RE: Maximum Football 3.0?

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RE: Maximum Football 3.0? - 1/5/2009 7:12:07 PM

regenerator

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haha, wow, the MaxFB rollercoaster-drama-ride continues! My reactions while reading this post, in chronological order -

1) 'Hot damn! Max FB isn't dead!! It's a miracle! Perfect timing! Just as I was about to officially give up on it for good!'(much excitement ensues, albeit silently at my work desk)

2) "only Canadian rules" - 'oh no, I hate Canada! Not to mention Canadian Football!!' (no offense intended, hosers)
excitement drops like a lead zeppelin

3) "could be years" -
excitement has completely dissipated by this point.

Conclusion - Following this game is like being a Cowboys fan: you get built up higher only so you can be dropped down farther and harder.

P.S. sorry to sound bitter guys. I, like some others, have been waiting for this ideal of a graphics-based customizable realistic football(meaning 'American Football') simulation game since 98, and probably before. Seems its simply just too much to hope for in the end.

(in reply to Marauders)

Post #: 31

RE: Maximum Football 3.0? - 1/5/2009 11:29:46 PM

Lucas718

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Is there really even a market for a Canadian rules game? It seems to me that Winter just cut his customer base in half, and it wasn't all that much to begin with.

(in reply to regenerator)

Post #: 32

RE: Maximum Football 3.0? - 1/6/2009 12:50:17 AM

therhino

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quote:

ORIGINAL: regenerator
2) "only Canadian rules" - 'oh no, I hate Canada! Not to mention Canadian Football!!' (no offense intended, hosers)
excitement drops like a lead zeppelin

WHAT? Where did you see this... I'm not buying MFB if it doesn't have indoor rules.

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Post #: 33

RE: Maximum Football 3.0? - 1/6/2009 2:24:05 AM

garysorrell

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quote:

It will be developed for Canadian rules football first and perhaps other rules types later.

Marauders said this earlier in this thread.

As for me:
At this point, I say more power to David. The real old timers around here know thats what he originally wanted, so I say go for it. I think there is absolutely a market for canadian rules football. I play it with MaxFB. I will buy it, if it has some of the customizability that MaxFB currently has.

Personally, if i was him, I would keep it under wraps until it's time to test and release. Roll with the feature set HE decides upon and make the game as playable and bug free as he can.

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Post #: 34

RE: Maximum Football 3.0? - 1/6/2009 2:34:24 AM

Mykal

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Like Gary, providing their is still the option to mod the game as we can now for uniforms and such
I would certainly buy it Canadian Football Rocks IMO.... not my first love in football that will always be NFL
but its different enough to offer a different challenge

I aint gonna get wrapped up in it though, its a way off and in the meantime this version is good enough
I'd rather focus on what we have now

< Message edited by Mykal -- 1/6/2009 2:35:17 AM >

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Post #: 35

RE: Maximum Football 3.0? - 1/6/2009 3:41:30 AM

simmer

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Fix the weather, onsidekick, the jittery players that sometimes dance and dont touch the ball on a punt in the endzone, the time outs sequence, better AI with CPU vs CPU games, Reappearance of my NCAA league....and I'll think of more..............

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Post #: 36

RE: Maximum Football 3.0? - 1/6/2009 6:52:34 AM

Marauders

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quote:

quote:

It will be developed for Canadian rules football first and perhaps other rules types later.

Marauders said this earlier in this thread.

That is the news from David. He wants to break the game up into rulesets, as three rulesets in one game is much harder to program and debug. He stated that he will concentrate on a Canadian ruleset game first.

quote:

At this point, I say more power to David. The real old timers around here know thats what he originally wanted, so I say go for it. I think there is absolutely a market for canadian rules football. I play it with MaxFB. I will buy it, if it has some of the customizability that MaxFB currently has.

What David originally wanted was a relatively simple game that didn't have career mode and wasn't as much a simulation as Maximum Football is now. It was more of an arcade game. I don't believe there is much a market for that unless it has cute animations like Backyard Football.

I see what David is trying to do, but the Canadian rules market isn't very large - even if there is not simular game from EA Sports.

quote:

Personally, if i was him, I would keep it under wraps until it's time to test and release. Roll with the feature set HE decides upon and make the game as playable and bug free as he can.

It may have been better not to say anything at this time. Maximum Football 1.0 earned a reputation as vaporware because of the long development time.

(in reply to garysorrell)

Post #: 37

RE: Maximum Football 3.0? - 1/6/2009 5:41:59 PM

mudrick

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I really don't give a hoot how long it takes.

The one thing I am hoping for is a working profile. Right now all of the 11+ group sets mess everything up.

As far as rulesets go, as long as there is an NFL game available I am happy. The one thing I worry about are the 2 point plays. I currently have them off for obvious reasons.

(in reply to Marauders)

Post #: 38

RE: Maximum Football 3.0? - 1/6/2009 8:17:19 PM

quixian

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quote:

ORIGINAL: redwolf1

Going to be a minimum of 2-3 years (if we take into account previous development trends)...and the lone wolf approach (no pun intended) doesn't bode too well with me. Would have like to have heard that a team (or at least a small team) was involved in the development.

Hammer, meet Nail. EXCELLENT POINT.

Canadian rules only or not, I'll probably still buy MaxFB 3.0 (perhaps it should be called Maximum CFL instead!) when it comes out. HOWEVER - Redwolf summed up my feelings perfectly about the "lone wolf" approach that is apparently being taken up by David again.

It's not even about how fast it takes to do the game, even though any reduction to development time would be wonderful. It's really more about just having at least one more pair of eyes to look through the code, test everything and squash bugs before the product drops so there is no need for heavy patching post-release. It would be great if the gameplay itself was 100% done at time of release with NO artwork, one playbook and one generic stadium so the modders can "finish" the rest of the game.

I was really hoping that if we saw a new FB project by David that he'd have some assistance this time around to keep him from doing everything himself (and hopefully keep him from having a heart attack from all the stress!)

< Message edited by quixian -- 1/6/2009 9:45:54 PM >

(in reply to redwolf1)

Post #: 39

RE: Maximum Football 3.0? - 1/7/2009 4:22:29 AM

Marauders

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quote:

It's not even about how fast it takes to do the game, even though any reduction to development time would be wonderful. It's really more about just having at least one more pair of eyes to look through the code, test everything and squash bugs before the product drops so there is no need for heavy patching post-release.

That is exactly it. Also, no one has the best knowledge, expertise, and experience in all aspects of a game. Having a team means having a better base of experience to work from.

quote:

It would be great if the gameplay itself was 100% done at time of release with NO artwork, one playbook and one generic stadium so the modders can "finish" the rest of the game.

No, that's what was tried last time, and it wasn't good for the health and development of the game.

quote:

I was really hoping that if we saw a new FB project by David that he'd have some assistance this time around to keep him from doing everything himself (and hopefully keep him from having a heart attack from all the stress!)

David has always had the option of creating a team for development. I don't believe he wants to go that route.

(in reply to quixian)

Post #: 40

RE: Maximum Football 3.0? - 1/7/2009 6:46:47 AM

long_time_fan

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I am glad that David is getting back to the project. I am concerned with the appearance that Matrix may have altered the way David delivered the game (and thereby soured his ardour for it). I for one (while living in the US) LOVE the CFL. It is my first football love, and I have felt grossly unrepresented in the game market until this title came out. I do not know how many will buy the game, but if it is a quality product, I believe there will be a market. However, there are simulation elements that exist in 2.2 in a rudimentary form, and there is the potential for other elements (salary, trades, etc ...). Additionally, the ability to add custom graphics was a huge selling point and I hope that I can use the ones I've tried to make and/or downloaded or at least ask Mykal to create new ones for me. When it's ready, I'll pick it up.
LTF

(in reply to Marauders)

Post #: 41

RE: Maximum Football 3.0? - 1/7/2009 7:01:14 PM

Marauders

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quote:

I am concerned with the appearance that Matrix may have altered the way David delivered the game (and thereby soured his ardour for it).

From early posts on this board, one can surmise that Matrix Games asked David to add some career features (multiple seasons, aging ...) to the game and a quick sim that didn't take hours to run. That's about it. Matrix Games generally takes a hands off approach to its developers.

In my opinion, Matrix Games could have done much more, and a goals based development schedule would have been a good start. Sometimes hands off doesn't work well. I would have to state that the two biggest mistakes Matrix Games made were allowing the game to be released too early and pricing the game like a mega wargame rather than a broad based consumer title.

(in reply to long_time_fan)

Post #: 42

RE: Maximum Football 3.0? - 1/8/2009 1:35:46 AM

Tbird

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My only hope is that this will be a seperate install just in case I can't get 8 man outdoor league working with 3.0

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Post #: 43

RE: Maximum Football 3.0? - 1/8/2009 4:12:52 AM

garysorrell

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3.0 should be an entirely separate game from Maximum Football that we have now.

As Marauders said, it will be 12 man canadian rules. So it should have nothing to do with the current game.

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Post #: 44

RE: Maximum Football 3.0? - 1/8/2009 2:44:50 PM

Brockleigh

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I kind of had a feeling that this was probably the case, that David was pulling back from active support to concentrate on 3.0.

Not that I'm close to Dave, or am connected in any way shape or form to the game outside of being a loyal supporter, but abandonment of the game did not seem like David's style. I've been talking to the guy since 2001 and considering how much of a football fan he is and how passionate he is about the project, I didn't have much faith in the pullback being 'real'.

In fact, I'm actually disappointed in this 'leak' being found, as I'd rather have David work on this in peace and quiet with no one knowing jack squat. You just know that six months to a year from now, someone's going to pipe up with "Anyone hear anything on 3.0?" and get the whole process started again.

I, for one, am totally happy with v2.2. Any concerns I have are very minor ones that are easy to overlook, and whatever other concerns I have can be solved with playbook or constants file adjustments, or help from the community. I love the Rosters, the Playbooks, the Stadia and Uniforms that have been created, and quite frankly I am hoping that 3.0 does take two or three years to complete so that I can maximize my enjoyment of the user-created content before the dreaded Hard Reset.

David, take your sweet time. You won't hear a peep from me. And I call on the community at large to smack down any impatience on a 3.0 release as soon as possible to let a great man work in peace at his own pace.

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Post #: 45

RE: Maximum Football 3.0? - 1/8/2009 4:23:37 PM

DAWUSS

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quote:

ORIGINAL: garysorrell

3.0 should be an entirely separate game from Maximum Football that we have now.

As Marauders said, it will be 12 man canadian rules. So it should have nothing to do with the current game.

Although if it's still compatible with the MFB on some levels (ie, league and roster transfers), I won't be complaining one bit

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Post #: 46

RE: Maximum Football 3.0? - 1/9/2009 4:24:36 PM

regenerator

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brockleigh
I, for one, am totally happy with v2.2. Any concerns I have are very minor ones that are easy to overlook, and whatever other concerns I have can be solved with playbook or constants file adjustments, or help from the community. I love the Rosters, the Playbooks, the Stadia and Uniforms that have been created, and quite frankly I am hoping that 3.0 does take two or three years to complete so that I can maximize my enjoyment of the user-created content before the dreaded Hard Reset.

I wish I shared your sentiments, I really do. I for one finally decided that the law of diminishing returns was beginning to apply in regards to my own attempts to get this game where I'd like it. I recently went through a period where I spent many hours of testing, attempting to use all the methods available to us:

1) Constant tweaking of the Constants.dat files (trying a variety of settings)
2) Tweaking the Player Ratings using JD's DB-editor tool
3) Using a variety of league sets
4) Using/tweaking a variety of user-created playbooks
5) Discourse through this forum with other members in regards to their modding efforts

Though many here in the community have done much hard work, and without a doubt enhanced the game, there is only so much they can achieve with the limitations in place. Without someone accessing and modifying the source code, I have unfortunately concluded that is it not at all an easy task to get the 2.2 version close to what I consider realistic NFL-type football (even just taking into account statistical results and realistic game-play). In fact, it became apparent to me after weeks of dedicated testing that, without a herculean effort, even with all the great 3rd-party work that's been done, I was not going to get this game into a state that met the minimum standard of a what I consider a good football sim.

This may seem to indicate unrealistically high standards on my part, but all I'm looking for in the most basic sense is what I believe many fans of the genre were in the first place - an updated version of FBPro, essentially an FBPro '99 that works. Despite the focus on Canadian league rules from the start, Maximum Football was still the only game in town that seemed to offer that kind of potential.

It may be possible to get 2.2 to a state close to this goal, but ultimately it seems that it's not worth all the effort required, especially since there's no guarantee that such an end result could EVER be achieved (and considering some of the alternatives that will soon be out there for the PC-gaming market)

This is why 3.0 could be a final saving grace to this game - even if Canadian Football will be the main focus, at least cleaning up the major bugs/shortcomings on the American side would be a great favor to those of us who have stuck around all these years, waiting for the promise of this project since 2001, heck, even the promise of FBPro '99, to be realized.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

< Message edited by regenerator -- 1/9/2009 4:26:04 PM >

(in reply to Brockleigh)

Post #: 47

RE: Maximum Football 3.0? - 1/9/2009 4:57:53 PM

coachtrox

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simmer - can you pm me? I have a couple of simple questions that don't need to clutter up space... Would you prefer email or here?
coachtrox

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Post #: 48

RE: Maximum Football 3.0? - 1/9/2009 8:16:51 PM

Marauders

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quote:

I kind of had a feeling that this was probably the case, that David was pulling back from active support to concentrate on 3.0.

That wasn't the case. David pulled back from 2.2 for various reasons, but one could not really say it was to work on any form of Maximum Football.

quote:

Not that I'm close to Dave, or am connected in any way shape or form to the game outside of being a loyal supporter, but abandonment of the game did not seem like David's style.

David abandoned Maximum Football 2.2. He basically left the community, beta team, and Matrix Games to our own devices. Whether it is his style or not is debatable, but one can say that David has generally taken the lone wolf approach to a major level as it pertains to game development.

quote:

I've been talking to the guy since 2001 and considering how much of a football fan he is and how passionate he is about the project, I didn't have much faith in the pullback being 'real'.

The pullback was real in the sense that Maximum Football as we know it will not be developed by Wintervalley Software and Matrix Games. Whatever Maximum Football 3.0 looks like will not be the same game in many ways.

quote:

In fact, I'm actually disappointed in this 'leak' being found, as I'd rather have David work on this in peace and quiet with no one knowing jack squat. You just know that six months to a year from now, someone's going to pipe up with "Anyone hear anything on 3.0?" and get the whole process started again.

David posted the information to his website. That isn't really a leak. I do agree that it would have been better for David not to post any information about Maximum Football 3.0, but it was his prerogative to do so.

(in reply to coachtrox)

Post #: 49

RE: Maximum Football 3.0? - 1/9/2009 9:09:27 PM

long_time_fan

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All of this begs the question the future of Matrix in making a football title.� If (and it seems most likely) David creates an entirely new product, will Matrix step into the void and produce a title like many on this board have been after.� I feel a sense of loyalty to David and this product, but that does not mean I will not spend money to buy another quality football game (from Matrix or elsewhere).� I guess what I'm saying is that doesn't David's departure open the door for Matrix to develop a game (like this, but with career, managerial, customization features) that many of us want, whether there is a Canadian component? If Matrix just a production and distribution house, are there any programmers willing to take a shot (I vaguely remember a programmer asking about taking over the project)? �
LTF

< Message edited by long_time_fan -- 1/9/2009 9:13:17 PM >

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Post #: 50

RE: Maximum Football 3.0? - 1/9/2009 10:07:23 PM

DONMVP

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Well i plan on buying the 3.0 when it comes out . Plus plan on still using the current game till it dos`nt work any more on my comp . I still plan on doing uniforms and historical league when i can . Hopefully sometime i`ll finish a league i start , lol . Almost finished with my 1960 nfl afl league , tHEN MIGHT LOOK OTHER ARENA LEAGUES NOT SHUT DOWN , TO MAKE THERE LEAGUES AND ROSTERS . Plus started to look at div 2 and 3 college football to last night , ouch my heads hurting from looking on line . I`M no good at utilitis and constant tweeking but i can help comunity in those other areas.

(in reply to long_time_fan)

Post #: 51

RE: Maximum Football 3.0? - 1/9/2009 11:36:40 PM

mbsports

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My gameplan is that if something comes out that does a better job of simulating a football game then MaxFB 2.x then yes I'll buy it. Unfortunately at this point I have to go into Missouri mode and declare it to be a show me state. MaxFB does so many varied things well but where it lacks is in true realism. It does a good job of "approximating" football but if we want to talk about simulation there are just too many holes that cannot be filled by the tools created.

I use MaxFB because it gets me as far as anything out there at doing what I want, and I do so with clarity of the issues that exist. If 3.0 is a version that does a single rule set and does it extremely well and without the number of flaws that exist today, then I'll be in no question. If I look at 3.0 and I see the same sorts of limitations that are in 2.x but with upgraded graphics I just can't justify the investment. 3.0 must address the myriad of violations that 2.x has with regard to playing the actual game of football.

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Post #: 52

RE: Maximum Football 3.0? - 1/9/2009 11:54:01 PM

garysorrell

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quote:

This is why 3.0 could be a final saving grace to this game - even if Canadian Football will be the main focus, at least cleaning up the major bugs/shortcomings on the American side would be a great favor to those of us who have stuck around all these years, waiting for the promise of this project since 2001, heck, even the promise of FBPro '99, to be realized.

I guess I am missing something. I keep reading comments from people that suggest there is some sort of connection between our current game and the 3.0 we have heard about.
What I understand from what Marauders has reported from conversations with David, is this 3.0 is a new venture, focusing on Canadian rules. It is NOT and will not be any sort of patch, update, or add-on for MaxFB 2.2
It will be exactly that, a standalone game of 12 man football.

Or did I miss something.
Im not jumping on anyone, just dont want newcomers to think there is anything further coming that would have any impact on the current game.

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Post #: 53

RE: Maximum Football 3.0? - 1/10/2009 1:29:49 AM

Marauders

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At this point, Maximum Football 3.0 is based on some of the code for Maximum Football 2.2, but much of it will be changed to new file types, folders, and maybe even a different graphics engine. David is still working things out as far as changes, but as far as I know, many database files will be changed.

(in reply to garysorrell)

Post #: 54

RE: Maximum Football 3.0? - 1/10/2009 7:40:34 AM

Tullius

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I do not think that this discussion makes any sense. David Winter has only announcend that a 3rd version is in development and many items are not decided. In future we will could have "message boards and development blogs" and the dust will be settled - perhaps.

So at the moment we have only guesses, assumptions, hearsay and other not reliable speculations. This can not be a basis for a serious discussion.

< Message edited by Tullius -- 1/10/2009 11:48:52 AM >

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Post #: 55

RE: Maximum Football 3.0? - 1/10/2009 2:06:39 PM

bbmike

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tullius

I do not think that this discussion makes any sense. David Winter has only announcend that a 3rd version is in development and many items are not decided. In future we will could have "message boards and development blogs" and the dust will be settled - perhaps.

So at the moment we have only guesses, assumptions, hearsay and other not reliable speculations. This can not be a basis for a serious discussion.

Yes, but we have so little in simulated football life. Let us dream!

(in reply to Tullius)

Post #: 56

RE: Maximum Football 3.0? - 1/10/2009 2:40:25 PM

Marauders

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quote:

So at the moment we have only guesses, assumptions, hearsay and other not reliable speculations. This can not be a basis for a serious discussion.

I have had a conversation with David about this. The problem with me posting anything more solid is that David is trying a few things out to see if he can make them work and is in the process of porting some code over. Because of this, there are many variables involved that can change how the game looks and plays in the future. At this point, I'm not even sure if David knows which direction he either wants or may be forced to take some things.

I do agree that it doesn't make much sense to try to delve much more into it at this time, as too much is still fluid. I am sure David will announce more when he wants to. He is going to do this in a more casual way than before, which may not sound different for the community but is a big change from what the beta team was used to, so the process will take some time. The positive note here is that the game isn't being built from scratch, so it isn't like getting to Maximum Football 1.3 was.

As far as compatability between Maximum Football 2.2 and 3.0 data files and graphics, David has stated that "none of what I have now is compatible with what's out in the public." The two games will be similar, but the changes will not allow for cross compatability. We knew that would be the case when the specs for Maximum Football 3.0 were talked about in the private and community forums some time ago, so it should not come as a big surprise to most of us.

(in reply to bbmike)

Post #: 57

RE: Maximum Football 3.0? - 1/10/2009 3:53:28 PM

Old Coach

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Since it looks like the initial version of 3.0 will be a Canadian rules game, I have thought that it might work to market 3 versions of Maximum Football- MaxFB-Canada, MaxFB-U.S. and MaxFB-Indoor. Maybe each version could be priced in the mid-$30 range. Since I'm not interested in indoor rules football, I would buy the Canada and U.S. versions if they were seperate games. It might be easier to program if the versions were rules specific. I would hope that we would still have some rules options such as kickoff yard line, conversions, etc.

Old Coach

(in reply to Marauders)

Post #: 58

RE: Maximum Football 3.0? - 1/11/2009 1:02:26 AM

therhino

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Right now I can't see myself buying 3.0 if it is just CFL rules, but IF David would develop an indoor rule version I would have no problem putting down $40 or even $50 for it.

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Post #: 59

RE: Maximum Football 3.0? - 1/11/2009 1:13:01 AM

Lucas718

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No way am I buying a CFL game.

(in reply to therhino)

Post #: 60