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Theoretical invasion of England - 1/14/2009 7:23:27 PM   
niceguy2005


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Status: offline 		I know that Germany never really got that close to an invasion of England. However, has anyone ever seen a game, or a paper that tries to accurately play out such a scenario? I'm curious what the German plans might have been, what English defenses would have been like, what likely outcomes were predicted. It's an intriguing what-if that I never hear about.

I suppose one would have to pre-suppose that the UK had lost the battle of Britain and that for all intents and purposes the RAF was nearly wiped out.

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RE: Theoretical invasion of England - 1/14/2009 7:28:40 PM   
Iridium


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quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005
I suppose one would have to pre-suppose that the UK had lost the battle of Britain and that for all intents and purposes the RAF was nearly wiped out.


+1 on that.

The biggest problem I see is that Germany lost numerous DDs during it's invasion of Norway. I don't know if Norway's defenses were comparable to England's (I'd assume not) but if I were to take a wild stab at it:

Germany would lose many naval assets in such an attempt and probably lose no matter how hard they tried. Unless England just sits there and allows a beachhead to form and gives no resistance at all...

British subs might have had more historically thrilling tales to tell.

< Message edited by Iridium -- 1/14/2009 7:29:53 PM >

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RE: Theoretical invasion of England - 1/14/2009 7:39:43 PM   
anarchyintheuk

 

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Status: offline 		Panzer General inaccurately plays out an 'Invasion of England' scenario.

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RE: Theoretical invasion of England - 1/14/2009 7:48:47 PM   
Iridium


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quote:

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

Panzer General inaccurately plays out an 'Invasion of England' scenario.


Honestly, I don't think any game will accurately portray an operation Sealion. It just wasn't feasible no matter how much air superiority Germany gained. Supplying an army on England with cargo ships would have been a nightmare. Subs, DD fleets running at night, after England makes or gets more aircraft from the US, they would have eaten cargo fleets alive.

The only way I can imagine England being lost is if it was starved near death and surrendered without a fight (England's tenacity being what it was, I find this hard to imagine as well).

EDIT: According to wiki this is the OOB:

Sealion OOB

< Message edited by Iridium -- 1/14/2009 7:59:04 PM >

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RE: Theoretical invasion of England - 1/14/2009 8:03:08 PM   
wwengr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iridium

quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005
I suppose one would have to pre-suppose that the UK had lost the battle of Britain and that for all intents and purposes the RAF was nearly wiped out.


+1 on that.

The biggest problem I see is that Germany lost numerous DDs during it's invasion of Norway. I don't know if Norway's defenses were comparable to England's (I'd assume not) but if I were to take a wild stab at it:

Germany would lose many naval assets in such an attempt and probably lose no matter how hard they tried. Unless England just sits there and allows a beachhead to form and gives no resistance at all...

British subs might have had more historically thrilling tales to tell.


In Norway, the Kriegsmarine lost 1 Heavy Cruiser, 1 Light Cruiser, 10 Destroyers, and 6 U-boats in the Naval Campaign to land forces in Norway. Many other ships were damaged. The Royal Navy lost 1 Aircraft Carrier, two cruisers, seven destroyers, and a submarine. The French Navy lost a Destroyer. The Royal Norwegian Navy lost 1 destroyer, 2 Coastal Patrol ships, and 2 submarines.

It was about an even exchange in numbers, but the Royal Navy was much larger than the Kriegsmarine and could afford teh losses.

With regard to operation Sealion, I think it would have been a bloodbath against the Germans. The remnants of even a defeated British air power would have been in play and the Germans, like the rest of the world at the time, did not have a realistic, viable amphibious doctrine or the ability to make a functioning port in England. There were not enough transport aircraft in existence in the world to sustain teh size of force required. The Royal Navy's Home Fleet would have williingly sustained major casualties as it filled the English Channel with sunken German ships.

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RE: Theoretical invasion of England - 1/14/2009 8:13:37 PM   
Dixie


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Status: offline 		Add in the fact that to establish a sustainable beachhead each of the German invasion barges would have had to make multiple trips, and the heavy losses that they would have suffered and the enterprise looks more than a little shaky.

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RE: Theoretical invasion of England - 1/14/2009 8:25:23 PM   
skrewball


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Status: offline 		All you have to do is look at the forces involved in Operation Overlord! The Germans had no-where near the amount of hardware that the allies brought with them and that is probably what it would have took.

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RE: Theoretical invasion of England - 1/14/2009 8:29:19 PM   
JeffroK


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Status: offline 		TOAW III offers scenarios as well as a mod of COTA.

SPI put out a solataire game eons ago.

None really portray the full effort, COTA is a battle for the Folkestone area, no naval or air involvement, TOAW does it in an abstract way & the SPI game (Seelowe?) is 70's era gaming.


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RE: Theoretical invasion of England - 1/14/2009 8:49:10 PM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: skrewball

All you have to do is look at the forces involved in Operation Overlord! The Germans had no-where near the amount of hardware that the allies brought with them and that is probably what it would have took.



The German wouldn´t have needed as much as the Allied brought for Overlord because even if the German defenses against Overlord were far weaker than what the Atlantikwall should have looked like, compared to what the English had at the coast at the time of Sealion it was like a Maginot line at the French Atlantic coast.

But I agree with all other posters, Sealion would have been a total disaster. IMO what would have made this operation impossible would be the Royal Navy which would contribute the most in a victory against an invasion of Britain. A defeated RAF and the remaining, weakly armed ground troops would perhaps not have been enough to stop the German invasion.... but only perhaps....

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RE: Theoretical invasion of England - 1/14/2009 9:21:45 PM   
stuman


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Status: offline 		Two of a couple of sites I found;
http://www.americanheritage.com/entertainment/articles/web/20061021-alternate-history-world-war-II-operation-sea-lion-invasion-of-britain.shtml

http://gateway.alternatehistory.com/essays/Sealion.html

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RE: Theoretical invasion of England - 1/14/2009 9:25:38 PM   
pasternakski


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quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

I know that Germany never really got that close to an invasion of England. However, has anyone ever seen a game, or a paper that tries to accurately play out such a scenario? I'm curious what the German plans might have been, what English defenses would have been like, what likely outcomes were predicted. It's an intriguing what-if that I never hear about.

I suppose one would have to pre-suppose that the UK had lost the battle of Britain and that for all intents and purposes the RAF was nearly wiped out.

Break 'em out and set 'em up...





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RE: Theoretical invasion of England - 1/14/2009 9:26:59 PM   
niceguy2005


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wwengr

With regard to operation Sealion, I think it would have been a bloodbath against the Germans. The remnants of even a defeated British air power would have been in play and the Germans, like the rest of the world at the time, did not have a realistic, viable amphibious doctrine or the ability to make a functioning port in England. There were not enough transport aircraft in existence in the world to sustain teh size of force required. The Royal Navy's Home Fleet would have williingly sustained major casualties as it filled the English Channel with sunken German ships.

From what little I know, I agree that the lack of an amphibious doctrine would have been a very large hurdle. The German barges apparently could not carry tanks and artillery in sufficient quantity, vital weapons which gave the German army such an advantage. THe only chance of success I see is that they would have had to come up with a way to transport mechanized units in mass.

I'm less convinced that the RN could have prevented success. IF, as Hitler intended, the RN could be sufficiently engaged in the Med and Atlantic it is likely a beach head could be established. Once established it was a matter of the effectiveness of German army blitzkrieg tactics. I don't think a prolonged siege of the UK was viable. An invading commander would have to go for the jugular. It is questionable if Germany could keep supply lines open for months.

I wonder if the value of air power isn't being under estimated. How many torpedo bombers did Germany have? Had anyone ever made a successful night aerial torpedo attack? Mines and torpedo bombers might have been enough to keep the RN at arms length.

...then there's always the question of American involvement.

Edit: I did notice that in the wiki article on Sealion, they mention a wargame conducted by the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst, which did show the success of Germany establishing a beach head. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Sealion


< Message edited by niceguy2005 -- 1/14/2009 9:29:06 PM >

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RE: Theoretical invasion of England - 1/14/2009 9:31:36 PM   
Mynok


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Status: offline 		I don't think the Germans had any purpose-built torpedo bombers. Most of their anti-shipping arsenal was Stukas.

EDIT: He-115 appears to have been used as a torpedo bomber along with its primary role as a minelayer and scout.

< Message edited by Mynok -- 1/14/2009 9:33:40 PM >

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RE: Theoretical invasion of England - 1/14/2009 9:33:47 PM   
stuman


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Status: offline 		I don't think Germany had a well developed, fully functional, supplied, etc. torpedo capability at that point. THe British Army was in a weakened state after Dunkirk, but I can only imagine to what lengths every last pilot, and ship wpuld go to to hit those unwieldy barges.  If memory serves me, I do not think many high ranking German field officers were keen on the idea.

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RE: Theoretical invasion of England - 1/14/2009 9:37:45 PM   
Japan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stuman

If memory serves me, I do not think many high ranking German field officers were keen on the idea.



Well.. I dont't think the Officers wanted to Invade France either... "It will be the end of Germany" some of them sayed.


After Dunkirk, UK had only enugth Heavy Equcimant in England to equip one singel divition.

If adding together all the homeguards (who had very few weapons), and the british army in UK who only had rifles
and light weapons (as its hevy weapons was left in Dunkirk) I dont think they would need very many divitions to secure the UK.

Assuming they had Total Air Supirriority, then they could prevented the British Fleet of entering the Channal.
The British Admiralety would never accepted "suecide" missions to stop a German Invation.

By landing 25 000 Paratroops on the British Channel Costlines, and then Airlifting in another 60 000 men to secure Channal Ports... then moving across 15-20 divitions on Barges and smaller ships to this channel ports..then starting to shipping in supplies...

Maby it could have worked,  but I think if they would managed air Supiriority they could managed it. 

Army vs Army there is definetly no doubdt... question has to be how fast and effectively they could moved their army across the channel.

If I was in charge I would invaded Gibralter, via Nationalist Spain if needed (regardless of what Franco would think about it) ... and then asked the Italiens to assist in Sealion with their entire Airforce and entire mershant fleet and navy.



< Message edited by Japan -- 1/14/2009 9:43:06 PM >

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RE: Theoretical invasion of England - 1/14/2009 9:44:27 PM   
castor troy


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Status: offline 		20.000 paratroopers? Airlifting in 60.000 troops???? You are still talking about Germany? In 1940? And 20 divisions on barges?

Of what time frame are we talking about? 3 months?

< Message edited by castor troy -- 1/14/2009 9:45:21 PM >

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RE: Theoretical invasion of England - 1/14/2009 9:50:59 PM   
Japan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

20.000 paratroopers? Airlifting in 60.000 troops???? You are still talking about Germany? In 1940? And 20 divisions on barges?

Of what time frame are we talking about? 3 months?



Well, Airlifting in the Troops I think they could have done.. they did it on Malme Airbase on Crete,
and also on multiple locations in Norway. They Airlifted a Para Corps in on 3 days, and then after the airfield was secured the airlifted a Full Divition with Hevy Equicmant in to Malme Airbase on a singel day. They had the opinion that airlifting in 60 000 men with hevy equicmant would take up to 1 week.

The plans Germany had for Sealion, was to Paradrop 19 800 men onto Britain, they did not have that many trained Paratroops, however they planned to do same as they did in Norway.. to give a "crash course" in Paradropping to Mounten Troops and then to use them as Paratroopers. So it would in fact be a wast majorety of Mounten Troops they dropped in... but it does not matter realy, as due to the conditions of the British Army German Mounten troops would preformed fairly good vs them anyways.

< Message edited by Japan -- 1/14/2009 9:55:05 PM >

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RE: Theoretical invasion of England - 1/14/2009 9:53:43 PM   
Odin


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Status: offline 		From my point of view, Britain was finally save because of the following points:

1. It is an Island, so a big, well equipped fleet, were needed. At this time, the german navy was far away from that.

2. An Airforce which was not equipped to carry out a strategic bombing campaign,it was mainly organized as a force to support ground forces (one-third of Luftwaffe aircraft in 1940 were Stukas i read somewhere, no really heavy bombers, only attack aircraft like the HE-111, f.e. ...)

3. The Adolf-Factor (foolish orders in military things, like the one from switching attacks from airfields and industrial targets of interest to ****ty and military useless bombing of citys, at a point the RAF was very weak already.



For my part:

I´m a german, and i say, if Britain had fallen, i would live now in a prison never seen before, with misthrust, fear, anger....in this dark times even childs denounced their parents, and other way...i cannot explain what else. The years of Adolf can only explained by the people who lived under him.

This means:

Thank you Britain, and good save the Queen!



Odin


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RE: Theoretical invasion of England - 1/14/2009 10:14:36 PM   
Oldguard1970

 

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Status: offline 		  Oh my, oh my - What memories!

In the early '60s I designed "Operation Sealion" based on the "D-Day" engine.  I offered it to Avalon Hill.  (My price was to be a free production copy.) To my eternal astonishment, they did not want it, so you cannot find a copy to play.  How sad!

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RE: Theoretical invasion of England - 1/14/2009 10:17:33 PM   
bradfordkay

 

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Status: offline 		"Well, Airlifting in the Troops I think they could have done.. they did it on Malme Airbase on Crete, "

And suffered such heavy losses that their paratroop forces were never again a major factor in the war...

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RE: Theoretical invasion of England - 1/14/2009 10:25:04 PM   
Odin


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Status: offline 		Yes...i have the medals of one of those paratroopers (friend of my grandma in law??)which made it to crete and fight, including the famous "Kreta-Ärmelband" a yellow ring on weared on one arm of the uniform with printed "Kreta" in white.

This happens if you send in air-dropped units without totally air superioty..

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RE: Theoretical invasion of England - 1/14/2009 11:02:23 PM   
pasternakski


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Status: offline 		A little more about BSA from the GMT Web site. The game is long out of print, so that someone wanting a copy would have to find it on eBay, the Decision Games "Desert Fox" used game store, or some such place.

Friends of mine and I used to play the heck out of this. It's a lot of fun, although it has been criticized by some as having a rather Byzantine turn sequence (I never found it to be a problem). The degree of detail is excellent, and it contains a pretty extensive analysis of the historical campaign and hypothetical circumstances. We used to really like playing the Battle of Britain sub-game to see if the actual invasion would ensue, which it didn't very often (as the German player, you had to meet certain victory conditions in order to shift into the invasion game itself.

Good stuff (and it is also designed for solitaire play, for those who like that sort of thing).





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RE: Theoretical invasion of England - 1/14/2009 11:03:29 PM   
Ambassador

 

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Status: offline 		Well,

IF the Luftwaffe managed to gain air supremacy (not only superiority) over South England by continuing its attacks against Fighter Command longer,

IF the Luftwaffe had the means to prevent the Royal Navy of interfering, by crash-developping torpedo bombers from He-111 or amassing enough Ju-87 (see the losses inflicted on the RN during the Battle of Crete in Spring 1941),

IF the Kriegsmarine managed to get enough warships to cover the invasion from the RN elements that would evade the Luftwaffe, by impressing the french fleet of Toulon (and maybe, by luck, having the RN not attacking Mers-el-Kebir), capturing Gibraltar, and bringing some parts of the french and italian fleets to the Channel ports,

IF submarines and raiders could succeed in preventing the delivery of thousands of weapons, guns, and lots of ammunition by the US,

IF the invasion force, the very first wave, managed to seize a relatively intact major harbor before supply became a problem,

IF they managed to actually start the invasion in the 1940 Fall, that is before too many field and beach defences were built,

THEN it might have worked.  But that's a long list of IFfes.  The possibility exists, but the probability is abysmally low that all these conditions could be met at the same time...

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RE: Theoretical invasion of England - 1/14/2009 11:09:21 PM   
niceguy2005


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Japan

 
quote:

ORIGINAL: stuman

If memory serves me, I do not think many high ranking German field officers were keen on the idea.



Well.. I dont't think the Officers wanted to Invade France either... "It will be the end of Germany" some of them sayed.


After Dunkirk, UK had only enugth Heavy Equcimant in England to equip one singel divition.

If adding together all the homeguards (who had very few weapons), and the british army in UK who only had rifles
and light weapons (as its hevy weapons was left in Dunkirk) I dont think they would need very many divitions to secure the UK.

Assuming they had Total Air Supirriority, then they could prevented the British Fleet of entering the Channal.
The British Admiralety would never accepted "suecide" missions to stop a German Invation.

By landing 25 000 Paratroops on the British Channel Costlines, and then Airlifting in another 60 000 men to secure Channal Ports... then moving across 15-20 divitions on Barges and smaller ships to this channel ports..then starting to shipping in supplies...

Maby it could have worked,  but I think if they would managed air Supiriority they could managed it. 

Army vs Army there is definetly no doubdt... question has to be how fast and effectively they could moved their army across the channel.

If I was in charge I would invaded Gibralter, via Nationalist Spain if needed (regardless of what Franco would think about it) ... and then asked the Italiens to assist in Sealion with their entire Airforce and entire mershant fleet and navy.



According to what I read the invasion plan called for 9 German divisions and 1 airborne division. It was considered barely adequate.

Edit: also airlifting troops is not what was needed. It's the heavy equipment that would be needed to do in the English. Beating an enemy on the wide open fields of France is one thing, but I wouldn't want to be light infantry in England with a Home Guard squad behind every hedge row.

< Message edited by niceguy2005 -- 1/14/2009 11:11:49 PM >

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RE: Theoretical invasion of England - 1/14/2009 11:10:21 PM   
stuman


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Status: offline 		That is a good summation, including the need to do all of that before the worsening fall weather makes the landings even more difficult.

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RE: Theoretical invasion of England - 1/14/2009 11:16:32 PM   
crsutton


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Status: offline 		Landing craft were the key and the Germans never really had them. Look at the Allies and the trial and error experiences that they had. June 1944 could never had happened without the setback at Dieppe, near run thing at Tarawa and the experience gained in North Africa, Salerno and Anzio. The Germans did not have had the luxury of time or resources to practice and learn, or the industrial capacity to build the speciality type craft to accomplish it. No real capital ships for bombardment either(none left floating for any length of time anyways), and a small airforce, (yes, very small) that could not deliver the type of bombload or interdiction necessary to cover the landings.

The reality is that if they could have done it, you know that they would have (Gotta love those wacky Nazis)....but they chose not to for good reason.

Of course, I am not saying that it would not make a fun simulations. Say, what is Gary Grisgby doing these days?

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RE: Theoretical invasion of England - 1/14/2009 11:16:54 PM   
niceguy2005


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OldGuard1970

  Oh my, oh my - What memories!

In the early '60s I designed "Operation Sealion" based on the "D-Day" engine.  I offered it to Avalon Hill.  (My price was to be a free production copy.) To my eternal astonishment, they did not want it, so you cannot find a copy to play.  How sad!

Sorry to hear that. It would have been interesting to see. However, there is one reason I can see why a company would be reticent toward the idea, given how theoretical the situation, grognards would pick apart any implementation, no matter how well researched.

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RE: Theoretical invasion of England - 1/14/2009 11:19:48 PM   
heenanc

 

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Status: offline 		"The British Admiralety would never accepted "suecide" missions to stop a German Invation."

It would be suicide if they didn't try this statement doesn't make sence.

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RE: Theoretical invasion of England - 1/14/2009 11:24:19 PM   
Odin


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Status: offline 		In fall it is clearly to late...too much bad weather.

The fall of britain COULD have been made...but surely not in this manner like it was done.

Even Adolf didn´t want a war against Britain...the escape of british troops was on exsult of this thinking. The troops already in moved in position becomes his personal oders to make a stop...in a clear idea to let them escape.





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RE: Theoretical invasion of England - 1/14/2009 11:28:53 PM   
niceguy2005


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Landing craft were the key and the Germans never really had them. Look at the Allies and the trial and error experiences that they had. June 1944 could never had happened without the setback at Dieppe, near run thing at Tarawa and the experience gained in North Africa, Salerno and Anzio. The Germans did not have had the luxury of time or resources to practice and learn, or the industrial capacity to build the speciality type craft to accomplish it. No real capital ships for bombardment either(none left floating for any length of time anyways), and a small airforce, (yes, very small) that could not deliver the type of bombload or interdiction necessary to cover the landings.

The reality is that if they could have done it, you know that they would have (Gotta love those wacky Nazis)....but they chose not to for good reason.

Of course, I am not saying that it would not make a fun simulations. Say, what is Gary Grisgby doing these days?

This brings up a question I've had in my mind for sometime. Operation Sealion called for a landing on the SOutheast coast of England, where the channel was narrow, presumably so they could ferry across ships and mine the channel. It also would be right into the teeth of the English defense. Interestingly this is exactly what the Germans expected the allies to do on D-Day.

Would it not be better to do what the Allies did and pick a landing site that, while accessible, was less strongly defended and not expected to be the point of attack. Was there a better place for the Germans to land?

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Artwork graciously provided by Dixie

(in reply to crsutton)
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