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RE: Small Ship, Big War

 
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RE: Small Ship, Big War - 12/18/2008 11:52:22 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Bravo!  Grood planning produces gratifying results that lead to great narrative.

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 12/19/2008 12:44:18 AM >

(in reply to Menser)
Post #: 3901
RE: Small Ship, Big War - 12/19/2008 12:05:43 AM   
thegreatwent


Posts: 3011
Joined: 8/24/2004
From: Denver, CO
Status: offline 		Yes, but can they get away.

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(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 3902
RE: Small Ship, Big War - 12/19/2008 1:13:54 AM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thegreatwent

Yes, but can they get away.



Yea..., somewhere out there is a very upset TF 58 looking for blood and lots of it...

(in reply to thegreatwent)
Post #: 3903
RE: Small Ship, Big War - 12/19/2008 1:51:09 AM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline 		Nice to see our hero ship do so well in battle.

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Distant Worlds Fan

'When in doubt...attack!'

(in reply to Menser)
Post #: 3904
RE: Small Ship, Big War - 12/19/2008 2:26:02 AM   
Marc gto

 

Posts: 229
Joined: 9/25/2000
From: Batavia,ohio,usa
Status: offline 		nice work

(in reply to Menser)
Post #: 3905
RE: Small Ship, Big War - 12/19/2008 7:23:19 AM   
CV Zuikaku

 

Posts: 442
Joined: 12/18/2008
From: Legrad, Croatia
Status: offline 		Impressive planning!
Impressive execution!
Just hope that they will all be safe and far enough when the next morning come.
Hope you provided some CAP for the TFs next morning...

(in reply to Cuttlefish)
Post #: 3906
RE: Small Ship, Big War - 12/19/2008 9:26:12 AM   
tocaff


Posts: 4781
Joined: 10/12/2006
From: USA now in Brasil
Status: offline 		I've got a gut feeling that all of the damaged IJN vessels limping home will be tagged by the very angry USN CVs as they try to intercept said ships.  I wonder if the option of another port for refueling and rearming might've been an idea worth consideration with a later return to Japan?

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Todd

I never thought that doing an AAR would be so time consuming and difficult.
www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2080768

(in reply to CV Zuikaku)
Post #: 3907
RE: Small Ship, Big War - 12/19/2008 9:47:03 AM   
Alikchi2

 

Posts: 1785
Joined: 5/14/2004
Status: offline 		I think we also have to credit Nikademus with this result. If this game wasn't running under Nik Mod, there'd be no point to even contemplate this plan.

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(in reply to tocaff)
Post #: 3908
RE: Small Ship, Big War - 12/19/2008 1:22:34 PM   
kaleun

 

Posts: 5145
Joined: 5/29/2002
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		I just read this battle. Impressive narrative!

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Appear at places to which he must hasten; move swiftly where he does not expect you.
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(in reply to Alikchi2)
Post #: 3909
RE: Small Ship, Big War - 12/19/2008 4:28:16 PM   
mdiehl

 

Posts: 5998
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline 		I'd find the results more credible if FD (US Mark IV) seemed to make a difference. Still, outstanding plan and execution, Cuttlefish!

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Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 3910
RE: Small Ship, Big War - 12/19/2008 5:54:15 PM   
vettim89


Posts: 3615
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Toledo, Ohio
Status: offline 		As Arlo Guthrie would say: "We have 8x10 color glossy photographs of the approach, the egress, the getaway ..." Wait, something's missing here

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"We have met the enemy and they are ours" - Commodore O.H. Perry

(in reply to mdiehl)
Post #: 3911
RE: Small Ship, Big War - 12/19/2008 6:52:31 PM   
Cuttlefish

 

Posts: 2454
Joined: 1/24/2007
From: Oregon, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alikchi

I think we also have to credit Nikademus with this result. If this game wasn't running under Nik Mod, there'd be no point to even contemplate this plan.


I think this is a perceptive comment. Nik Mod had a big on the carrier portion of the battle; it allowed more Japanese bombers to get through than would otherwise be the case (though it did increase flak losses) by reducing the air-to-air losses and it made fewer Allied fighters available for CAP. Fighter groups set to a high percentage of CAP in this mod quickly suffer a fair amount of disablement.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

I'd find the results more credible if FD (US Mark IV) seemed to make a difference. Still, outstanding plan and execution, Cuttlefish!


I can't disagree with you. Note that I attributed part of the reason for Ise's victory over California to a lucky early hit knocking out her fire control. The job of translating game results into something approaching a reasonable narrative is occasionally a challenging one.

One of the things the battle did show, I think, was the weight the game gives to crew experience. Hibiki had a daytime experience rating of 82 going into the fight, probably at least 20 points higher than any of her opponents, and was just a terror.

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

CF--When the smoke clears and results get tabulated in Tokyo, could you please provide the best Japanese 'intelligence' as to the losses suffered by the Allies in all phases of your attack?


It will have to be a rough estimate - Allied ships, especially DEs and AKs, kept sinking throughout the next week. But best Japanese estimates are 2 CVs, 1 BB, 1 CA, 8 to 10 DDs, 10 to 12 DEs, and 12 to 15 AKs and APs. Many more ships were damaged enough to be sent home, including 2 CVs, 1 CVE, 2 BBs, and about half a dozen CAs and CLs. Allied DEs seemed to be everywhere and while they were easily sunk they were suprisingly annoying opponents, especially in large numbers.


My opponent, wolffpack, deserves a big nod here. This battle was actually fought twice. In the first iteration the carrier battle went about the same, or even a bit better for Japan, but the game decided all my surface groups needed to refuel their DDs on their way in to Iwo Jima, with the result that they never got there and were all subsequently butchered. Wolffpack thought my plan was too good to come to that kind of end and proposed running the turn again. I made an adjustment and the results were what we have just seen.

I think that showed a lot of class. From the beginning he has been more about having fun and making our contest interesting than about winning or losing. I hope we can get some comments from him about the game when it's all over.



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(in reply to Alikchi2)
Post #: 3912
RE: Small Ship, Big War - 12/19/2008 7:27:00 PM   
tocaff


Posts: 4781
Joined: 10/12/2006
From: USA now in Brasil
Status: offline 		It's indeed a lucky player who has an opponent who enjoys the game for the game's sake, win lose or draw.  

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Todd

I never thought that doing an AAR would be so time consuming and difficult.
www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2080768

(in reply to Cuttlefish)
Post #: 3913
RE: Small Ship, Big War - 12/19/2008 7:54:47 PM   
CV Zuikaku

 

Posts: 442
Joined: 12/18/2008
From: Legrad, Croatia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

I'd find the results more credible if FD (US Mark IV) seemed to make a difference. Still, outstanding plan and execution, Cuttlefish!


You just can't sit down and enjoy the show, don't you?

(in reply to mdiehl)
Post #: 3914
RE: Small Ship, Big War - 12/19/2008 8:24:54 PM   
Capt. Harlock


Posts: 5358
Joined: 9/15/2001
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline
quote:

Gone are most of the supplies for the men in the transports and for those already ashore. The American troops are too strong to be dislodged by the Japanese defenders but their offensive capacity has been crippled. It will take weeks to replace the destroyed supplies and in the meantime the battle for Iwo Jima will turn into a bloody stalemate.

Against all odds Yamamoto’s plan has succeeded.


BRAVO!! And there must be some red faces at Allied HQ . . .

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Civil war? What does that mean? Is there any foreign war? Isn't every war fought between men, between brothers?

--Victor Hugo

(in reply to Cuttlefish)
Post #: 3915
RE: Small Ship, Big War - 12/19/2008 10:45:03 PM   
DW

 

Posts: 161
Joined: 2/14/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

I'd find the results more credible if FD (US Mark IV) seemed to make a difference. Still, outstanding plan and execution, Cuttlefish!


I'm sorry...

FD (US Mark IV)?

What are you referring to?

(in reply to mdiehl)
Post #: 3916
RE: Small Ship, Big War - 12/19/2008 10:51:37 PM   
Alikchi2

 

Posts: 1785
Joined: 5/14/2004
Status: offline 		I'm just guessing, but I'm thinking FD stands for fighter direction. IE, mdiehl doesn't believe that the American CAP could have been caught out of position.

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Post #: 3917
RE: Small Ship, Big War - 12/19/2008 10:57:56 PM   
mdiehl

 

Posts: 5998
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline 		Sorry. Should have said "Mark 4."

Centimetric band anti-aircraft radar with design elements (in the upgraded Mark 12 version in wide use by 1943) that allowed accurate and fast tracking of low flying a.c. (such as torpedo bombers) that were by 1943 linked into most US ships fire control systems, allowing for the very very accurate placement of 5"L38 proximity fused shells even in very low-visibility conditions.

I also wonder where was the effect of Mark 8 radar.

All that was in re a remark about the "mod." File. Discussion should continue somewhere else if it is to continue. CF's AAR is a great read and this subject and remarks about the mod are off-topic here.

_____________________________

Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?

(in reply to DW)
Post #: 3918
RE: Small Ship, Big War - 12/20/2008 12:24:17 AM   
AcePylut


Posts: 1494
Joined: 3/19/2004
Status: offline
quote:

My opponent, wolffpack, deserves a big nod here. This battle was actually fought twice. In the first iteration the carrier battle went about the same, or even a bit better for Japan, but the game decided all my surface groups needed to refuel their DDs on their way in to Iwo Jima, with the result that they never got there and were all subsequently butchered. Wolffpack thought my plan was too good to come to that kind of end and proposed running the turn again. I made an adjustment and the results were what we have just seen.

I think that showed a lot of class. From the beginning he has been more about having fun and making our contest interesting than about winning or losing. I hope we can get some comments from him about the game when it's all over.


Jus wanna say... .kudo's to wolfpack!


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(in reply to mdiehl)
Post #: 3919
RE: Small Ship, Big War - 12/20/2008 3:03:22 AM   
Cribtop


Posts: 3890
Joined: 8/10/2008
From: Lone Star Nation
Status: offline 		Wolfpack has more than once shown himself a worthy adversary, both tactically and in terms of bushido.

What adjustments did you make to prevent Lt. AI from re-fueling?  Controlling that annoying "feature" would make my life easier.

(in reply to AcePylut)
Post #: 3920
RE: Small Ship, Big War - 12/20/2008 4:08:31 AM   
Heeward


Posts: 343
Joined: 1/27/2003
From: Lacey Washington
Status: offline 		Sad to see the Wolfpack to fall into the Halsey trap, and not provide a adequate surface combat combat TF guard his invasion. Do you think it will halt the landing of additional allied troops?


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The Wake

(in reply to Cribtop)
Post #: 3921
RE: Small Ship, Big War - 12/20/2008 4:25:36 AM   
DW

 

Posts: 161
Joined: 2/14/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

Sorry. Should have said "Mark 4."

Centimetric band anti-aircraft radar with design elements (in the upgraded Mark 12 version in wide use by 1943) that allowed accurate and fast tracking of low flying a.c. (such as torpedo bombers) that were by 1943 linked into most US ships fire control systems, allowing for the very very accurate placement of 5"L38 proximity fused shells even in very low-visibility conditions.



I understand now.

Thanks.




(in reply to mdiehl)
Post #: 3922
RE: Small Ship, Big War - 12/20/2008 5:19:11 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Heeward

Sad to see the Wolfpack to fall into the Halsey trap, and not provide a adequate surface combat combat TF guard his invasion. Do you think it will halt the landing of additional allied troops?



Probably not, what CF pulled is a 1 hit wonder. Unlikely his opponant will fall for it twice. It was a brilliant strategic and tactical move no doubt, but not one that can be easily repeated. Highly likely Wolfpack would not fall for the 'bait' the second time and leave his carriers with his transports.


_____________________________

Distant Worlds Fan

'When in doubt...attack!'

(in reply to Heeward)
Post #: 3923
RE: Small Ship, Big War - 12/20/2008 5:41:32 PM   
Heeward


Posts: 343
Joined: 1/27/2003
From: Lacey Washington
Status: offline 		This type of engagement plan seems fairly common in the late war AAR's I have been reading recently - the IJN air arm becomes ineffective, the CV's are used as bait and then the IJN surface forces engage a allied invasion force.

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The Wake

(in reply to Shark7)
Post #: 3924
RE: Small Ship, Big War - 12/21/2008 3:26:21 AM   
Cuttlefish

 

Posts: 2454
Joined: 1/24/2007
From: Oregon, USA
Status: offline 		November 9, 1944

Location: 60 miles southeast of Tori Shima
Course: North-northeast
Attached to: TF 35
Mission: Surface Combat
System Damage: 3
Float Damage: 0
Fires: 0
Fuel: 248

Orders: Engage enemy forces at Iwo Jima

---

Morning finds Japanese ships strung out over a wide swath of ocean leading from Iwo Jima back towards Tokyo. Many of the ships are damaged and limping along at the best speed they can manage. That vengeful Allied forces are even now seeking them they have no doubt.

Captain Ishii is back on the bridge before dawn, having gotten only a couple of hours of sleep. Lieutenant Miharu is there, staring out to the east where the sky is already growing light. Ishii checks the ship’s position and merely grunts.

The rest of the task force is somewhere out ahead. Admiral Tashiro transferred his flag to Musashi sometime during the night and, leaving two damaged and two healthy destroyers to shepherd the limping battleship, has taken the rest of the task force on ahead. Ishii imagines that they should be nearly to Tokyo by now.

It was a logical decision. Yamato is in no danger of sinking but the torpedo damage suffered in the battle meant the big battleship could no longer make good speed.

They continue towards Tokyo while anxiously watching the skies. It does not take long for enemy scout planes to find them. Carrier planes, coming from the south. Where these carriers were yesterday and why they did not interfere in the battle no one has any idea, but they are here now. It will not be long before the first air strikes find them.

“Do you think we have a chance, sir?” Lieutenant Miharu asks him in a low voice. He seems calm.

Ishii shakes his head. “Almost none at all,” he says. “But we can’t complain, Exec. We did the job.” Lieutenant Miharu smiles.

“Yes sir, we did,” he says.

---

It is some hours later. A destroyer moves slowly through water slick with oil and studded with debris. Every now and then the destroyer slows and sailors haul a pathetic, oil-smeared survivor out of the water.

The ship is Hibiki. A mile off another destroyer, this one trailing smoke, is engaged in similar work. They are the only vessels visible.

Hibiki’s decks are covered with men plucked from the water. Her decks are slick with oil and blood and a good portion of her crew is following medic Nakagawa’s direction in trying to care for the refugees. Every now and then someone looks up at the sky but there is really no point. Even if the enemy comes back the anti-aircraft ammunition is all but gone.

Vanished are Yamato and two of the other destroyers. It was hard to watch the pride of the fleet go under, some of her guns still firing. Lieutenant Sugiyura wept openly and he was not the only one. Now all they can do is pick up as many men as they can and go home.

“We haven’t even been scratched,” mutters Lieutenant Kuwaki in a low voice. “How did we survive?” He almost looks as if he wished they hadn’t. It is understandable; for the Japanese it is sometimes easier to die than to survive.

“Fate, maybe,” says Captain Ishii. “Or it could be that damned snake, for all I know. But we aren’t done with this war yet.” It occurs to Lieutenant Miharu that the captain looks tired, tired and older than he did even a few weeks ago.

“Take us home, Exec,” Ishii tells him. “I will be in my cabin.” He slowly leaves the bridge. Lieutenant Miharu continues the search for survivors for a while longer and then turns the ship towards Tokyo.



(in reply to Cuttlefish)
Post #: 3925
RE: Small Ship, Big War - 12/21/2008 5:06:12 AM   
vettim89


Posts: 3615
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Toledo, Ohio
Status: offline 		Okay, now even I am beginning to beleive in the snake! BTW, Cuttlefish, you did not mention any interference in the raid by USN CVE's - what happened?

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"We have met the enemy and they are ours" - Commodore O.H. Perry

(in reply to Cuttlefish)
Post #: 3926
RE: Small Ship, Big War - 12/21/2008 5:50:08 AM   
cantona2


Posts: 3749
Joined: 5/21/2007
From: Gibraltar
Status: offline 		I do hope CF will give us the details

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1966 was a great year for English Football...Eric was born


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Post #: 3927
RE: Small Ship, Big War - 12/21/2008 6:01:56 AM   
Capt. Harlock


Posts: 5358
Joined: 9/15/2001
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline
quote:

Sad to see the Wolfpack to fall into the Halsey trap, and not provide a adequate surface combat combat TF guard his invasion.


I personally prefer to use Baltimore and Cleveland class cruisers as CV escorts, freeing the battlewagons for SC duties. (The CV's can move faster that way, too, unless you use Iowa-class only.) But in Wolffpack's defense, losing CV's to a SCTF is a much bigger blow than losing transports. There's no such thing as complete safety in warfare, and I can't condemn him for guarding his highest-value assets with Massachusetts and others.

_____________________________

Civil war? What does that mean? Is there any foreign war? Isn't every war fought between men, between brothers?

--Victor Hugo

(in reply to Heeward)
Post #: 3928
RE: Small Ship, Big War - 12/21/2008 6:07:41 AM   
Capt. Harlock


Posts: 5358
Joined: 9/15/2001
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline
quote:

Vanished are Yamato and two of the other destroyers. It was hard to watch the pride of the fleet go under, some of her guns still firing. Lieutenant Sugiyura wept openly and he was not the only one. Now all they can do is pick up as many men as they can and go home.

“We haven’t even been scratched,” mutters Lieutenant Kuwaki in a low voice. “How did we survive?”


And for a second time, Hibiki emerges as the only undamaged ship of a group. I wonder if she'll come to be seen as a curse to the rest of the IJN?

_____________________________

Civil war? What does that mean? Is there any foreign war? Isn't every war fought between men, between brothers?

--Victor Hugo

(in reply to Cuttlefish)
Post #: 3929
RE: Small Ship, Big War - 12/21/2008 6:21:22 AM   
Alikchi2

 

Posts: 1785
Joined: 5/14/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt. Harlock


And for a second time, Hibiki emerges as the only undamaged ship of a group. I wonder if she'll come to be seen as a curse to the rest of the IJN?


Hibiki is the new Shigure!

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(in reply to Capt. Harlock)
Post #: 3930
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