Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

NO REBEL UNITS JUST ECONOMIC DAMAGE AND SUPPLY INTERDICTION

quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

From Torres Strait Force, Reg. A. Ball, ISBN 0-646-20749-0

(condensed)

Strength as of Jan 12, 1943:
(a) Company Group, 62nd Australian Infantry Battalion: “C” Company, 2 detachments of 3-inch mortars, 3 Light Combat Tanks (Marmon Harringtons), attached transport, signal, medical detachments.
(b) Battery “D”, 104th US AA Battalion (Separate)
(c) One Company N.E.I. comprising
· One MMG Platoon
· One LMG Platoon
· One Anti Tank Platoon
· One 60mm Platoon with 3 mortars
(d) R.A.A.F. Radio Installation Personnel
(e) Port Detachment “A”, US
(f) No. 26 Portable Hospital, US

There was also a Dutch civilian police unit that was assigned defensive responsibilities.

Following additional information is given concerning 1st N.E.I. Fusilier Company:

So many crew served weapons that there was no actual infantry strength (sounds a lot like the US Marine Defense Battalions).

Defense Plan lists detail assignments (only Dutch troops listed):

No. 1 Locality:
Three 37mm A/T guns
One 60mm Mortar detachment
One 30 Lewis L.M.G. section
N.E.I Police, less patrol details

No. 2 Locality:
One 37mm A/T section
One section with 2 .30 Brownings
One 60mm section
One .30 Lewis LMG section

No. 3 Locality:
One section with 2 .30 Brownings
“two” 60mm mortar detachment (note below)
One .30 Madson LMG section
One .50 Cal MG Section

Wendow:
N.E.I. police details will maintain a patrol at Wendow to operate North of Merauke River.

Note: The summary lists three N.E.I. 60mm Mortars. One section each is specified for No. 1 and No. 2 locality, plus “two” section in No. 3 locality. Either this is one actual section - #2 section – or the summary and detail are out of sync.


Of interest are the three Marmon Harrington light tanks. These were from Dutch orders that were not delivered prior to the fall of Java. A total of 54 CTLS model were enroute Java aboard five merchant ships when Java was lost (USAT Mapia, Dutch Bantam, Tabian, and Weltevreden). They diverted to Australia, and later shipments increased the total to 149. These were all the 2-man, 3-MG version. They were assigned to the US and Australian Army and were used for training and reconnaissance. Three Australian units went to Merauke and others were stationed at Thursday Island and Jacky Jacky (on the tip of the York Peninsula). When all of 62nd Bn arrived at Merauke, the 3 light tanks there were attached to 62nd Battalion’s Carrier Platoon.


I have also verified that 1st N.E.I. Fusilier Company is listed at Merauke for the entire length of the force assignment data: from November, 1941 thru June, 1945 inclusive. The list stops at June, 1945.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

OK as promised

Dutch Garrison of Java

1st, 2nd,4th,6th and Barisen Regts
Tjilitjap Indpt Garrison Bn on the West Coast
1 x Regt Cavalrie
1 x Ard Bn
1 x Indpt Ard Sqn

3 Coastal Gun Bns
2 AA bns

Plus various base forces and support units about 39,000 men

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Supply interdiction is just that no supply passses through the hex if under garrisoned as per stock

quote:

ORIGINAL: Harald Velemans

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

OK as promised

Dutch Garrison of Java

1st, 2nd,4th,6th and Barisen Regts
Tjilitjap Indpt Garrison Bn on the West Coast
1 x Regt Cavalrie
1 x Ard Bn
1 x Indpt Ard Sqn

3 Coastal Gun Bns
2 AA bns

Plus various base forces and support units about 39,000 men

How about this?

Java
KNIL order of Battle
as of February 28th, 1942

West Groep
Batavia-Tj.Priok Detachment (CD/AA)
1st KNIL Regiment
2nd KNIL Regiment
1st KNIL Cavalry Squadron
5th KNIL Cavalry Squadron
Afdeling Hubar
1st KNIL Howitzer Battalion
1st KNIL Mountain Artillery Battalion
1st Landstorm Battalion
4th Landstorm Battalion
Landstorm Soekaboemi
Milius Detachment

Groep Bandoeng
4th KNIL Regiment
Van Altena Detachment
3rd KNIL AA Battalion
2nd KNIL Mountain Artillery Battalion
2nd KNIL Field Artillery Battalion
2nd KNIL Cavalry Squadron
Mobiele Eenheid
Afdeling Ritman

IIe Divisie
Tjilatjap Detachment (Infantry unit + CD/AA)
Groep Zuid
Groep Madioen/Tjepoe
4th KNIL Cavalry Squadron
Lijfwacht Cavalry Squadron
Depot Cavalerie
1st KNIL Pioneer Company
3rd KNIL Pioneer Company

IIIe Divisie
6th KNIL Regiment
Marinebataljon
Bataljon Roodenburg
Madoera Detachment
Korps Prajoda (on Bali)
Artilleriecommando [Soerabaja] (CD/AA)
2nd Landstorm Battalion
3rd Landstorm Battalion
3rd KNIL Cavalry Squadron
1st KNIL Field Artillery Battalion
2nd KNIL Pioneer Company

This order of battle contains every regular, volunteer and landstorm unit that actually took some part in the fight.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Some of these are below the level of detail we incorporated or are included in the base force detatchments or the Regt groups - e.g. the arty regts

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Only the Lijfwacht Cavalry Squadron is seperately represented the other Cav Sqns for part of 1st Cav Regt

Mobiele is the Tank Bn we have at present

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

My only question is the Landstorm Bn's - are they like a home guard type unit ?

The base forces on Java have de facto a weak attached Infantry Bn that probably cover these units

Andy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Interesting I will have a look it might be worth stripping the garrison Bns out of the Base forces and haveing 1 - 4 Landstorm Bn's seperate I will think on it

Java starts at about 40,000 troops but after 2 or 3 months of mobilisation a number of units will end up stronger but not up to 80,000 men (although after Blackforce, B Sqn or the Hussars and the  British AA Regts it probably gets closer.

Andy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

OK home now and looking at scen again

Of the 5 KNIL Regts 2 begin overstrength with equivalnet to 120 Squads which is c 4 Bn's each the rest are 3 Bn's 

The independent Tjilatjap Bn has an attached company of CL-1936's
Coastal CD Bn's at Soerbaja and Batavia and Tjilatjap have 2 attached Bns of Militia (or 1 strong one) each

There are 6 Base Forces on Java (2 Split into 7 smaller base forces and 4 big ones) - total the base forces have about another 4 Bn's of Militia between them.

So in general I don't think Java is wrong.

The Militia if anything is a tad to strong

quote:

ORIGINAL: Harald Velemans

I want them into a formation as large as it was in 1942. Most of the KNIL units were of small size, battalion and less. Most of the units I have created for my mod are battalion-sized formations. The cavalry and pioneers are of company size though.

With AE I would like to give the KNIL the opportunity to reform its regiments into brigades, but that will mean that all other small units will have to be disbanded to fill out the new formation (I've read somewhere that it is possible to disband LCUs in AE).

But if one wants/needs to provide larger formations, why not simply drop the KNIL Regiments and create these ...

West Groep Mobile Force (regulars)
Batavia-Tandjong Priok Detachment (CD/AA/Landstorm/a few regulars)

Groep Bandoeng Mobile Force (regulars)
attach Landstorm/AA to Base Forces Buitenzorg/Bandoeng

IIe Divisie Mobile Force (regulars)
Tjilatjap Detachment (CD/AA/Landstorm/a few regulars)

IIIe Divisie Mobile Group (regulars)
Veiligheidsbezetting Soerabaja (CD/AA/Landstorm/Detachment Madoera)
Korps Prajoda (Bali)

All forces from the divisions were divided into mobile and immobile forces. Having a few mobile/immobile units will be more historical than having enlarged regiments. Even more since the various cavalry squadrons and artillery battalions where never combined into a larger formation (like a regiment), they were simply attached to the mobile groups.

..........

I don't want to offend anyone. Dutch/KNIL forces are really unimportant in comparison to the other belligerents forces. Sources on the KNIL are all written in dutch. The Niehorster OOB is fairly accurate, but not accurate enough to be a template for witp or AE.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

I will enjoy seeing your mod - but for now I am staying with what we have as I don't really want to redo the AI and I believe we are pretty close.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

I try to stay at Bn level for most forces unless I absoulutely have to going below Bn size causes issues.

Re disbanding units yes it is possible but will be difficult for the Dutch to do as you would need a base with 100,000 supply or the ability to get units to Sydney or Delhi - as Dutch units based on Java are more or less stuck there its hard to do

You do have the ability to combine units into larger units without disbanding them.

ANdy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Brigade upgrade probably can work actually.

Option 1
You can set the TOE of each Regt to upgrade to the enhanced TOE and change to a Bde on date X.

If you also set all the units amalgamating into it to disband on the same day that the upgrade happens then the devices returned to the pool from the disbanded units can be used to fill out the new TOE

Option 2
Set all the forces you want to combine into the Bde to be pre broken down sub units of the Bde and include as a reinformcment a special sub unit called say HQ X Bde with 10 support squads arriving on X Date.

The sub units will not be able to combine into the parent until the final sub unit arrives at which point any remaining sub units can combine into the Bde.

Lots of ways of doing what I think you want.

I do something similar with 3rd NZ Div (which is second only to 17th Indian Div) as being the most complicated LCU on map.

Andy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Harald Velemans

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Brigade upgrade probably can work actually.

Option 1
You can set the TOE of each Regt to upgrade to the enhanced TOE and change to a Bde on date X.

If you also set all the units amalgamating into it to disband on the same day that the upgrade happens then the devices returned to the pool from the disbanded units can be used to fill out the new TOE

YES CORRECT THATS THE FLAW BUT AS MOST OF THE UNITS THAT UPGRADE WOULD BE STUCK ON JAVA ANYWAY ITS LIMITED RISK

Option 2
Set all the forces you want to combine into the Bde to be pre broken down sub units of the Bde and include as a reinformcment a special sub unit called say HQ X Bde with 10 support squads arriving on X Date.

The sub units will not be able to combine into the parent until the final sub unit arrives at which point any remaining sub units can combine into the Bde.

NO IF A SUB UNIT IS DESTROYED IT DOES NOT PREVENT CONSOLIDATION - AT PRESENT 11TH INDIAN DIV HAS 5 SUB UNITS 3 BDES, 1 ARTY REGT AND AN A/T BATTERY

IF 4 OF SUB UNITS ARE DESTROYED 5TH CAN STILL BECOME DIV - BUT YOU NEED DEVICES TO FILL IT OUT AND MOST DEVICES ARE RESTRICTED

DUTCH/ BRITISH/ AUS/ NZ ALL HAVE LIMITED DEVICES - A PLAYER CAN IN AE CHOOSE TO REBUILD 9TH OR 11TH INDIAN OR 8TH AUSTRALIAN DIV BUT AFTER THEY PLAY ONE CAMPAIGN I SUSPECT MOST WILL CHOOSE NOT TO AS YOU NEED ALLTHE REPLACEMENTS YOU CAN GET - SQUAD DEVICES ARE IN SHORT SUPPLY USING 50% OF ALL INDIAN ARMY AND 90% OF ALL BRITISH SQUADS YOU GET IN 41/42 TO REBUILD ONE DIV MAKING THE REST OF THE ARMY FRAGILE IS NOT A GOOD CHOICE BUT IT IS ONE A PLAYER CAN MAKE - BIGGER FORCE BUT FRAGILE OR SMALLER FORCE BUT WITH ADEQUATE REPLACEMENTS

Lots of ways of doing what I think you want.

I do something similar with 3rd NZ Div (which is second only to 17th Indian Div) as being the most complicated LCU on map.

Andy

Thx Andy,

but I have still two questions.

If (option 1) the Regt is destroyed, the 'amalgating' units will disband nevertheless, won't they?
If (option 2) one 'sub unit' is destroyed, no combing will take place anymore, right?

I think - if I'll use a brigade-upgrade at all- I would prefer option 1, making the evacuation of small KNIL units obsolete ....

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

.....but for now I am staying with what we have as I don't really want to redo the AI.....

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

The AI will still use them but the AI is slot specific so if you add any units to unused slots you need to add them to an AI script or the AI will ignore them

quote:


So basically any LCU and Air Group you add over and above those we put into the new stock scenarios need to be added to an AI routine if its just strengthening and existing routine then its easy just add em onto the bottom of the list if its to do a new thing you will need to write a new AI script

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Re naval units it operates slightly differently you don't specify specific ships you specify the type of TF you want (or the AI decides if its a non combat TF) and the AI will attempt to form it from available ship in port.

So more ships means in general stronger TF's so you can add more ships without having to rewrite the AI I specifiy a lot of surface TF's as being small TF's and the acceptable force strength being minimum - if you add 30 extra DD's to the Japanese ORBAT its likely they will ens up in use lifting those TF's closer to normal or max strength.

An exception would be if you add lots of extra carriers to the Japanese early on - I have been carefull to only to tell KB to be in one place or when I split it to only be doing so for a specific period of time in support of specific operations.

So the AI will assume it only needs X x CV's if you add one or 2 that wont be an issue because the AI will use them to beef up some of its light CV TF's - add another 6 and its likely the AI will keep 2 - 4 sitting in Osaka until it loses one which is probably just as well as fuel would become an issue otherwise.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Harald Velemans

Hi Andy,

will there be new suffixes for the LCUs, like Territorial Command, Detachment or Company?

Harald