LimeyBugger
Posts: 31
Joined: 1/11/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Edgewise
So why would you say that militia having old weapons and sniper rifles would be contradictory?
Because it includes Dragunov, M-82, M-24. All pretty high-end weapons. Your statement included some rather high end gear, without any qualifier. "... a cheap but long range weapon - for example a M1 w. a scope" - would be fine. The term "sniper rifle" could be giving your hypothetical militia man a weapon worth more than he earns in a decade.
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Like it or not, the US is by far the place with the widest diversity of ammo manufacture on the planet.
... and? Wal-Mart is the biggest retailer - does that mean, "if you can't get it at Wal-Mart, you can't get it? Guess what? There's other stores around...
http://blog.wired.com/defense/2007/07/chinese-made-ar.html
Sorry, the Iraqui insurgents got their hands on AP ammo. Where'd it come from? Not the USA - China. Yep, some wild-eyed nutter in a turban can get AP ammo. So, why exactly can't professional mercenaries get it, then?
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I dunno of any other country where you can find AP ammo that is not manufactured exclusively for or in some cases by the military.
See above - they're being exported.
For military use only? So? You think that stops gun runners? In 1999-2001, 18 Kh-55 CRUISE MISSILES were smuggled out of Russia to Iran. Those are clearly manufactured _BY_ and _FOR_ exclusive military use. Yet they got their paws on them. You're saying that gun runners can get cruise missiles, tanks, AA, etc - but somehow they'd be hard pressed to get AP ammo?
The USA is the biggest arms exporter in the world - yes. Only? Nope. Russia, Germany, UK, France, Israel, China - there's lots of other fish in the pond.
Come on, France's sale of Exocet missiles to Argentina gave the UK a real headache. 3rd world banana republic with modern anti-ship missiles? Who'd have guessed? But you didn't read about it in the mainstream press before the Falklands war. Just because you're not seeing it in the popular press, doesn't mean it isn't happening. You won't find the manufacturers, purchasers or any middle-men in the arms trade are out for publicity.
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I'm sure there are private comanies someplace, but they would be very rare.
Well, someone in Iraq found one of those "very rare" arms suppliers.
There's lots of private companies. Izmash, Norico, IMBEL, to name a few. State controlled? Yes. Involved in the world arms trade? You bet'cha. There's loads of these "rare" companies in the world arms trade. They don't just supply their nation's industry. If there's profit to be had, they'll happily export. If there's political gains to be had as well? Guess what? Missing shipments turn up in the oddest of places, and nobody bats an eye.
*EDIT*
I think you're getting confused with "rare" and "hard to acquire". One doesn't necessarily mean the other. The fact that most banana republic forces don't have AP ammo has more to do with the fact that most peasants armed with sharpened papayas aren't wearing body armor. Nor do the ill-paid and ill-trained soldiers for that matter, making it not a priority for the rabble to acquire. Rarity of specialized armor piercing ammunition has more to do with market forces than a lack of suppliers - or that's my guess.
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...but you'd still be getting standard ball ammo afaik. My knowledge of Russian ammo manufacture is far from extensive but I'm pretty sure you'll find their armories stuffed with typical ball and tracer rounds, not AP. If you want to get steel core rounds for whatever personal use, I can't think of anyplace you could get them really except from US based suppliers.
China. As shown above.
I can't see why other suppliers would be any different.
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I have to disagree here and say Wiki has failed you...
Wiki isn't infallible. But it's generally accurate. I challenged you to find a reputable source which uses "your" definitions. You didn't provide one, and your strongest argument is "wiki failed you". Go find a source. I have a source for my argument, you don't.
Do you really think you're being reasonable in your refusal to accept my source, on the argument that "it's wrong" - despite the fact that you haven't offered a single source to back up your argument?
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RPG is a Rocket Propelled Grenade.
Since you're basing your whole argument on the wording - well, hate to break it to you, but "RPG" doesn't mean that. Ruchnoi Protivotankovye Granatamyot is what it means - "hand-held anti-tank grenade-launcher". Get your facts straight.
Go do some research. Find an reputable source that says a RPG-7 _IS_ a grenade launcher. Don't try to mince words, especially since you haven't understand the words you're trying to mince.
*EDIT*
There seems to be some ambiguity as to the use of the term "grenade". It seems to be used quite liberally for anything that "goes boom". Hand grenade. Anti-tank grenade. There seems to be a lot of ambiguity as to what defines a "grenade". This might be your source of confusion. Just keep in mind that while a RPG is a "grenade launcher" in that it's warhead is a "grenade" by some definitions - you have to look at the Russian usage of the term, "ANTI-TANK". I think that's what really draws the line between a "grenade launcher" and "RPG". From what I can see:
1. Grenade launchers are primarily anti-personnel, where RPGs are _ALWAYS_ anti-tank.
2. RPGs are _ALWAYS_ hand-held, whereas a grenade launcher can include weapons which are crew served or vehicle mounted.
So does this mean there's no overlap in the wording? Nope. But the same goes for "rifle" and "pistol" and "carbine". There's a degree of overlap in all these. (eg: Mortimer's "pistol" in For a Few Dollars more). However, people generally know what they mean when they use one term or the other.
All RPGs come under the rather liberal definition of "grenade launcher", but not all "grenade launchers" fit the definition of "RPG". The use of the term RPG, by definition, _ONLY_ includes those which are hand-held and anti-tank by design. A Milkor Stopper 37/38 mm riot gun is a grenade launcher. A M-79 is a grenade launcher. A mortar could be described, quite loosely, as a grenade launcher. Hell, a Katyusha could be argued to be a "grenade launcher". Hell, an UR-100 could probably be argued to be a "grenade" that's "launched"... man, that's an ICBM! It's launched - its warhead goes "boom" as any grenade does - ya, sure - it's a "grenade launcher". But none of these are RPGs.
I concede that RPGs are "grenade launchers". It covers a pretty damned broad swath of weapons. I've yet to see a 81mm mortar be described in any military literature, as a "grenade launcher" - but by by the given definition - yep, it is. But you're really losing me with your argument that a LAW or AT-4 aren't RPGs. They are. My original statement was, "Considering he also sells RPGs, dynamite, grenade launchers" - well, some of what he supplies are grenade launchers (M-79, M-203) but do not fall in the classification of RPGs. Thus, I think I was quite correct in using separate descriptors for them.
Well, that's how I suss things out.
*FINAL EDIT*
ARGH! There doesn't seem to be any definition of "grenade" or "launcher" - from what I can see, a "grenade launcher" encompasses anything from a M-79, to a riot tear gas launcher, to a mortar, to an ICBM. Definition of "grenade launcher" seems to be more by consensus than definition. Why don't you give me _YOUR_ definition of what you consider to be a "grenade launcher"?
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as are a couple dozen other weapons that are -not- RPG's
See link above. LAW and AT-4 are classified as RPGs in the article. Hand-held, check. Anti-tank, check. RPGs.
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Tbh, the shaped charge variety of RPG-7 rounds is largely useless against most tanks and armored fighting vehicles, same with the LAW. I remember watching an M2 AFV shrug off several RPG hits on live TV early in the US invasion of Iraq. Back in the 60's they were ok vs light armor, but today they're really not much use in an anti-armor role. Great vs trucks, walls, bunkers, and infantry.
Actually, RPG-7s worked fine vs. Strykers, which is a modern afv.
The RPG line is up to RPG-30 now, I believe.
In 2007, a RPG-29 took out a British Challenger 2 MBT. That's one tough tank.
In 2008, a RPG-29 took out a M1.
Yes, the RPG-7 is pretty dated for most (not all, tho *cough* Stryker *cough* crappola *cough*) modern armor. But there's more than just the RPG-7. It's a whole family of Russian love for RPG-X. That main battle tanks can shrug off RPG-7s is one thing to say. It's quite another to say that they can shrug off RPGs in general. Well, that's just the Russian anti-tank weapon line. Include the other weapons indicated in the above link, and you'll probably find that modern RPGs fare pretty well against modern armor.
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Insofar as all high velocity rounds are inately AP in nature, ap rounds are all over the place, the standard ammo for assault rifles everywhere.
If you're suggesting that HG expand the ammo types for assault rifles to include "normal", to represent "standard ball ammo - as they do with pistol ammunition - then yes. I agree. Given that there's only AP or OC ammo in HG, however - the AP ammo we've been arguing about isn't being represented. "proper" AP ammo should be able to cut through assault armour with relative ease. Something we don't see in HG.
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You would think that (explosives are tightly controlled), but infact that is not the case. It is very easy to get or even make explosives. That is not the case with the specialized core ammo I was describing. It is not easy to make, or get.
It was one example of DJ being able to get "restricted" goods. I don't think it's a major point. I brought it up with other items he supplies, to show that he has access to military supply channels. I'm not going to argue it, since it's off topic.
As for your "hard to get, specialized ammo" - well, there's loads of vendors out there. It's turning up in the hands of wild eyed Jihadists. I don't think the facts support your case that AP ammo would be hideously difficult to get your hands on, as a mercenary or gun-runner.
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Ever been to a massage parlor? Sure, you can get a normal massage, all above board. For a little extra you get the 'happy' massage.
Actually, I prefer straight-up brothels or independent workers. Generally higher quality of girls and there's no dispute over "services rendered". But that's my personal bias.
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If you grease the right palms, have the right paperwork, then just like Victor Bout you keep talking about, you too can be driving home in a tank.
Your point is lost on me. You're talking about gun runners one minute, and the next you're talking about of entertaining businessmen with things that go boom. I don't see the connection, aside from the fact that arms are involved. Are you suggesting that the same people taking cash off the businessmen are the same people involved in the arms trade? I haven't heard of any of these customers of the Chinese entertainers, to be caught running guns, or trying to smuggle RPGs home in their bags. If that's your argument, back up your statement. Otherwise, it's irrelevant and only serves to cloud the issue.
< Message edited by LimeyBugger -- 1/20/2009 4:04:26 PM >
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