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Yes, once again Tojo V Tony

 
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Yes, once again Tojo V Tony - 12/7/2008 5:10:24 PM   
niceguy2005


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Status: offline 		This is not a question, but rather and observation. Now that I am into 10/42 in my AI game I have noticed that the Tojo has well out performed the Tony. I find the Tony to be a shockingly fragile plane (even relative to other fragile IJ planes). Anyone else finding the same results? I had invested in twice as many Tony factories as I did Tojos. I'm regretting that decision.

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RE: Yes, once again Tojo V Tony - 12/7/2008 5:15:04 PM   
2ndACR


Posts: 5665
Joined: 8/31/2003
From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline 		IIRC, Tony's are bomber killers. Tojo's are good against fighters.

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RE: Yes, once again Tojo V Tony - 12/7/2008 5:33:26 PM   
herwin

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

IIRC, Tony's are bomber killers. Tojo's are good against fighters.


And both are underrated in the game against Allied fighters. The Tojo was a match for the Spitfire V, and the Tony wasn't that shabby (although in the hands of equal pilots, the exchange ratio was about 2-1 in favour of the Spit). Not so in the game.

The other problem is that pilot skill is overrated in the game. In reality, the best (perhaps about 90) versus the worst (whatever the lowest skill level of the Japanese in 1943-44 was) was about 5-1 in exchange ratio. This plus 2-1 for the aircraft produced the 10-1 seen during that period.

< Message edited by herwin -- 12/7/2008 5:45:32 PM >

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RE: Yes, once again Tojo V Tony - 12/7/2008 5:53:34 PM   
rominet


Posts: 523
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From: Paris
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quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

This is not a question, but rather and observation. Now that I am into 10/42 in my AI game I have noticed that the Tojo has well out performed the Tony. I find the Tony to be a shockingly fragile plane (even relative to other fragile IJ planes). Anyone else finding the same results? I had invested in twice as many Tony factories as I did Tojos. I'm regretting that decision.


I have made many tests in order to see differences between Tojo and Tony but it was in CHS 155.
As all mods don't have the same plane's statistics, tell me first which mod you are playing.
Or which stats do you have for these planes!!

< Message edited by rominet -- 12/7/2008 5:55:46 PM >

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RE: Yes, once again Tojo V Tony - 12/7/2008 5:56:30 PM   
Japan


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From: Heaven on Earth (Scandinavia of course)
Status: offline 		In Big.B   Tojo is better then 61B Tony,  but  61C Tony is better then Tojo.
So, go for Tojo untill 61C Tony is out.. is my opinion anyways.
 

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RE: Yes, once again Tojo V Tony - 12/7/2008 6:46:59 PM   
Nemo121


Posts: 5821
Joined: 2/6/2004
Status: offline 		Harry,

I just have a question about the 90 Exp vs 30 Exp (Allied vs Japanese ) 5:1 exchange ratio. Surely though that would be skewed by the reality that in a squadron of Allies flying Spits you might have 10 x 90 Exp guys, 4 x 70 Exp guys and 2 x 50 Exp guys and in any run-in with the Japanese losses would tend to be concentrated in the 2 x 50 Exp guys.

I don't question the overall thrust of the exchange ratio correlation with experience but just wonder if such an effect was looked for ( and noticeable ) in the work you did ?  I have read about it anecdotally numerous times in relation to aerial warfare, tanks, etc etc etc and think it could be a bit of a confounder to the ratio you found.

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RE: Yes, once again Tojo V Tony - 12/7/2008 6:58:25 PM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
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quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

IIRC, Tony's are bomber killers. Tojo's are good against fighters.


In stock, I agree with 2ndACR.

In my stock game with Moses (AARs still viewable) I got decent results (in Burma) by placing both Tony's and Tojo's back at "support" bases, 2 hexes behind the front line bases, and depending on "bleed over" CAP to pull a few fighters into the air battles over the front line bases. This put the actual bases out of range of the most effective escorts, but still forced escort of all missions. I also spread out my fighters to cover all the bases. This meant that only 1-2 air units were present at any base at any single point in time - thus minimizing "good targets" for Moses 1000 plane bomber raids.

I built a 2:1 ratio of Tony to Tojo ... if I had it to do again, I would probably make them more like 1:1. The Moses game was my first (and only) PBEM with PDU on.



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RE: Yes, once again Tojo V Tony - 12/7/2008 6:59:17 PM   
herwin

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

Harry,

I just have a question about the 90 Exp vs 30 Exp (Allied vs Japanese ) 5:1 exchange ratio. Surely though that would be skewed by the reality that in a squadron of Allies flying Spits you might have 10 x 90 Exp guys, 4 x 70 Exp guys and 2 x 50 Exp guys and in any run-in with the Japanese losses would tend to be concentrated in the 2 x 50 Exp guys.

I don't question the overall thrust of the exchange ratio correlation with experience but just wonder if such an effect was looked for ( and noticeable ) in the work you did ?  I have read about it anecdotally numerous times in relation to aerial warfare, tanks, etc etc etc and think it could be a bit of a confounder to the ratio you found.


The original report was in Morse and Kimball, Methods of Operations Research. I later confirmed it more broadly.

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RE: Yes, once again Tojo V Tony - 12/7/2008 9:36:16 PM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12523
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rominet

quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

This is not a question, but rather and observation. Now that I am into 10/42 in my AI game I have noticed that the Tojo has well out performed the Tony. I find the Tony to be a shockingly fragile plane (even relative to other fragile IJ planes). Anyone else finding the same results? I had invested in twice as many Tony factories as I did Tojos. I'm regretting that decision.


I have made many tests in order to see differences between Tojo and Tony but it was in CHS 155.
As all mods don't have the same plane's statistics, tell me first which mod you are playing.
Or which stats do you have for these planes!!

I'm playing a stock scenario.

As it's the AI I'm still on the offensive, so less of a need for bomber interceptors. I agree that Tojos are better against fighters. Having it to do over again I would have 1:1 Tojos to Tonys.

I just got a shock as I just sent Tojos and Tonys on a sweep over Ledo where they encountered an equal number of Chinese fighters. I lost 5 Tonys!!! for 3 damaged Chinese planes. The Tojos failed to engage.

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RE: Yes, once again Tojo V Tony - 12/8/2008 2:23:43 PM   
rominet


Posts: 523
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From: Paris
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quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005


quote:

ORIGINAL: rominet

quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

This is not a question, but rather and observation. Now that I am into 10/42 in my AI game I have noticed that the Tojo has well out performed the Tony. I find the Tony to be a shockingly fragile plane (even relative to other fragile IJ planes). Anyone else finding the same results? I had invested in twice as many Tony factories as I did Tojos. I'm regretting that decision.


I have made many tests in order to see differences between Tojo and Tony but it was in CHS 155.
As all mods don't have the same plane's statistics, tell me first which mod you are playing.
Or which stats do you have for these planes!!

I'm playing a stock scenario.

As it's the AI I'm still on the offensive, so less of a need for bomber interceptors. I agree that Tojos are better against fighters. Having it to do over again I would have 1:1 Tojos to Tonys.

I just got a shock as I just sent Tojos and Tonys on a sweep over Ledo where they encountered an equal number of Chinese fighters. I lost 5 Tonys!!! for 3 damaged Chinese planes. The Tojos failed to engage.



Hi

i think you shouln't make a generalty from only one case.
I made many dogfight test and i appears that when there is a big "dishomogeneity"
in pilot's experience in the same group, there is also a big dishomogeneity" in results.
For example, with Tojo against Corsair, with the same quantity of planes, i have had 6 Tojo lost vs 1 Corsair, and the following test , 0 Tojo vs 3 Corsair.

In stock, Tony and Tojo have the same manuever (32) but the Tojo is slighly faster.
On the other hand, the Tony has better weapons and durability.
So, it confirms what has been previously said: against fighter, Tojo should be a little bit better.
Against bombers, Tony is better.
However, the Tojo has a very good climb rate. So, more Tojo will be able to intercept
very high altitude (20000 and more) ennemy raids.
I don't speak of the number of interceptors saw in the combat animation but rather the
number of fighters making REALLY the interception.
That means that there will be more casualties (bombers and fighters) with Tojo than with
Tony at high altitude.

< Message edited by rominet -- 12/8/2008 2:24:36 PM >

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RE: Yes, once again Tojo V Tony - 12/8/2008 3:02:40 PM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12523
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rominet

quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

I'm playing a stock scenario.

As it's the AI I'm still on the offensive, so less of a need for bomber interceptors. I agree that Tojos are better against fighters. Having it to do over again I would have 1:1 Tojos to Tonys.

I just got a shock as I just sent Tojos and Tonys on a sweep over Ledo where they encountered an equal number of Chinese fighters. I lost 5 Tonys!!! for 3 damaged Chinese planes. The Tojos failed to engage.



Hi

i think you shouln't make a generalty from only one case.
I made many dogfight test and i appears that when there is a big "dishomogeneity"
in pilot's experience in the same group, there is also a big dishomogeneity" in results.
For example, with Tojo against Corsair, with the same quantity of planes, i have had 6 Tojo lost vs 1 Corsair, and the following test , 0 Tojo vs 3 Corsair.

In stock, Tony and Tojo have the same manuever (32) but the Tojo is slighly faster.
On the other hand, the Tony has better weapons and durability.
So, it confirms what has been previously said: against fighter, Tojo should be a little bit better.
Against bombers, Tony is better.
However, the Tojo has a very good climb rate. So, more Tojo will be able to intercept
very high altitude (20000 and more) ennemy raids.
I don't speak of the number of interceptors saw in the combat animation but rather the
number of fighters making REALLY the interception.
That means that there will be more casualties (bombers and fighters) with Tojo than with
Tony at high altitude.

I agree rominet that 1 example is not a good basis for judgement.

What I did not mention is that I had just checked my combat air losses and I have lost 10 times more Tonys than I have Tojos. Granted I have twice as many Tonys as I do Tojos. Still, losses have been unacceptably high.

It's interesting that you mention altitude. I've been trying to figure out why losses are high. My pilot skill for IJA fighter units is typicall about 72 for the unit as a whole and as you point out the plane statistics are almost equal. I've been thinking about altitude. Perhaps the engagements are occuring at an altitude that requires my fighters to climb. The Tojo will definitely out climb the Tony.

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RE: Yes, once again Tojo V Tony - 12/8/2008 4:49:52 PM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
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From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		I don't know that exp is over-rated, so much that ammo isn't a consideration.

Even the best aces, who did make their ammo count, would be hard pressed to score 5 kills in a single sorty.  However in WitP, aces just keep shooting, and shooting, and shooting...

-F-

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RE: Yes, once again Tojo V Tony - 12/8/2008 5:54:13 PM   
rominet


Posts: 523
Joined: 10/23/2007
From: Paris
Status: offline 		Yes, ammo is a real problem in this game.
It is well known that the Zero has only 60 shells per 20mm gun
and during war, the pilot were especially using their 7.7mm guns.

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RE: Yes, once again Tojo V Tony - 12/8/2008 6:06:22 PM   
Shark7


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rominet

Yes, ammo is a real problem in this game.
It is well known that the Zero has only 60 shells per 20mm gun
and during war, the pilot were especially using their 7.7mm guns.


That is the main reason that fighter pilots are taught to fire in short conrtrolled bursts rather than just laying on the trigger. Ammo will always be the biggest limiting factor in a dogfight, you only have a finite amount. The better your gunnery, the more you get out of it.

When it comes down to it, the real test of a good fighter is how it acts as a weapons platform. Is it stable enough to allow the most efficient use of its ammo? None of this is modeled in WiTP.

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RE: Yes, once again Tojo V Tony - 12/8/2008 6:15:09 PM   
herwin

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7


quote:

ORIGINAL: rominet

Yes, ammo is a real problem in this game.
It is well known that the Zero has only 60 shells per 20mm gun
and during war, the pilot were especially using their 7.7mm guns.


That is the main reason that fighter pilots are taught to fire in short conrtrolled bursts rather than just laying on the trigger. Ammo will always be the biggest limiting factor in a dogfight, you only have a finite amount. The better your gunnery, the more you get out of it.

When it comes down to it, the real test of a good fighter is how it acts as a weapons platform. Is it stable enough to allow the most efficient use of its ammo? None of this is modeled in WiTP.


You don't want your fighter design to be stable. That means it will prefer to not manoeuvre...

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RE: Yes, once again Tojo V Tony - 12/8/2008 11:19:16 PM   
Shark7


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From: The Big Nowhere
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quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7


quote:

ORIGINAL: rominet

Yes, ammo is a real problem in this game.
It is well known that the Zero has only 60 shells per 20mm gun
and during war, the pilot were especially using their 7.7mm guns.


That is the main reason that fighter pilots are taught to fire in short conrtrolled bursts rather than just laying on the trigger. Ammo will always be the biggest limiting factor in a dogfight, you only have a finite amount. The better your gunnery, the more you get out of it.

When it comes down to it, the real test of a good fighter is how it acts as a weapons platform. Is it stable enough to allow the most efficient use of its ammo? None of this is modeled in WiTP.


You don't want your fighter design to be stable. That means it will prefer to not manoeuvre...


A stable weapons platform is not necessarily a stable/unmanuevreable fighter though. Take the P-38 for example. It is a very stable weapons platform, and it is decently manuverable. The P-38 does have the advantage of counter-rotating propellors though, so it take out the need to fight the centrifugal force of the engine.

What you want in a fighter is something stable enough to allow good shots with the weapons, and manuverable enough to get those weapons on target. It ends up being a compromise in the end.

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RE: Yes, once again Tojo V Tony - 12/9/2008 5:23:21 AM   
Q-Ball


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Status: offline 		One overlooked factor in this debate is production paths. The two planes are close, and having both is good, but I would produce more Tojos. Why?

1. The TOJO uses the NAKAJIMA engine. This engine is useful for more than just Tojos. The TONY, on the other hand, uses the Kawasaki Engine. Once you finish with the Ki-61c (in most versions), then you are at a dead-end with those engines; you can't use the rest in your pool, and you have to convert the factories. Even in 1942, you have to manage Kawa engine production more carefully than NAKA.
2. The TOJO factories, in most versions, Auto-Upgrade to the FRANK. That is useful. The TONYs, on the other hand, upgrade to the Ki-100; a nice plane, but if you have the Frank, why do you need it? The answer is you don't. If you plan on playing into 1944, invest in TOJO.

That's my 2 Yen anyway.

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RE: Yes, once again Tojo V Tony - 12/10/2008 2:19:52 AM   
Coach Z

 

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From: New York
Status: offline 		I am finding more succes with my Tonys then my Tojos in my game vs. Floyd G. While initially my group of Tojos that are the early prototype group gave a good account of themselves in Burma vs the LB-30 Liberators; I am seeing greater succes with the Tony versus all types of Allied planes. But then again several of my Tojo Sentais keep going on strike in Burma and China [i.e. refusing/declining to fly escort or CAP]. Why this happened I have no clue it seems to be something that happens every month to me for a week in these theaters.

I think I prefer the heavier armament and 1 hex longer range of the Tonys.


< Message edited by Coach Z -- 12/10/2008 2:21:06 AM >

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RE: Yes, once again Tojo V Tony - 12/10/2008 3:00:08 PM   
hosho


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From: zagreb, croatia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball


2. The TOJO factories, in most versions, Auto-Upgrade to the FRANK. That is useful. The TONYs, on the other hand, upgrade to the Ki-100; a nice plane, but if you have the Frank, why do you need it? The answer is you don't. If you plan on playing into 1944, invest in TOJO.

That's my 2 Yen anyway.


? japanese player needs all fighters one can get in this game and ki-100 is a heck of a fighter. in my game against the ai I produced hordes of franks but found out that ki-100 is an valuable asset. In my opinion ki-100 was better than the frank because it could twist and turn almost as good as oscar and still had the speed to dive with the hellcat. in game terms k-100 had better results in fighting usn fighters than the frank ( both flown by hi exp pilots).
i always produce more tonys that tojos ( however, I don´t claim that this is the right way to go, just my 2 HRK :- )


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RE: Yes, once again Tojo V Tony - 12/10/2008 5:19:08 PM   
niceguy2005


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

One overlooked factor in this debate is production paths. The two planes are close, and having both is good, but I would produce more Tojos. Why?

1. The TOJO uses the NAKAJIMA engine. This engine is useful for more than just Tojos. The TONY, on the other hand, uses the Kawasaki Engine. Once you finish with the Ki-61c (in most versions), then you are at a dead-end with those engines; you can't use the rest in your pool, and you have to convert the factories. Even in 1942, you have to manage Kawa engine production more carefully than NAKA.
2. The TOJO factories, in most versions, Auto-Upgrade to the FRANK. That is useful. The TONYs, on the other hand, upgrade to the Ki-100; a nice plane, but if you have the Frank, why do you need it? The answer is you don't. If you plan on playing into 1944, invest in TOJO.

That's my 2 Yen anyway.

I'm still very new to the Japanese production system, but IMO the fact that the Tojo takes the Kawasaki can be pretty easily handled. It does take a little planning to make sure the right order of magnitude of engines are produced. IMHO though the most severe shortage for Japan is decent pilots. Any reasonable production changes that has an impact on saving pilots is worth it.

I'm new to playing Japan, but so far, against the AI, the greater allied threat is fighters, not bombers. The endless waves of Kittyhawks, Hurricanes, P-39s and P-40s that the AI throws at you attrites the fighter groups. This is why I lean toward to Tojo at this stage of the war. I'm losing about 5 times as many Tonys as I am Tojos in air to air combat. Bomber intercept is less critical for me than shooting down allied fighters and getting my pilots home at the end of the day. Right now though the war is being fought far away from strategic resource centers.

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RE: Yes, once again Tojo V Tony - 12/10/2008 9:04:51 PM   
engineer

 

Posts: 590
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Status: offline 		Q-Ball has talked about "moats" in the past to push Allied fighters at least five hexes away and that really really works for 1942.  You use that time to get your pilot training pipelines started up.

The other point is that you can actually win an attrition campaign against the Brit's in India against the AI.  The UK only gets 25 pilots per month so you actually attrit the Brit's if you can isolate them in India.  You need to find a base that is 3-5 hexes from the British bases and either has good support or plenty of capacity for CAP.  Put a unit on the base as bait and then place lots of your fighters (I'm using Zeros and Tojo's in September, 1942) on LR CAP.  Using the stock map, my ambush was Mannarguli (the base SE of Madras) with the UK forted up on Ceylon.  They sent massive raids to hit my hapless LCU, but my fighters were scything through the UK planes (only Fulmar's on escort) and shooting down 40 planes a day.  In short order the idiot AI had run through their supply of British pilots so when I was ready to attack Ceylon, the huge pile of Hurricanes and Spits on the island didn't have any reserve pilots. 

I heavily invested in R&D and got my Tojo production started in late May, 42 so my Oscar's didn't really have to face many decent Allied fighters before my pilots got into better air frames.  Tony's are just coming on stream and I want to get a squadron down to PM.  The AI is bombing that base with a really good group of B-17's from Cairns and my Zero interceptors are not getting very many kills.   

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RE: Yes, once again Tojo V Tony - 12/10/2008 9:39:20 PM   
Cathartes

 

Posts: 2155
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Status: offline 		In CHS 155, playing PBEM as Allies, I can tell you that I don't think there was a significant difference between the two.  The Tojo seemed pretty strong early on, but it has limited range is good mostly just for CAPing rear bases or defense.  Tojo has poor offensive range.  Tojo performed marginally better against bombers than Tonys.  From my perspective my opponent was smart to have both--Tojos for defense and climbing ability against bombers, and Tony's for general purpose and better offensive capability.  Once P-38G and Js show up in number and P-47s, neither were any longer relevant. Early on both fighters simply sliced through P-40Es, Hurricane IIbs, and most early war Allied fighters. Spit Vbs and Beaufighter VIs could fare better, but it all came down to pilot experience more than the fighters themselves (in the case of these two).

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Post #: 22
RE: Yes, once again Tojo V Tony - 12/10/2008 10:23:55 PM   
niceguy2005


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quote:

ORIGINAL: engineer

Q-Ball has talked about "moats" in the past to push Allied fighters at least five hexes away and that really really works for 1942.  You use that time to get your pilot training pipelines started up.

The other point is that you can actually win an attrition campaign against the Brit's in India against the AI.  The UK only gets 25 pilots per month so you actually attrit the Brit's if you can isolate them in India.  You need to find a base that is 3-5 hexes from the British bases and either has good support or plenty of capacity for CAP.  Put a unit on the base as bait and then place lots of your fighters (I'm using Zeros and Tojo's in September, 1942) on LR CAP.  Using the stock map, my ambush was Mannarguli (the base SE of Madras) with the UK forted up on Ceylon.  They sent massive raids to hit my hapless LCU, but my fighters were scything through the UK planes (only Fulmar's on escort) and shooting down 40 planes a day.  In short order the idiot AI had run through their supply of British pilots so when I was ready to attack Ceylon, the huge pile of Hurricanes and Spits on the island didn't have any reserve pilots. 

I heavily invested in R&D and got my Tojo production started in late May, 42 so my Oscar's didn't really have to face many decent Allied fighters before my pilots got into better air frames.  Tony's are just coming on stream and I want to get a squadron down to PM.  The AI is bombing that base with a really good group of B-17's from Cairns and my Zero interceptors are not getting very many kills.   

Based on my experience in this game that was a good move. I had to use Oscars heavily in Burma and Papua in June/July of 42 and paid a dear price for it. Getting even 2 Tojo fighter groups operational by June would have helped tremendously.

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RE: Yes, once again Tojo V Tony - 12/12/2008 7:14:56 AM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
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Status: offline 		In my 'Forlorn Hopes' AAR I really banked on the Tony and now regret that since I didn't think about the Tojo auto-convert to Frank as well as the engine issue.  Q-Ball really put me onto that little issue which I am now correcting in April 1944.  WAY LATE but this game is STILL a learning process for all of us!



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(in reply to niceguy2005)
Post #: 24
RE: Yes, once again Tojo V Tony - 12/12/2008 8:03:45 AM   
Nemo121


Posts: 5821
Joined: 2/6/2004
Status: offline 		The KEY point here is not whether one needs Tojos or Tonys ( this changes from mod to mod ) but that one needs to plan ahead in this game. Militarily I think you need to think at least 18 months ahead while economically you really need to be thinking at least 2 years ahead. Already in mid-42 I'm working my way toward engine and plane production totals which I'll require in mid-44.

E.g. In one game where I need 300 engines of a specific type I already have almost 1200 engines of that type available ( and I'm working toward a total build of some 2,000 engines of that type some 6 months down the road.). At present over one third of my total engine production is for plane types I amn't even producing yet but will be producing in 6 to 12 months time.

(in reply to John 3rd)
Post #: 25
RE: Yes, once again Tojo V Tony - 12/12/2008 2:50:03 PM   
Miller


Posts: 2226
Joined: 9/14/2004
From: Ashington, England.
Status: offline 		Tony every time for me. The Tojo could not live with Allied fighters in my last Jap PBEM game.

(in reply to Nemo121)
Post #: 26
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