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A First Impression from a JA Veteran - 12/6/2008 6:20:55 PM

Shin

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Joined: 12/6/2008
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Well, I love the turn based tactical style of game especially the Jagged Alliance, Hammer & Anvil, Silent Storm, style game -- It's one of my favorite types of games in a world of FPSes which I don't care for generally.

So I was overjoyed when I found out about Jagged Edge.

My first impressions -- The player creation is great, of course we've seen it before and it's great to see it like this again. The psychological profile, the statistics, the doctor/trainer/repair roles. It's what we've always liked and it's fun to tinker with. I spent a good deal of time just enjoying seeing what kind of psychological profiles I could get out of answering the questionnaires differently.

The gameplay is hard, very hard on the medium level. Grenades will take you out, and they will take you out one shot permanently in the beginning. If someone gets a chance to throw a grenade, you may suddenly have a dead mercenary or team, no second chances! I don't know how much of a deal body armor will make later in the game but it better make a difference! Some games I like to play ironman, and a game that's impossible to play without saving/reloading all the time is a badly designed game.

It's interesting that sneaking is automatic on a crouch, I expected a 'stealth mode' and to have integrated like that means we won't be running stealthed ever. Fortunately the crouched mode isn't so slow as to bother me, so it's a don't mind situation.

Right now I'm rethinking my initial three person sniper team, and thinking of getting a huge bunch of low quality cheapo mercenaries to see me through the beginnings, so that if some of them die, big whoop, as long as numero uno pulls through until we get better gear OK.

The manual is good but could've used more info about interacting with people and some of the basic stuff that I think was left to players who've played this genre before to figure out, if you haven't a lot of little things might get past you. There's definitely room for a strategy guide here.

My biggest complaint in this game is the camera. It zooms in too close, and doesn't zoom out far enough for strategic decisions. I can't make it zoom at an angle. Worst of all, when set to move to events which of course you want to know what's going on with the NPCs shooting it out, it always zooms in again -- so you're constantly zooming out insufficiently and trying to figure out where everything is on the camera. Many times people've thrown thrown grenades and I have no idea where they were from, when if I just had a little strategic zoom out I would've at least had an idea of the scene. Dying because your camera's clunky when the game is already this hard is a big problem, that fortunately a patch can fix. So let's see it!

The weaponry and upgrades look interesting, a right click brings open the weapon to place the upgrades in -- but is this intuitive for a new player? Did I miss the instruction on this somewhere? A tutorial for this game really would've been nice or at least more instructions in the manual. A FAQ for this stuff will have to do.

I haven't played long enough to see of the mercenaries personalities come out and if there's a good deal of banter and humor, which is what really makes these games work.

So my first impression so far is that this game is pretty rough around the edges, it has the potential for a hit or a miss, and just playing a few hours isn't going to tell me which it is. We'll have to see!

Post #: 1

RE: A First Impression from a JA Veteran - 12/6/2008 9:01:58 PM

ShadoWarrior

Posts: 164
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From: Florida space coast
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13-16 APs to drop stuff on the ground is pretty extreme, and makes emptying containers (for sector autolooting) something you don't want to do until after the battle is over and you are back in real-time mode.

(in reply to Shin)

Post #: 2

RE: A First Impression from a JA Veteran - 12/6/2008 10:38:31 PM

SlickWilhelm

Posts: 1854
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From: Rochester, MN
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The first time I tried to talk to the Officer in the northern sector, I had my garand in my pack and therefore wasn't armed(well, not obviously armed). I got to within about ten feet of him when it switched to combat mode. Needless to say, I died real quick. I was surprised that this happened, because I have a wisdom of 80 and was going to try to bribe them. I didn't even get to try to bribe them.

The 2nd attempt, I had my mercs go more slowly and carefully. By the time we got up near the jeep, the fight had begun between the soldiers and the marauders. I don't know what the difference is between a soldier and a marauder, but they were fighting each other, and both showed up as bad guy targets for my team.

The combat is pretty good, although you are correct about the camera. It's difficult to get it panned just right at certain times.

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RE: A First Impression from a JA Veteran - 12/6/2008 10:51:27 PM

Erik Rutins

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The best way to initiate a conversation is to start it at a longer range. By the time you get in close, they're already suspicious of you in my experience. Once you see them, see if you can start talking to them. Approach closer only until talking works, no closer is needed.

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Post #: 4

RE: A First Impression from a JA Veteran - 12/6/2008 11:33:02 PM

SlickWilhelm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

The best way to initiate a conversation is to start it at a longer range. By the time you get in close, they're already suspicious of you in my experience. Once you see them, see if you can start talking to them. Approach closer only until talking works, no closer is needed.

Erik, are you referring to tactical mode? I tried starting the conversation early, but when I clicked the talk icon on his head, my character starting walking up to him instead of talking from a distance. Is there more than one way to initiate a conversation?

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Post #: 5

RE: A First Impression from a JA Veteran - 12/8/2008 12:18:05 AM

CowGod

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I am another hard veteran of JA2 and I had been waiting for this game to come out for a very very long time!

In my own oppinion but there are a few things that really need to be adjusted in the next patch. First of that camera is really annoying! I have to scroll all the time and never able to get an idea of the exact area. The conversations suck up big time but I can live with that. The map system is JA2 was a far better deal. Additionally and most importantly.....where the heck are IVAN - SHADOW - MAGIG and the rest of the team??? how could anyone make a sequel of JA2 without adding at least some of the most played characters in turnbased strategy gaming history?????

Apart from all this the game is good but with the mentioned adjustments it would be in the EXCELLENT GAME list like JA2 rather than stay behind in the GOOD GAME list considering that its the sequel.

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Post #: 6

RE: A First Impression from a JA Veteran - 12/8/2008 1:14:24 AM

CowGod

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And something i still can't figure out. Can you sell stuff in this game or am i missing something?

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Post #: 7

RE: A First Impression from a JA Veteran - 12/8/2008 1:25:47 AM

milkweg

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Joined: 7/23/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CowGod

I am another hard veteran of JA2 and I had been waiting for this game to come out for a very very long time!

In my own oppinion but there are a few things that really need to be adjusted in the next patch. First of that camera is really annoying! I have to scroll all the time and never able to get an idea of the exact area. The conversations suck up big time but I can live with that. The map system is JA2 was a far better deal. Additionally and most importantly.....where the heck are IVAN - SHADOW - MAGIG and the rest of the team??? how could anyone make a sequel of JA2 without adding at least some of the most played characters in turnbased strategy gaming history?????

Apart from all this the game is good but with the mentioned adjustments it would be in the EXCELLENT GAME list like JA2 rather than stay behind in the GOOD GAME list considering that its the sequel.

Directly copying characters from JA2 or JA (miss Tex as he wasn't in JA2 even) would be a CP infringement. Search through the other posts in this forum on how to change the camera. I used the values in that mod and the camera is much better now.

(in reply to CowGod)

Post #: 8

RE: A First Impression from a JA Veteran - 12/8/2008 1:36:18 AM

Shin

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AFAIK this isn't 'Jagged Alliance 3' and there is even one of those in the works though that project's been so quiet I haven't heard if it's really still alive?

This is more like 'Hammer & Anvil 2' honestly with mercs, that's the feel of it. Not quite the same thing.

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Post #: 9

RE: A First Impression from a JA Veteran - 12/8/2008 2:30:47 AM

ShadoWarrior

Posts: 164
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From: Florida space coast
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Actually, this used to be the official JA3D, before the Russian development studio had their JA license yanked. The developers had a difference of opinion with the publishers over design and content. The devs went off their own way and they had to rename everything to avoid infringing on the JA2 IP. They found a new (Russian) money source, er, publisher and they continued to work on the game until they released it. I'm beginning to see why the JA copyright owners didn't like the direction the developers were taking the game, and why they decided to go with another dev studio and completely restart the JA3 project (which is still in the works).

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Post #: 10

RE: A First Impression from a JA Veteran - 12/8/2008 3:56:57 AM

CowGod

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So this is not the actual sequel???????

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Post #: 11

RE: A First Impression from a JA Veteran - 12/8/2008 4:13:06 AM

ShadoWarrior

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From: Florida space coast
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No.

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Post #: 12

RE: A First Impression from a JA Veteran - 12/8/2008 4:13:32 AM

Shin

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Well that clears up a lot! Interesting.

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Post #: 13

RE: A First Impression from a JA Veteran - 12/8/2008 10:26:53 PM

Tactics

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From: USA
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Which to buy? This $29 one or the other?

Jagged Alliance 2 for $10?

It sounds like this $29 version needs a patch and a mod to be decent.

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Post #: 14

RE: A First Impression from a JA Veteran - 12/8/2008 10:50:04 PM

CowGod

Posts: 44
Joined: 12/7/2008
Status: offline

This game has some real issues!!!!

The computer seems to cheat as he keeps throwing granades at me from twice the distance i can!

Also, i have a huge loadout of weapons but ammo is nowhere to be found! is there some weapons shop somewhere to sell and buy stuff???

And what about my financial situation? there is no finaces screen!!! so how am i supposed to know what i have and what i'm spending?

Anyway .... up till now this game is a disappointment. Especially knowing that the only reason why it is so bad is because of some missing options and an unbalanced AI. Have they even tried this game before putting it for sale? ....i wonder!

patch it and do it fast!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Post #: 15

RE: A First Impression from a JA Veteran - 12/8/2008 11:05:29 PM

Hard Sarge

Posts: 22741
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From: garfield hts ohio usa
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your info on money is on the Strat map (right click where it shows your money amount)

how many days are you into the game ? the online store starts adding stuff as soon as the 2nd day starts, most of the other ammo can be found during battles, on the maps, make sure to look for any crates you can open, lots of goodies are in there (as a bonus I would think)

(I had a M-79 before I had ammo for it, I had a Fancy Russian Sniper rifle before I had ammo for it, use what you got on hand, and store the rest, when you get ammo, bring it out)

you can mod what you think is wrong, or pick up the mod someone else already made to help with the Grenade tossers

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Post #: 16

RE: A First Impression from a JA Veteran - 12/8/2008 11:48:14 PM

Hard Sarge

Posts: 22741
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From: garfield hts ohio usa
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now stuff that upsets me, is that they don't even know what these weapons are, or what they are for, a blooper or others of that type, don't matter if you can see the target or not, it is not a derict fire weapon

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Post #: 17

RE: A First Impression from a JA Veteran - 12/9/2008 9:03:44 AM

CowGod

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So where was it written that you have to right click on the money to get that chart? Or you just figured it out? :)

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Post #: 18

RE: A First Impression from a JA Veteran - 12/9/2008 9:05:42 AM

Hard Sarge

Posts: 22741
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From: garfield hts ohio usa
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sorry, not a right click, just a mouse over

(found it while playing)

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Post #: 19

RE: A First Impression from a JA Veteran - 12/9/2008 9:21:08 AM

CowGod

Posts: 44
Joined: 12/7/2008
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So why is there a file in the game with all the merc names from ja2????? seems to me that something is a bit fishy!

quote:

ORIGINAL: milkweg

quote:

ORIGINAL: CowGod

I am another hard veteran of JA2 and I had been waiting for this game to come out for a very very long time!

In my own oppinion but there are a few things that really need to be adjusted in the next patch. First of that camera is really annoying! I have to scroll all the time and never able to get an idea of the exact area. The conversations suck up big time but I can live with that. The map system is JA2 was a far better deal. Additionally and most importantly.....where the heck are IVAN - SHADOW - MAGIG and the rest of the team??? how could anyone make a sequel of JA2 without adding at least some of the most played characters in turnbased strategy gaming history?????

Apart from all this the game is good but with the mentioned adjustments it would be in the EXCELLENT GAME list like JA2 rather than stay behind in the GOOD GAME list considering that its the sequel.

Directly copying characters from JA2 or JA (miss Tex as he wasn't in JA2 even) would be a CP infringement. Search through the other posts in this forum on how to change the camera. I used the values in that mod and the camera is much better now.

< Message edited by CowGod -- 12/9/2008 11:11:20 AM >

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Post #: 20

RE: A First Impression from a JA Veteran - 12/9/2008 9:21:52 AM

CowGod

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thanks dude:)

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Post #: 21

RE: A First Impression from a JA Veteran - 12/9/2008 5:36:26 PM

VassagoPT

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Joined: 12/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CowGod

So this is not the actual sequel???????

Well, officially it is not a Jagged Alliance sequel since some retard at Strategy First decided to pull the plug on the Jagged Alliance 3D project.

Technically THIS IS Jagged Alliance 3D, but since they don't have the franchise rights the name was changed to JAZZ for the russian version and later to Hired Guns: Jagged Edge for the EU and US versions, but the game is still the same.

Unfortunately you get a new 3D graphics engine and very few improvements, and in exchange you loose a lot of other original JA2 features and get a slightly worse gameplay (totally modable though).

This may not seam very appealing, but the fact is 9 years have passed since JA2 was 1st released and even the most hardcore fans can't keep playing the exact same game for that long, even considering all the mods available now...
So HG is the closest game to JA you have until 2010 when JA3 is released, and at least for me a "poor" JA is still much much better than no JA at all :)

(in reply to CowGod)

Post #: 22

RE: A First Impression from a JA Veteran - 12/9/2008 7:01:03 PM

CowGod

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Ok finally someone has put me in the picture! since i modded the game a bit it started to be quite pleasant, especially with the new camera settings. The enemy is super on nades but altough i istalled that patch. will se how it goes.

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Post #: 23

RE: A First Impression from a JA Veteran - 12/10/2008 9:11:05 PM

GODSPEED7

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Yes, I had the same issue about the Grenades, I've read in another post that's because the AI characters ALL have Strenght set to 100 [

] There is a file somewhere on this forum that 'patches' that issue..

Another perspective from a JA2 [UC, 1.13, Wildfire, etc..] and Brigade E5 Player...

I can't say this is a bad game, actually I find it has a more 'serious' combat system than Jagged Alliance 2 has. but what about Character interactions? it is... like most tactical russian games... inexistent. Because of the lack of funny comments or comments, I find this game is much more like Brigade E5 or 7.62mm. Too bad, 'cause that was a BIGGIE for JA series!

For the camera, once you change the settings, it ressembles Brigade E5 quite alot!
I do find it 'unsettling' to be able to purchase very good weapons from the start. I'm on day 3, I've went to the Safari, taken the Base "North" and finally the Crossroad; I can already buy an SVD and multiple versions of the new AK's.. Naturally, ammo seems to be somewhat of an issue in this game.

I find Hired Guns has a notch higher in realism vs. Jagged Alliance 2 [apart from the grenade problem].

What frustrated me the MOST was the false advertisment!

The game looks TOTALLY different on the behind of the box!

The box has screenshots of the game... but the game they show looks like what JA3 looks in the previews. All the names of former JA2 Characters are there... the inventory is a replica.. but when you play the game it looks completely different.

I do have to complain that I dislike how small everything looks.. especially that I play at 1920x1200... the inventory is tiny! I would like to see the details on Guns and to the changes [like adding accesories] on the pictures as well. Brigade E5 is my hero in the domain of Guns and Modifications!

This game almost looks like a mix of Jagged Alliance 2 and Brigade E5... It is good. But could be better if preperly moded

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Post #: 24

RE: A First Impression from a JA Veteran - 12/10/2008 9:40:24 PM

SlickWilhelm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GODSPEED7

I can't say this is a bad game, actually I find it has a more 'serious' combat system than Jagged Alliance 2 has. but what about Character interactions? it is... like most tactical russian games... inexistent. Because of the lack of funny comments or comments, I find this game is much more like Brigade E5 or 7.62mm. Too bad, 'cause that was a BIGGIE for JA series!

I do find it 'unsettling' to be able to purchase very good weapons from the start.

Completely agree with these two points. It appears that the development team tried to add a little humor, but failed. It's not within the same zipcode of JA2 in the humor dept. Ditto with the merc personalities. Some of the sound bites that the mercs in HG make when you click on them seem to have no point. For example, when I click on "Dagger", he often gives out a "huh-huh-huh" like some bad Jabba the Hut impersonator. Why even bother with stuff like this if you're not going to make it good?

You and I seem to be the only two that don't want to be able to have all the cool hardware at the beginning. I prefer the JA2 approach, where the mercs and the enemy all have smaller, less lethal weapons in the beginning, then the cool stuff gets added in gradually.

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Post #: 25

RE: A First Impression from a JA Veteran - 12/10/2008 9:41:26 PM

Erik Rutins

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Well, Taran is an idiot/goofball and Jabby is somewhat entertaining, from what I recall. I remember Arny being kind of amusing too. I will agree that there was more humor in JA2, but I think the developers did try to get some in, within the framework of a fairly serious subject.

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Post #: 26

RE: A First Impression from a JA Veteran - 12/11/2008 12:21:44 AM

milkweg

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CowGod

So why is there a file in the game with all the merc names from ja2????? seems to me that something is a bit fishy!

Nothing fishy, those are just leftovers from when it was going to be an official JA2 sequel. Strategy First owns the IP to JA and the developer and publisher split so they can't use the JA names now but could before.

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Post #: 27

RE: A First Impression from a JA Veteran - 12/11/2008 12:24:38 AM

milkweg

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I don't really care that much about the lack of good humor in HG. In JA2 they just said the same things over and over so it got tiring of hearing the same things said fairly quickly. At least in HG there is an option to squelch the character comments if it annoys you.

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Post #: 28

RE: A First Impression from a JA Veteran - 12/11/2008 1:11:48 AM

zhanga

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I agree with milkweg, the conversation in JA2 was repetitive and wasn't that funny either. In the original JA it was funnier when Ivan spoke in Russian only and had an air of annoyance about him. Most others with the exception of Fidel were bland characters. And besides, in a game like JA you really want a crack team of commandos and listening to incessant bitching and walking out gets old quickly.

In HG, Dragon is quite funny when he refers to his Kungfu constantly. When he misses the eaiest shots he'd say something like "This gun is useless, I'll use my Kungfu." Small bits like that that occassionally makes you chuckle I think is all you ned in a game like HG.

Fallout 1 and 2 are truely funny, but only if you are familiar with its cultural references. And it's an RPG without any of the tactical elements.

I think people are demanding way too much from a game like HG with a small production budget. Fallout 3 spend more money on self-promotion than HG would have for everything, and is a pile of steaming 3D console **** compared to it's predecessors with the depth of a car park puddle. Imaging if you apply the same level of critique to F3, you won't be requesting a mod, more like a rewrite.

Of course, I think HG can still be improved through taches and data modding, but overall I think the guys at Matrix Games and GFI have done a fantastic job.

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Post #: 29

RE: A First Impression from a JA Veteran - 12/11/2008 1:58:10 AM

GODSPEED7

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Slick Wilhelm

Completely agree with these two points. It appears that the development team tried to add a little humor, but failed. It's not within the same zipcode of JA2 in the humor dept. Ditto with the merc personalities. Some of the sound bites that the mercs in HG make when you click on them seem to have no point. For example, when I click on "Dagger", he often gives out a "huh-huh-huh" like some bad Jabba the Hut impersonator. Why even bother with stuff like this if you're not going to make it good?

You and I seem to be the only two that don't want to be able to have all the cool hardware at the beginning. I prefer the JA2 approach, where the mercs and the enemy all have smaller, less lethal weapons in the beginning, then the cool stuff gets added in gradually.

Yeah, Now I pretty much will probably never use the Pistols or Sub-Machineguns... I started the game with an MP5, then on the first map I picked up the Garand M1, from there on I have no other reason to touch a pistol or sub.. In JA2, I would try different pistols at the start... then I would use different types of Subs... It kept me hoping and made me eager for the big assault rifles. Unfortunately, now that I already have an SVD I am simply eager to have the ammo, but that eagerness isn't the same though.

quote:

ORIGINAL: zhanga

I agree with milkweg, the conversation in JA2 was repetitive and wasn't that funny either. In the original JA it was funnier when Ivan spoke in Russian only and had an air of annoyance about him. Most others with the exception of Fidel were bland characters. And besides, in a game like JA you really want a crack team of commandos and listening to incessant bitching and walking out gets old quickly.

In HG, Dragon is quite funny when he refers to his Kungfu constantly. When he misses the eaiest shots he'd say something like "This gun is useless, I'll use my Kungfu." Small bits like that that occassionally makes you chuckle I think is all you ned in a game like HG.

Fallout 1 and 2 are truely funny, but only if you are familiar with its cultural references. And it's an RPG without any of the tactical elements.

I think people are demanding way too much from a game like HG with a small production budget. Fallout 3 spend more money on self-promotion than HG would have for everything, and is a pile of steaming 3D console **** compared to it's predecessors with the depth of a car park puddle. Imaging if you apply the same level of critique to F3, you won't be requesting a mod, more like a rewrite.

Of course, I think HG can still be improved through taches and data modding, but overall I think the guys at Matrix Games and GFI have done a fantastic job.

I know it was repetitive, but JA2 was still very entertaining [no not all funny, but some of them we're simply hilarious! you should play it over again!], even Ira's 'annoying' voice gave her a certain charm, Dimitri's retardedness was aggravating. Flo's weakness was laughable... Igor's Russian Accent was plain neat, not to mention Ivan's english was, let's face it.. not english... And I am leaving many characters out. Whnen you try almost all the characters in the game you even stop noticing how repetitive it is. I think it brought the characters alive, made you detest some while loving others. And thats what I find lacks in this game.. when I would hire fox not only for her medic skills, but just for her innuendo and sexy voice, or Red for his Irish/Scottish accent, stats weren't the only factor.. in Hired Guns I only look at stats..

And in no way am I saying this isn't a good game, I have taken into account that this was on a smaller budget maybe and I really do still enjoy the game. As I've mentioned there are things that I prefer in this game over JA2, it's a give and take situation, JA2 has earned it's mighty reputation