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RE: Artillery Poll - 10/24/2008 5:17:12 AM   
cesteman


Posts: 845
Joined: 2/15/2004
From: San Luis Obispo, CA
Status: offline 		Talk to SPZABT, he's in Charge.

(in reply to OTZ)
Post #: 31
RE: Artillery Poll - 10/24/2008 7:41:10 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		Hey you guys....I sent out the version I have ( which is the one Steve Sill sent to me to playtest without any changes ) to so many guys I decided to upload it on a server so you can just retrieve it yourselves without any intermediary.  Steve says it's okay to do this.  You can find 28MAR09 Directive 21.zip at this url:

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?3dyy5tjrg1y

enjoy.

EDITed to insert the latest version information instead of the old one.

< Message edited by larryfulkerson -- 3/28/2009 11:27:04 PM >

(in reply to cesteman)
Post #: 32
RE: Artillery Poll - 10/24/2008 3:21:09 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		EDIT: deleted this message since it's no longer relevent.

< Message edited by larryfulkerson -- 1/15/2009 4:44:19 AM >

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Post #: 33
RE: Artillery Poll - 10/27/2008 5:13:15 PM   
OTZ

 

Posts: 40
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Just finished turn one. So far so good (I suppose).

Only one issue so far - Soviet units in the Finland/Romania regions seem keen on attacking, and thereby activating the whole fronts. Is there any way to prevent them from doing this?

The AI is a lot more aggressive (true to history), but I am wondering how this will play out in the long run. Will it be focussed on attacking, or will it recognise dangerous situations and retreat (a la Russian reaction to Case Blue)?

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 34
RE: Artillery Poll - 10/27/2008 9:54:18 PM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline
quote:

Soviet units in the Finland/Romania regions seem keen on attacking, and thereby activating the whole fronts.


We certainly made the effort to prevent this happening. However, even though Elmer is 'programmed', he doesn't always do the same thing. Feel free to send me the .sal file and I can take a look to see who the offending units are and what can be done.

Edit - The scenario should not be started in 'hotseat' mode, as the Soviet formation orders will not hold.

quote:

...will it recognise dangerous situations and retreat...


Yes. Elmer may not react as some human players would react in situations, but we all react differently at times, too. One thing we are looking for during the playtest period are situations that the players question. For example, several players noted that Elmer doesn't defend Minsk. We can adjust things so that Minsk is now defended. I won't claim that all possiblilties will be (or should be) covered.

Thanks OTZ.

< Message edited by sPzAbt653 -- 11/7/2008 6:55:17 AM >

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Post #: 35
RE: HRS stats - 11/1/2008 11:35:53 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline 		We are interested in some stats if any of you can take a minute to post them here or e-mail them to me. We are looking for three things: current turn #, current Axis Heavy Rifle Squads 'lost', and current Axis Heavy Rifle Squads 'on hand'.

Thanks,
Steve

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 36
RE: HRS stats - 11/1/2008 1:04:29 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
We are interested in some stats if any of you can take a minute to post them here or e-mail them to me. We are looking for three things: current turn #, current Axis Heavy Rifle Squads 'lost', and current Axis Heavy Rifle Squads 'on hand'.


Since I'm playing FITE as well as playtesting the D21 scenario I did a comparison of the losses between the two and thought you guys might find it interesting to see the results:




Attachment (1)

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 37
RE: HRS stats - 11/1/2008 1:15:45 PM   
vahauser


Posts: 1644
Joined: 10/1/2002
From: Texas
Status: offline 		Larry,

This is due to the fact that Directive 21 has set the Attrition Divider = 6. 

I've been concerned that the AD=6 was going to make Directive 21 too bloody.



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Post #: 38
RE: HRS stats - 11/1/2008 1:43:40 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vahauser
I've been concerned that the AD=6 was going to make Directive 21 too bloody.


I'm concerned too. I am only on turn 9 and already find that I've run out of on-hand HRS's and the strength of the land combat units of my Axis army is decreasing since I've run out of HRS's. And I emphasize that I'm only on turn 9 of 400+ turns. Clearly something may be amiss. Thoughts?

(in reply to vahauser)
Post #: 39
RE: HRS stats - 11/1/2008 6:06:55 PM   
cesteman


Posts: 845
Joined: 2/15/2004
From: San Luis Obispo, CA
Status: offline 		I'm see that as well and I'm only on turn 7! Not good.

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 40
RE: HRS stats - 11/2/2008 5:01:13 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline 		The second part would be the same stats for the Soviet side. It might be best for the players to send me a save file for that. The reason for all this is to make a judgement based on the playtesting, which from what I understand is the only way to set the attrition divider for a scenario. So far I have only one complete set of stats, and that from turn 50. These stats are for Heavy Rifle Squads for the Axis side, and Rifle Squads for the Soviet side.

AD = 10 German on hand = 15,734 Lost = 14,910
AD = 6 German on hand = 135 Lost = 43,990

AD = 10 Soviet on hand = 64 Lost = 116,829
AD = 6 Soviet on hand = 0 Lost = 135,888

(For those interested, I was told that AD 10 casualties will be multiplied by between 1.5 and 2 times if the AD is set at 6. This is designed to reflect the difference between one week turns and half week turns.)

These stats are from two different players, so different playing styles take an effect. Any way you look at it, the AD 6 player is taking more casualties to cause less casualties. If the AD only affected the attacker, that would make sense. But it doesn't as far as I know. Anybody else that has this information from around turn 50, it would be interesting to see it.

We'd like to run the same tests on the truck rates, but I think that has to come much later in the scenario.

(in reply to cesteman)
Post #: 41
RE: HRS stats - 11/3/2008 3:21:44 PM   
OTZ

 

Posts: 40
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Interesting. I'll post some of my stats through to the start of turn 4 when I get a chance.

I am finding it to be very bloody as well. My HRS losses are very high, and I have many units in the orange already, but all is not so bleak.

However, that being said, I am annhilating the Russians. They have lost well over 3000 aircraft already, all but a handful of T34s remain (and I literally mean a handful), much of their armour is gone, and they have suffered terrible terrible losses in terms of Rifle Squads.  

< Message edited by OTZ -- 11/3/2008 4:02:17 PM >

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 42
RE: HRS stats - 11/5/2008 7:06:42 AM   
cesteman


Posts: 845
Joined: 2/15/2004
From: San Luis Obispo, CA
Status: offline 		I have a turn to send ya. I'll send it in a few

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Post #: 43
RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 11/7/2008 4:00:50 AM   
ralphtricky


Posts: 6685
Joined: 7/27/2003
From: Colorado Springs
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Silvanski


quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Bridge Blowing:
I don't know that there is a way to make the PO blow bridges. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't.


Formations on "defend" orders will be more likely to blow bridges. Either Ralph or Jamiam told me, and I've noticed it when setting the PO for the Gotterdammerung 1944-1945 mod

Yes, that's true, you can get more information on what the PO is going by turning on the POLog flag in the Opart 3.ini file.


_____________________________

Ralph Trickey
TOAW IV Programmer
Blog: http://operationalwarfare.com
---
My comments are my own, and do not represent the views of any other person or entity. Nothing that I say should be construed in any way as a promise of anything.

(in reply to Silvanski)
Post #: 44
RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 11/15/2008 11:22:14 PM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
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From: east coast, usa
Status: offline
quote:

you can get more information on what the PO is doing by turning on the POLog flag


Hi Ralph,

What does the 'unitpolog' do? I don't want to turn it on if it makes the garage door go up and down on my neighbors house!

Thanks.

(in reply to ralphtricky)
Post #: 45
RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 11/16/2008 3:05:29 AM   
ralphtricky


Posts: 6685
Joined: 7/27/2003
From: Colorado Springs
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

quote:

you can get more information on what the PO is doing by turning on the POLog flag


Hi Ralph,

What does the 'unitpolog' do? I don't want to turn it on if it makes the garage door go up and down on my neighbors house!

Thanks.

It gives you more information than you want.

It actually traces where each unit will go and why. It was handy for me when trying to figure out why the units weren't attacking the way that they should, etc.

There are some other tricks, like... you can set the visibleAI floag, and hold down the control key, and you'll be able to see what path each formation will take.

Ralph


_____________________________

Ralph Trickey
TOAW IV Programmer
Blog: http://operationalwarfare.com
---
My comments are my own, and do not represent the views of any other person or entity. Nothing that I say should be construed in any way as a promise of anything.

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 46
RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 11/19/2008 7:13:02 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		I've found a slight problemo with the railroad engineers. Due to enemy action one RR engineer unit was split up and forced off the rail where it couldn't move at all. The only recourse was to disband it and hope it re-spawned. Well it does re-spawn but not on the rail. I have attached a picture to show the problem.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to ralphtricky)
Post #: 47
RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 11/19/2008 3:02:49 PM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline 		Thanks Mr. Fulkerson, I'll set them to reconstitute at Berlin. That's not always a guarantee, though. It's not really necessary to get those units that close to the action. I usually keep them 2-3 hexes back from danger, and if they get closer I give them some sort of protection (a corps or army HQ is usually good enough).

Speaking of the German Korps HQ's, we are working on putting the OKH Artillery units into these formations. Currently they are in their own formation, and it may be a good idea to have them attached to the corps HQ's. This doesn't change how a player can use them. If anyone has any thoughts as to this being a good or bad idea, we'd like to hear.

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 48
RE: Artillery Poll - 11/25/2008 12:15:41 AM   
Rekm41


Posts: 561
Joined: 8/8/2004
From: Canada EH!
Status: offline 		I too would love a copy of this scenario. rockin_ron at rogers dot com

_____________________________

Keep Moving and Keep your Head DOWN!!

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Post #: 49
RE: Artillery Poll - 11/25/2008 1:23:59 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		I sent it to you. Did you get it yet?

EDIT: You can also download the latest version: 28MAR09 Directive 21.zip at this url:

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?3dyy5tjrg1y

Let us know how your game goes, okay?

< Message edited by larryfulkerson -- 3/28/2009 11:28:52 PM >

(in reply to Rekm41)
Post #: 50
RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 11/25/2008 3:04:38 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline
quote:

It gives you more information than you want.


What would be of interest, if at all possible, is to determine something about reconstitution. For example, if there are 40 divisions eligible to reconstitute, but due to the current number of replacements only 20 actually will, how is it decided which ones will reconstitute? By the order of their destruction? By their place in the order of battle? By the grace of Allah?

Thanks.

(in reply to ralphtricky)
Post #: 51
RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 11/25/2008 5:30:00 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
What would be of interest, if at all possible, is to determine something about reconstitution. For example, if there are 40 divisions eligible to reconstitute, but due to the current number of replacements only 20 actually will, how is it decided which ones will reconstitute?


I'm not exactly sure how the playtesters can determine the criteria as to how / why / when / which ones / etc. divisions reconstitute but there may be a scenario designer out there who has that information on their desk blotter. Hint, hint.

EDIT: It just dawns on me that you're asking Ralph. Sorry.

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 52
RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 11/30/2008 5:31:12 PM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline 		I've started my own 'Run for the Urals' and have made it thru the first 20 turns. My idea is to get as close to Moscow and Rostov as I can before the first mud, then hopefully after the mud I can be reset in good shape to have a go at Moscow-Voronezh-Rostov. This will take away 16 of the 27 Soviet production sites before the turn 48 doubling of their production. In the Leningrad area I will happy with advancing to a line along the Luga and from there southeast to the Valdai hills, to protect the north flank of the drive on Moscow.
Elmer has only done one silly thing so far, he gave up Belomorsk in Central Finland. I didn't see any reason for this as he was only facing the 14th Division in that area, so I have made a few adjustments there.
The loss penalty so far is 240/9, with a ratio of German Heavy Rifle Squad losses to Soviet Rifle Squad losses of 10-1. I've lost about 1,500 planes to a Soviet loss of 5,000, and I lost air superiority at turn 12.
The real easy part is over, and from now on the Axis supply situation becomes disgusting. But I still have another 60-80 turns of overall ground superiority.




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 53
RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 11/30/2008 6:21:47 PM   
r6kunz


Posts: 1103
Joined: 7/4/2002
From: near Philadelphia
Status: offline 		PzAbt653
I would appreciate a copy of the latest version of Directive 23.
It looks like a great project..
Rob Kunz
Road to Moscow for TOAW

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 54
RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 12/2/2008 5:53:51 PM   
cesteman


Posts: 845
Joined: 2/15/2004
From: San Luis Obispo, CA
Status: offline 		Hey, I was wondering about the issue with RR repair units not being able to move if forced off rail lines. I know you said you'd fix it just wondering if your waiting to for other players to finish their games? Another thing I noticed, (and maybe it's my style of play) is the Russians advance against the axis allies in the south and beat them up a bit around turn 2. Just wondering because I was thinking of starting a new game. Cheers!

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 55
RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 12/2/2008 6:26:44 PM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cesteman

Hey, I was wondering about the issue with RR repair units not being able to move if forced off rail lines. I know you said you'd fix it just wondering if your waiting to for other players to finish their games?


The issue with the rail repair units was that they might reconstitute in a non-rail hex and then not be able to move. They have been set to a 'fixed' reconstitution location at Berlin so maybe this won't happen. The real point is not to get them involved in the fighting, they don't need to be right up at the most forward areas. Rail repair doesn't necessarily occur next to the unit, it occurs near the unit.

quote:

Another thing I noticed, (and maybe it's my style of play) is the Russians advance against the axis allies in the south and beat them up a bit around turn 2. Just wondering because I was thinking of starting a new game.


This shouldn't happen in enough force until turn 4. The reason there are issues there is that the Axis can rail units to that area and get things started before turn 4, so many of the Soviet units in that area are set to be released if an Axis unit attacks them or moves adjacent to them. So if you leave them alone, they will stay put until turn 4 also. That said, Elmer does occasionally find a few units that he can harass you with. Whenever this happens I like to see the .sal file from that turn so that I can see the exact cause, and then determine if an adjustment is necessary. Earlier we had some players start the scenario in hotseat mode, and this doesn't work at all, so there was no adjustment to be made. When I started my game last week, I caught a Soviet recon unit squeeking through the Hungarian lines, so I gave that unit an 'adjustment'.

I think I said before that if anyone is planning to restart, contact me for the latest file. Since we started playtesting, we've made numerous adjustments. If there was anything major I would let everyone know, but so far we've had no problems. I've also been asked by a few if it is ok to restart. Of course! Ask Elmer, he doesn't mind!

I'll send you the file now Mr. Stemen.

(in reply to cesteman)
Post #: 56
RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 12/2/2008 8:34:44 PM   
cesteman


Posts: 845
Joined: 2/15/2004
From: San Luis Obispo, CA
Status: offline 		Thanks I got it. I'll save a file around turn 4 and send it to you if I see something wrong. Cheers!

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 57
RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 12/2/2008 8:49:22 PM   
Rekm41


Posts: 561
Joined: 8/8/2004
From: Canada EH!
Status: offline 		What is the latest version of this scenario? I have one dated 10/24/08 is that the latest one?

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Keep Moving and Keep your Head DOWN!!

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Post #: 58
RE: Directive 21 playtesters thread - 12/3/2008 2:01:32 AM   
cesteman


Posts: 845
Joined: 2/15/2004
From: San Luis Obispo, CA
Status: offline 		According to SPZABT653 there is no real version out there right now per say. To be more specific, the general scenario is unchanged. Mostly refinements to elmer are being made to help the human player manage his game. As stated two posts above, the RR units are being changed to re spawn in Berlin because in some cases if their attacked and retreat, they are not able to move once displaced. Your option is to disband them so they will show up for rail movement. Hope this helps!

(in reply to Rekm41)
Post #: 59
RE: Artillery Poll - 12/4/2008 12:38:21 AM   
Rekm41


Posts: 561
Joined: 8/8/2004
From: Canada EH!
Status: offline 		I noticed that in the info for Directive 21 it says a maximum of 3 combat rounds. I am at 4 is this supposed to be a self-imposed restriction?

Thanks

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Keep Moving and Keep your Head DOWN!!

(in reply to OTZ)
Post #: 60
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