Anti-tank Guns

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Anti-tank Guns - 12/19/2008 2:39:13 AM

wolf4

Posts: 44
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Born Canada, now in Italy.
Status: offline

At the moment I am currently engaged in a battle on the Russian front. I am playing the Russians. I thought I would play a retreating tactic from the very first move of the game, to surprise my opponent. My idea was to retreat back to form a line of resistance near the towns and concentrate more on producing anti-tank guns instead of tanks.

Later I thought it was probably a mistake relying on anti-tank guns so I changed back to the same old pattern of churning out tanks. Don't worry I did have anti-tank guns with infantry to protect them; I did read about that.

My original idea was to produce anti-tank guns in large numbers. They were cheaper to produce and their purpose was to knock out tanks so I thought why not try this tactic. But one day whilst waiting for my opponent to send me his move, I tried out a little test game with myself to see how anti-tank guns fared against medium tanks. I was not very happy. It was not a thorough and detailed test because it was getting late and I did it in a hurry, but the anti-tank guns were not that particularly impressive. That's when I realized the mistake and switched back to producing tanks.

So, my questions are the following: how good are anti-tank guns against tanks? How should they be properly used to be effective against a massed tank and infantry attack?

Ideas will be welcomed and thanks for replying.

wolf4

Post #: 1

RE: Anti-tank Guns - 12/19/2008 4:03:41 AM

Shambling Strider

Posts: 123
Joined: 1/16/2008
From: Canada
Status: offline

Statistics of bazookas and tanks are appearing to me to be better for tank killing. Cost of bazookas is really attractive and that's why I usually use them as Soviets in Eastern campaign. Multiple tanks (4 Medium and/or heavy) with rifles and 3 to 5 bazookas could become a great tank killer unit with some experience. AT-guns must be tracted and then are more costly to be fully effective. Some Bazookas in a Conscripts horde (with some MGs too!) is usually a good weapon against enemy tanks.

When I'm using AT-guns, its usually only as a reinforcement of an infantry unit already counting on rifles, MGs and Bazookas. Guns are then very useful in a static defensive position protecting bridge, town or fortification. But Bazookas well surrounded by numerous other light or heavy infantry units seems generally better to me than At-guns.

Hope it will help.

Have fun!

_____________________________

War is patience.

(in reply to wolf4)

Post #: 2

RE: Anti-tank Guns - 12/19/2008 3:17:02 PM

wolf4

Posts: 44
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Born Canada, now in Italy.
Status: offline

Shambling Strider, many thanks for your information, very useful to know. I will definitely follow some of your ideas when I finish with the Russian campaign, which will soon end as I am about to be slaughtered.

Really, I forgot to mention that I am at the moment using the Barbarossa campaign chosen from the Scenario Bank at the Advanced Tactics Community Website. In that particular game there are no bazookas or heavy machine guns available to choose.

This game has different types of units - no bazookas.

But when I get back to the original Advanced Tactics format then I will try out your ideas because it sounds good to me. Thanks for the tip.

So your from Canada. I was born there. I am in Italy at the moment; I have been here for about three years. In April I shall return to England. Anyway tell my wolf friends in Canada I miss the good old "howling" times we had together.

wolf4

(in reply to Shambling Strider)

Post #: 3

RE: Anti-tank Guns - 12/19/2008 5:58:46 PM

Twotribes

Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
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I believe you have limited production so could research them at the cost of not producing some troops.

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Post #: 4

RE: Anti-tank Guns - 12/19/2008 6:28:42 PM

wolf4

Posts: 44
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Born Canada, now in Italy.
Status: offline

Twotribes, thanks for your message. But I don't quite know what you mean. Care to expand on that.

wolf4

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Post #: 5

RE: Anti-tank Guns - 12/20/2008 2:42:09 AM

Twotribes

Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
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Can you do any production in the scenario? If you can then you can make Political points and then use them for research like any other game.

If there is no production where do your replacements, reinforcements and such come from? Where do you get PP to make new units?

(in reply to wolf4)

Post #: 6

RE: Anti-tank Guns - 12/20/2008 3:31:52 AM

wolf4

Posts: 44
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Born Canada, now in Italy.
Status: offline

Thanks Twotribes, I got your meaning now. Yes I could do research on them and I have already done so. Again I don't know how effective they would be but obviously better.

The question would then be at what cost? Already my opponent has level 2 infantry and I'm still at level 1 infantry because I had put them into research points for anti-tank guns to level 2.

It's a question of balance. Whilst my anti-tank guns have level 2, my opponent's infantry are at level 2 and they are in vast numbers. It's all a matter of timing, I guess, when or when not to research to a higher level and depending on the situation presented.

Anyway, thanks for the info.

wolf4

(in reply to Twotribes)

Post #: 7

RE: Anti-tank Guns - 12/20/2008 9:12:02 AM

seille

Posts: 2134
Joined: 6/19/2007
From: Germany
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I like AT guns in defense. In case you know you�ll be 100% on defense you should produce AT guns instead of tanks.
It is a static defense, but you can add some mobility by a horse per gun.
I like to put this defense behind rivers or at the bottlenecks the enemy forces can�t pass.
Put the AT guns plus infantry into cities or fortifications for a better effect and use enough infantry
to protect the guns. Let�s say 40 or 50 depending on attackers strength.

And you should not compare the basic AT gun with a medium tank since the medium tank is already
a higher tech level you should fight with AT gun II. Or a higher number of AT guns in the defending hex.
In my PBEM games i used max four AT guns per unit.

Bazookas didn�t do a good job for me in my russia 1941 games even in fortifications. They die too fast
in artillery and direct attacks compared to the second line AT guns.

(in reply to wolf4)

Post #: 8

RE: Anti-tank Guns - 12/20/2008 11:30:53 AM

wolf4

Posts: 44
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Born Canada, now in Italy.
Status: offline

seille, thank you for your thoughts on anti-tank guns. I had about 6 anti-tank guns (level II) per unit with about 30-40 infantry, just wanted to make an impact.

What you say seems sensible to me. Unfortunately, I haven't yet been able to put my anti-tank guns to the test because my opponent has smashed through my defences on my left flank, no need to face my anti-guns now. As you said, they are purely defensive.

Once again thanks for the info.

(in reply to seille)

Post #: 9

RE: Anti-tank Guns - 12/20/2008 11:51:24 AM

seille

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Joined: 6/19/2007
From: Germany
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The kex is to place them on good terrain, trying to prevent the enemy from attacking with concentric bonus
and protect the guns with enough infantry.
Make sure the guns can fire long enough (in combat rounds) to have an impact before the opponent breaks thru.

If the opponent can attack from 3 directions, with 120 infantry +8 tanks you�ll have no chance even with
40 infantry to protect the guns cause your enemy will simply break your infantry screen and knock out the guns very fast.
The AT guns can�t fire long enough then to take out the tanks.
In such a case you�ll need 50-60 infantry + your six AT guns. To maximize the effect use fortifications.

As i said use horses to increase the mobility of the AT gun units. It�s cheap and you�ll have footspeed again when you have one
horse per AT gun. This way it�s harder for the enemy to surround you and cut you off and your defense is more flexible.

(in reply to wolf4)

Post #: 10

RE: Anti-tank Guns - 12/20/2008 12:32:13 PM

wolf4

Posts: 44
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Born Canada, now in Italy.
Status: offline

Again seille, very useful tips you gave me; thank you for that. Actually I did have trucks included with the infantry to make the AT guns mobile. But as you pointed out, its cheaper with horses. Wish I could use huskey dogs instead.

The added information on longer combat rounds was definitely something I never thought about or took into account. That was the key. It made me think that that is where perhaps the AT guns would begin to take effect, once they have more time to pound at the tanks.

Perhaps the game mechanics do take this into consideration. A very important point for me. The longer the AT guns survive each round of attacks the more they will knock out more tanks than the tanks will be able to retaliate.

Thanks for that information seille.

(in reply to seille)

Post #: 11