. It has had great reviews. I tried that game but it is not to my taste. However some players really enjoy it. So how can I trust any future reviews written by that same author on any game whatsoever? His tastes are different to mine.

I have never been a fan of naval warfare. I have been reading the AARs written by the beta testers of Uncommon Valour. Half of it I cannot understand but this is a game I would like to try. If there were a demo or a video, it is more likely than unlikely that I would buy it.

And to Atomic�s World at War series. Again the box art got me hooked. Since then other games have tried to be as good as W@W but have failed.

In suspect your upcoming Battleline game may well be a suitable replacement. But there have been so many flops after W@W that a demo would be really useful.

Or a short video.
-

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Post #: 16

- 4/26/2002 9:14:54 PM

Paul Vebber

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Unfortunately our STUN:DG edemo experiment is not going rather well - with nearly 10,000 hits on the various DL sites, there has been no discernable increase in sales.

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Post #: 17

- 4/26/2002 11:04:19 PM

shoeless

Posts: 18
Joined: 12/14/2001
From: Oregon Territory
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Paul,

I was not even aware this Matrix game, Stun:DG, too had a demo.

Just to be clear, has the Matrix demo policy changed from an absolutely no demo policy . . . to "demo only as a last recourse" one in order to hopefully increase a good game's otherwise weak sales? Or are you saying that Stun:DG sales have been brisk up and until the release of its complementary demo?

In the meantime, I will download the demo to check it out. Thanks.

Denny

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Post #: 18

- 4/27/2002 1:14:37 AM

Paul Vebber

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No, changing our "no-demos policy" requires some evidence that the time and effort of doing a demo is rewarded.

We do try to keep an open mind and try things to test the market waters in different ways.

We may try other "experiments" with demos in the future, but so far there is no evidence to warrant a change.

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Post #: 19

- 4/28/2002 10:40:50 AM

Bernie

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Paul Vebber
[B]No, changing our "no-demos policy" requires some evidence that the time and effort of doing a demo is rewarded.

We do try to keep an open mind and try things to test the market waters in different ways.

We may try other "experiments" with demos in the future, but so far there is no evidence to warrant a change. [/B][/QUOTE]

(Tongue in cheek)

Paul, it's a proven marketing fact that the best advertising is word of mouth. More people will buy a product based upon the recommendation of a friend or co-worker than will buy it from flashy commercials or print ads. Okay, that being true what you obviously need to do is give [B][I]ME[/I][/B] a free copy of everything you have, and I in turn will then rave about those products to all my friends, family and co-workers. Now, since there are six degrees of separation between any two given people on the planet it then follows that simply giving me copies will not generate maximum exposure. You'll have to pick 5 other people to give copies to as well. By the end of two weeks after you send those copies out Matrix Games will have been raved about to all 3.somethingsomething [I]billion[/I] people on the planet. Now, if just 1/10th of 1% of those people buy something from Matrix that's still over 3 million sales in your corporate bank account. All this for only the cost of a few games! How can you resist such a deal? I'll be sending the address to ship my games to under a seperate e-mail.

:D

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Post #: 20

- 4/30/2002 9:53:51 PM

Grenadier