hammerhead
Posts: 25
Joined: 9/26/2000 From: Shell Beach,CA,USA Status: offline
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quote:
Originally posted by BA Evans:
Hey Hammer,
If you want to help with the OOB 'clean-up' process, become familar with the way the OOB works (stats., formations, unit type, etc.)
This way you can offer 'improvements' instead of 'critisisms.' Instead of saying that the Tiger tank's armor is wrong, tell us how how it is wrong (be specific) and tell us exactly which game stats. to affect. Something like, "The Tiger tank's front turret armor should be increased to 176 @ 12% slope because such and such source states that the armor mantle covered the entire front of the turret."
I think that you will have more success with this tactic. By giving us detailed information we will be able to examine the specific game mechanics involved. After consulting the available sources, we can probably do a good job representing the unit in question.
BA Evans
Very well, here you are!
I had said in an earlier post that I would compile a list of 'constructive inputs' to the US OOB/t/o&e issues I had mentioned I felt needed LOTS of work. However, in order to be taken seriously about some of the problems and my proposed solutions, I feel that professionally accurate methods of authorities should be used. Therefore it will not be possible to provide a list of summarized "constructive inputs" as each issue should contain as many authoritative sources as I can gather.
Below I address the 90 mm M3 US Antitank gun.
Using both official and unofficial sources:
"United States Army in WW II - The Ordnance Department -Planning Munitions for War" , Green, Thompson, and Roots. Office of the Chief of Military History, Department of the Army, Washington, D.C. 1955.
We have, "For when firing the most powerful ammunition, tungsten carbide core [ which the US held a far larger quantity the Nazis], the most powerful German tank gun [excluding the 128mm Maus gun -only experimental before the end of the war], the 8.8cm Kw.K.43 (L71) of the Tiger II, or Royal Tiger - and the U.S. 90-mm. gun M3 - of the gun motor carriage M36 and the Pershing tank - had almost identical velocities: the German [8.8cm] gun obtained 3,240 f/s and the American [90mm] 3,350 f/s."
And from, "Standard Catalog of US Military Vehicles -1940 - 1965" , T Berndt. Krause Publications. 1993.
We have, "The main armament on the M26 Pershing was a 90mm [same 90mm M3 as on the M36 Jackson] with a muzzle velocity of 3350 feet per second; it could penetrate about seven inches of armor at 1000 yards."
And from a British publication [always questionable]: "The Tank Story - History of the World Wars" , Ed; A. Kershaw. BPC Publishing, London. 1972.
We have, "Moreover, its [Pershing] 90mm [M3] gun enabled it to outshoot its main rival, the German Tiger Mark VI." Rarely do the Brits give any credit to US arms!
While the SP W@W menus provide incredible differences in these two guns in terms of range and penetration. [Sorry if the matrix below gets messed up. This is not wysiwyg. But I hope you get the idea.]
Gun Range Penetration
Kw.K.8.8cm 88 or 80 hexes 35/225
M3 90mm 56 hexes 35/147
177.8mm@1000yards
per sources above.
I do not know [as I write this post] what the SPW@W penetration numbers convert to in terms of millimeters. But the other numbers provided on the 90 and 88 must now come into question in my mind - such as the fire control and accuracy of these guns.
I will agree that the US avoided using sabot rounds, as they were dangerous to handle. The attitude of the Germans were somewhat different ...and example is that during the war some 15,000 German soldiers were executed for "punitive reasons' , whereas the US shot one and the Brits shot some 100 soldiers.
My research shows that the data on these guns as provided in SPW@W are inaccurate. Such significant errors ( two of the most important guns on tanks in WW2) should be addressed. IMHO. It and other such errors as I have seen have led me to the radical idea that the Nazi weapons have benefited from a certain bias in subject game. This may be due to a lack of interest in US weapons by game designers, [I have heard that gamers favor playing the German side by a five to one ratio]. This may be due to the easier availability of books and lastic models on German weapons. Or it might be that as youngsters we all just thought the German stuff was somehow cooler, and never grew up, or had the frame of mind and skill to investigate our own country's weapons systems. Or we just thought that the Nazis were Neato. I find the wealth of knowledge on the German stuff and the disinterest or lack of knowledge on the US stuff a little disturbing.
I anticipate some irrelevant arguments to these data, but I feel that those who wish to get to the bottom of such issues will respond appropriately. Since such research is time consuming, and since I am not a member of your staff [no time to meet your work hour requirements] I hope you who are able to, and have the authority to do so, will respond appropriately.
I intend to bring other issues to your (forum) attention as I have time to do so [and you have the patience to allow]. As a retired engineer in the American defense contractor field, I like to get stats and data correct ....whether the government stipulates so in his contract, or not.
Again...DO NOT MISREAD ME! I love these games. But I have no pity on the guy who will be broken hearted if his neato Nazi weapons are not as cool and 'superior' as he might wish.
I do feel that many of the earlier egregious errors in the SP games have been corrected. To wit: -10 for German artillery and air crews late in the war, fair acc and fc on the US 37 mm gun, fair treatment of the Bofors 40mm gun. Better treatment of the US 76 mm and 3 inch AT guns, and much more.
However, I think there is still a lot to be done! But, based on some of the responses I have gotten [ not yours!], I wonder if some of the folks on the forum are understanding what I am trying to say.
Tip of the day.
Did anyone know that the engine for the FW 190 came from an American design?
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"Mediocrity carries its own price."
It is my pleasure to communicate with you.
Greg - "Hammerhead"
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"Mediocrity carries its own price."
It is my pleasure to communicate with you.
Greg - "Hammerhead"
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