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Really, really need an Accuracy indicator

 
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Really, really need an Accuracy indicator - 12/25/2008 6:51:30 AM   
fbs

 

Posts: 1048
Joined: 12/25/2008
Status: offline 		Beforehand, I apologize: I'm frustrated with the lack of feedback the game gives on tactical mode.

It goes like this: my weapons have a range rating, what seems fair except that when I'm firing I don't know the range because there is no indicator of distance -- ergo I'm left with sheer guess of how far is far enough for a fair shot at the enemy. Then my mercs have an Accuracy rating, and that is fair, but my weapons only have a "Low Accuracy"/"High Accuracy" text and that is useless because that when I'm shooting I have no indication whatsoever of the difficulty of that shot, so I don't know what effect the "Low Accuracy" flag had.

Here's my problem: say my merc with 75 accuracy is aiming +2 and is shooting at a dude with that is some unknown distance away, using a 50m "Low Accuracy" Colt 45. In this scenario I have absolutely no idea whatsoever if the shot is likely to hit or not. Then the shot misses - I don't know if I need to aim more, let them come closer, use a weapon with more range or use a weapon that is not "Low Accuracy". Of course, I know if that if I did some of that, then something would change, but as I have no information of how much of a change that would be, I'm completely in the dark. So I try, try and try, and try to remember what worked and not.

But I have to remember that multiplied by 6 because I have 6 mercs to keep track of, and the result is an INCREDIBLY frustrating game that attempts to make it difficult through the artifact of giving no information to the player -- oh no, just let them dumb players figure out what's better after having their squads wiped out 50 times in a row.

Look, I loved X-COM, Jagged Alliance and Jagged Alliance II. I had a blast with them. If I remember it right, JA/JA2 had a little number that showed the final accuracy of each shot, and with that I could juggle items, strategies and guesses around and find out what was effective without having to die. That was a GREAT game. This one only makes me hit my head in the wall in frustration, and that's because the little accuracy number from JA2 is gone.

One stupid, insensitive, disrespectful and arbitrary design decision makes the game nearly unplayable to me. Did the designers ever talk to players before committing this atrocity? I don't mind the bland NPCs, grammatical mistakes, odd dialogs or the vague storyline, but someone give me back my goddamn on-screen accuracy rating, for crying out loud!!

Thank you,
fbs.
Post #: 1
RE: Really, really need an Accuracy indicator - 12/25/2008 3:37:35 PM   
Franky007


Posts: 133
Joined: 3/10/2005
Status: offline 		Agreed 

Can this be modded ?

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Post #: 2
RE: Really, really need an Accuracy indicator - 12/25/2008 4:34:35 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		I would think that would be part of the code, it is not a data file or a peace of artwork

but for what it is worth, I agree also




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RE: Really, really need an Accuracy indicator - 12/26/2008 12:13:22 AM   
fbs

 

Posts: 1048
Joined: 12/25/2008
Status: offline 		Once again, my apologies for the tone: I was really frustrated and upset.

For what it's worth, one more reason for bringing back JA's accuracy indicator: if I move the camera behind my merc to see what I'm shooting at, the vegetation in the line of sight becomes transparent and it may be hard to figure out why you're missing so much a shot that should be easy. I was appalled this afternoon for my best merc missing a dude a dozen times, only to find out that there was an invisible shrub in the way.

Imho the indicator could be the color of the aiming ring, or something like that. That way it would preserve the mystery of the game inner workings.

Thank you,
fbs.

(in reply to Hard Sarge)
Post #: 4
RE: Really, really need an Accuracy indicator - 12/26/2008 12:30:01 AM   
RinoaHeartily

 

Posts: 19
Joined: 12/15/2008
Status: offline 		fully agreed!!!! hope it can be added on the next major update.

Btw Merry X-mas everyone!!!!

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Post #: 5
RE: Really, really need an Accuracy indicator - 12/26/2008 12:38:42 AM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		how about this one, why can't Bizon or Rob see any targets ? what is blocking there LOS ?






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Post #: 6
RE: Really, really need an Accuracy indicator - 12/26/2008 12:46:50 AM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		or why can't morah see her targets ?




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Post #: 7
RE: Really, really need an Accuracy indicator - 12/26/2008 12:47:32 AM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		not that it mattered






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Post #: 8
RE: Really, really need an Accuracy indicator - 12/26/2008 1:18:42 AM   
RinoaHeartily

 

Posts: 19
Joined: 12/15/2008
Status: offline 		could it be the rifle doesn't have the range.. having saying that, i do notice sometimes the game tends to screw up when it comes to targetting.

(in reply to Hard Sarge)
Post #: 9
RE: Really, really need an Accuracy indicator - 12/26/2008 1:22:53 AM   
Harvester

 

Posts: 24
Joined: 8/6/2006
Status: offline 		I'm glad I'm not the only one finding the LOS a little wonky.  I spent a good bit of this afternoon playing and spent most of that time trying to figure out why my guys could not see what was right in front of them.  Hard Sarge's screen shots show exactly the type of situations I kept running into.

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Post #: 10
RE: Really, really need an Accuracy indicator - 12/26/2008 1:58:58 AM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		sorry, think I put these in the wrong post, since he was asking for info on the target sight, oops sorry about that

but yea, LOS is odd

Morah, got 4 kills on targets she could not see

now, towers are a royal pain, you can see them, but can't target them too well

but when it works, it is nice






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Post #: 11
RE: Really, really need an Accuracy indicator - 12/26/2008 9:26:55 AM   
R@S

 

Posts: 46
Joined: 12/11/2008
Status: offline 		I might be completely wrong about this but isn't it night-time? At night you might have a clear LOS but you can't see them because of the darkness. Mebbe this is why you can hit these targets more often than blocked ones. Thats my theory.

EDIT: Even if the night cycle has been badly implemented it's very useful when ambushing the enemy. I usually start killing an enemy far out on a flank and since they cant see you they run to their fallen friend. If you've positioned your mercs right they line up in a row ready to be picked off. When using silenced weapons they wont find you for some time and you can decimate their numbers a lot before they find you. Great tactic

Once you've played though the game you get the feel for the range of your weapons and you can guess pretty accurately if a shot will hit. This might be a problem if you're new to the genre but if you have the patience it will pay off in the long run.

< Message edited by R@S -- 12/26/2008 9:59:49 AM >

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Post #: 12
RE: Really, really need an Accuracy indicator - 12/26/2008 12:02:28 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: R@S

I might be completely wrong about this but isn't it night-time? At night you might have a clear LOS but you can't see them because of the darkness. Mebbe this is why you can hit these targets more often than blocked ones. Thats my theory.

Why would it be night time ? (dark background is normal) battle started at 15:56

EDIT: Even if the night cycle has been badly implemented it's very useful when ambushing the enemy. I usually start killing an enemy far out on a flank and since they cant see you they run to their fallen friend. If you've positioned your mercs right they line up in a row ready to be picked off. When using silenced weapons they wont find you for some time and you can decimate their numbers a lot before they find you. Great tactic

Once you've played though the game you get the feel for the range of your weapons and you can guess pretty accurately if a shot will hit. This might be a problem if you're new to the genre but if you have the patience it will pay off in the long run.

roger and agree, only hassle is, most times you are upgrading your weapons as fast as you can, so most times, you do not really get a chance to get used to them

another issue is what does range mean ? , 90, is that feet, yards or meters ?, or is it pixals, squares or hexes ? what does the range really mean

and really, how does a Scope, laser or C Sight, extend the range of a rifle ?, a rifle has the same range as before these are added, it is just easier to hit what is aimmed at with them attached

(and if I miss my guess, a Laser and C Sight are really short to mid range, fire from the hip, helpers, while a scope is long range Aimming help

also, why is the scope a 4X (know it was Russian WWII standard) and is meant for a best of all area scope, can be used close and used for simi deep shots, I had a 3by9 Bushnel, some Barretts use a 20X, when you have the range to reach out and touch someone, you need to be able to see them



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Post #: 13
RE: Really, really need an Accuracy indicator - 12/26/2008 1:19:22 PM   
R@S

 

Posts: 46
Joined: 12/11/2008
Status: offline 		Sorry Hard Sarge, didn't mean to sound like an a-hole;) LOS is a bit "wonky"(nice word Harvester) but not that big a problem for me, I adapted my tactics. And since the latest patch the camera can be tilted so that you can see your LOS down a slope and don't have to waste a shot trying to find out.

On a side note, the MM1 grenade launcher has a very nice feature: burst fire! Just discovered that by accident but it surely made my day

(in reply to Hard Sarge)
Post #: 14
RE: Really, really need an Accuracy indicator - 12/26/2008 1:34:31 PM   
Reinforce


Posts: 197
Joined: 12/11/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

another issue is what does range mean ? , 90, is that feet, yards or meters ?, or is it pixals, squares or hexes ? what does the range really mean



Range is in meters based on whats said in the files here and there. I think the low range on weapons is a balance thing more then anything.

Much Love,
Reinforce

(in reply to Hard Sarge)
Post #: 15
RE: Really, really need an Accuracy indicator - 12/26/2008 1:36:34 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		until it hits at your feet, or throws 3 rounds off map (ammo cost too much to be throwing it away)

had my blooper man blow his foot off (I restarted that one, that was dumb)

oh, i didn't think you sounded like one, I was asking why you thought it, I went back in to make sure it was a afternoon battle (was what I thought I had remembered) (a shame, as then it would at least make a little sense)

pretty bad when a run way has LOS hassles on it, "most" are pretty flat

I like the one where the bad guy is lieing on the ground and your guy is standing on top of him and still can't see him




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Post #: 16
RE: Really, really need an Accuracy indicator - 12/26/2008 1:56:40 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Reinforce


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

another issue is what does range mean ? , 90, is that feet, yards or meters ?, or is it pixals, squares or hexes ? what does the range really mean



Range is in meters based on whats said in the files here and there. I think the low range on weapons is a balance thing more then anything.

Much Love,
Reinforce


sure, but I think they trying to say Eff range, over weapon range, but, that is still based on person and on training, now I rated as High Expert with a pistol, I had a 357 4 inch barrel that I could put 6 rounds into the bull at 100 yards, a "normal" trooper couldn't do it, hell, normal range pactice would put the fear of God into you, watching the guys who carried pistols fire at targets (firing on the 25 yard line, had the guy next to me, put a round into the middle of my 15 yard stand (you had a little stand to put your pistol on at the 15 yard line, fire that station, then move back to the 25 yard line) had another one put a round about 5 feet into the ground in front of me, and a Lt put a round though the awning over his head when I told him I thought my sear pin was cracked on my .45

But

95 yards for a M-16 ? that is hip fire range ?, we trained out to 500 yards with that, matches fired that to 1000 yards, 1200 for the M-14 (you want to see some pretty groups fired at 1200 yards, the M-14 will blow your mind,and that is with Iron sights)

(just in case, I was the Pit NCO on a fireing range for about 6 months (TYD) I ran the pits (targets), used to drive them nuts, I'd be out on the range with my Bow, the MPs hated the weekends)



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Post #: 17
RE: Really, really need an Accuracy indicator - 12/26/2008 3:30:11 PM   
rx178

 

Posts: 12
Joined: 12/23/2008
Status: offline 		  About LOS 
Some weapon have limited sight angel, such as Sniper rifle or weapon attach with scope upgrade. I see in weapon.xml file, some weapon have only 30 degree sight angel when it had scope. Anyway most of weapons have 150 angel. I guess, it explain why some of merc who carrier sniper rifle or weapon attach with scope can see only 1 enemy despite another merc who use SMG but can see all 4-6 enemies.

< Message edited by rx178 -- 12/26/2008 3:32:55 PM >

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Post #: 18
RE: Really, really need an Accuracy indicator - 12/26/2008 3:39:38 PM   
Reinforce


Posts: 197
Joined: 12/11/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge


quote:

ORIGINAL: Reinforce


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

another issue is what does range mean ? , 90, is that feet, yards or meters ?, or is it pixals, squares or hexes ? what does the range really mean



Range is in meters based on whats said in the files here and there. I think the low range on weapons is a balance thing more then anything.

Much Love,
Reinforce


sure, but I think they trying to say Eff range, over weapon range, but, that is still based on person and on training, now I rated as High Expert with a pistol, I had a 357 4 inch barrel that I could put 6 rounds into the bull at 100 yards, a "normal" trooper couldn't do it, hell, normal range pactice would put the fear of God into you, watching the guys who carried pistols fire at targets (firing on the 25 yard line, had the guy next to me, put a round into the middle of my 15 yard stand (you had a little stand to put your pistol on at the 15 yard line, fire that station, then move back to the 25 yard line) had another one put a round about 5 feet into the ground in front of me, and a Lt put a round though the awning over his head when I told him I thought my sear pin was cracked on my .45

But

95 yards for a M-16 ? that is hip fire range ?, we trained out to 500 yards with that, matches fired that to 1000 yards, 1200 for the M-14 (you want to see some pretty groups fired at 1200 yards, the M-14 will blow your mind,and that is with Iron sights)

(just in case, I was the Pit NCO on a fireing range for about 6 months (TYD) I ran the pits (targets), used to drive them nuts, I'd be out on the range with my Bow, the MPs hated the weekends)





Like I said I'm sure it was done for a game balance reason. Nothing more, If you wanna try this game with real world ranges change the weapon files. But I'll warn you you'll break whatever balance this game has. Becouse it is after all just a game and they balanced the ranges for the game world there in. The maps are small they don't want every weapon shooting across them. If I could hit everything with my handgun becouse it's real range is like 200-300 whats the point in changeing to a rifle in the game then? I mean most of the maps are around 500 meters across max. You want all the rifles to shoot across the map all the time? Remember too how little fun it will be for the player when 20-40 tangos with ARs cream you becouse your only at 10% of there weapons max range and not 50-60% so they have a 95% chance to nail all your mercs. I tried setting weapons to the realish ranges based on what web sites listed them at and belive me it's not fun. I'll leave the game as a game and the ranges in this are fair.

Also I have 0 real life weapons training. I haven't used a gun ever to be honest, I play this becouse I like this style of game but I play it as a game and I wanna see everything balanced and fun. If the Devs need to "nerf" something to make it fun, So be it. I don't wanna get gunned down in 2 seconds becouse it's realistic. I look at this more like Chess with AKs then anything else. Mind you the pawns still have good armor.

Biggest issue I have is the LOS I've seen some of the NPCs on the first map kicking the sky becouse none of my 6 mercs who were there could see the guy. Was kinda funny to see Karl or whatever that guy with the pink shirts called kicking nothing but was also annoying.

Here's a screen shot of a phantom tango. Take a good look at the mini map and what you see on screen. You can see the red dot on the mini map saying there's a hostile there. But in the game world window there's nothing there. Poor Venom needs my glass's.




Much Love,
Reinforce

< Message edited by Reinforce -- 12/26/2008 3:55:52 PM >

(in reply to Hard Sarge)
Post #: 19
RE: Really, really need an Accuracy indicator - 12/26/2008 3:40:30 PM   
Reinforce


Posts: 197
Joined: 12/11/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rx178

  About LOS 
Some weapon have limited sight angel, such as Sniper rifle or weapon attach with scope upgrade. I see in weapon.xml file, some weapon have only 30 degree sight angel when it had scope. Anyway most of weapons have 150 angel. I guess, it explain why some of merc who carrier sniper rifle or weapon attach with scope can see only 1 enemy despite another merc who use SMG but can see all 4-6 enemies.



Your very right rx178, Helmets as well can limit your sight.

(in reply to rx178)
Post #: 20
RE: Really, really need an Accuracy indicator - 12/26/2008 4:22:37 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		I could agree with the ranges being balance, but then why does the AI have more range then the player does, great ideas on balance, when all it needed was some programming skills

which yes, agree that a scope will cut down on what you can see (which may be why they are makeing 4X the standard, instead of the good scopes that take skill to use, and which is also why, Sniper normally work in teams, one is a spotter and defender, while the other is the shooter)

Helmut cut down on sight ? how and why ?, which again, most Snipers do not wear helmuts, they add weight to the head, they are hot and a pain in the butt, but how do they effect sight ? unless they fall off your head




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RE: Really, really need an Accuracy indicator - 12/26/2008 4:36:45 PM   
Reinforce


Posts: 197
Joined: 12/11/2008
Status: offline 		Ya they drop it to 140-150 degrees, They also give you a hearing penalty. Most of the rifles have that kinda sight angle as well, The rifles with scopes like the G36 and the L85A have a sight angel of 100 and 40 respectfuly. The Sniper rifles however are around 40, The M24 has a sight of only 25 degrees.

Much love,
Reinforce

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Post #: 22
RE: Really, really need an Accuracy indicator - 12/26/2008 5:36:25 PM   
SlickWilhelm


Posts: 1854
Joined: 7/22/2007
From: Rochester, MN
Status: offline 		During a load screen, they have little tips about the gameplay. One time, it said that "Sometimes a merc will complain about not being able to see the target. You can order that merc to fire anyway. You're in charge, right?"

So this may explain what is going on with the fact that sometimes when a merc cannot get a good LOS on a target, you can make them fire anyway by clicking on the target.


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Post #: 23
RE: Really, really need an Accuracy indicator - 12/26/2008 8:54:15 PM   
Chris Bisson


Posts: 147
Joined: 10/23/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Slick Wilhelm

During a load screen, they have little tips about the gameplay. One time, it said that "Sometimes a merc will complain about not being able to see the target. You can order that merc to fire anyway. You're in charge, right?"

So this may explain what is going on with the fact that sometimes when a merc cannot get a good LOS on a target, you can make them fire anyway by clicking on the target.




Yes, I do this alot. If I feel there is an unobstructed los I make the merc fire. I also use the snipers to spot targets far away and the other guys shoot at them even though they cannot see them due to range and many times they score hits/kills especially with machine guns.

(in reply to SlickWilhelm)
Post #: 24
RE: Really, really need an Accuracy indicator - 12/26/2008 9:57:45 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Slick Wilhelm

During a load screen, they have little tips about the gameplay. One time, it said that "Sometimes a merc will complain about not being able to see the target. You can order that merc to fire anyway. You're in charge, right?"

So this may explain what is going on with the fact that sometimes when a merc cannot get a good LOS on a target, you can make them fire anyway by clicking on the target.



yea and don't forget the rest of the message, even though he is right !



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