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Nobody's perfect - 1/17/2009 12:21:18 AM   
skausmaus

 

Posts: 7
Joined: 1/16/2009
Status: offline 		I have just discovered AT. Great game Victor. This will stay on my hard drive forever.

However please leave the back story of your scenarios to others. In End of a Union you write that "in remembrance of September 11th the Caliphate has declared war on the European Union". I realise it is a Fantasy setting, (and apparently could happen in seven years time), but please be more sensitive.

I presume you are alluding to the destruction of the Twin Towers and not the overthrow of the democratically elected government of Chile by a U.S. backed military coup; which led to the deaths of nearly three thousand people after September 11th 1973.

To imply a unified, Arab dominated, Islamic state, would commemorate mass murder by launching an attack on a neighbour is deeply offensive. I do not know where to begin with how wrong the scenario's premise is. Osama bin Laden is a menace to Muslims as well as non-Muslims. Why would Europe (minus the U.K.) be targeted by a newly created Islamic superpower, even if that superpower adopts an extreme Sunni philosophy? The United States of America, the United Kingdom and Israel are more likely to be targeted, as they currently pursue policies that lead to the persecution, terrorising and deaths of Muslims.

Victor, you are a great games designer. Other posts have (rightly) criticised the manual, but that is not your strenth either. I will sing your praises for the pleasure you have brought me as a gamer, but writing scenario back stories is another area for you to avoid (please).

Otherwise keep up the good work, and the scenario is fun to play by the way.
Post #: 1
RE: Nobody's perfect - 1/17/2009 1:19:11 AM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		I suggest this get locked or more appropriately deleted.

(in reply to skausmaus)
Post #: 2
RE: Nobody's perfect - 1/17/2009 1:53:17 AM   
Grymme

 

Posts: 1821
Joined: 12/16/2007
Status: offline 		Yeah. Writing positive things about this game is really offensive. Better yet. Lets lock him up in GITMO for 6 years, torture him a little, find out that hes innocent and then release him with a thanks matey. After all, he might think things we dont agree with. Damned this leftextremist mainstream media ;)

Seriously Skaus Maus. I do see your point. But maybe you are overreacting a little, and i am not sure you can draw those far-reaching conclusions from his one sentence in one fictional svenario. Attacking Vics entire "back story-writing abilities" is really brutal.....

(in reply to Twotribes)
Post #: 3
RE: Nobody's perfect - 1/17/2009 2:44:02 AM   
explorer2

 

Posts: 465
Joined: 11/30/2007
Status: offline 		OK, since we seem to be getting political here, I'm going to chime in.
No comment on Vic's back story writing ability.
I just want to add a note to all you who aren't from USA that we didn't all support Bush's approach to the world. We share your same gripes. It actually made some of us very upset, thus you'll note, we have a president (in a few days) that some of us hope will be VERY different.
Yes, there are some of us who are paranoid, jingoistic, mean spirited, and just plain dumb. But we're not all that way, and I hope things get considerably better soon, both here and throughout the world.

But isn't it great that we live in a world now where via the internet and a really fun game we can talk to each other and even though we like making war with pixels, we tend to be extremely friendly towards each other, from wherever we call home.

(Now this post will probably offend someone too and be deleted in short order. Oh well)

(in reply to Grymme)
Post #: 4
RE: Nobody's perfect - 1/17/2009 4:37:26 AM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		NO POLITICS allowed. BASIC BOARD RULE. But hey violate the rules all you want. Get in your cheap shots while the rest of us follow the rules.

(in reply to explorer2)
Post #: 5
RE: Nobody's perfect - 1/17/2009 6:21:36 AM   
explorer2

 

Posts: 465
Joined: 11/30/2007
Status: offline 		That's probably a really good rule. THanks for reminding me. I'll make sure I stick to it no matter how tempting.

(in reply to Twotribes)
Post #: 6
RE: Nobody's perfect - 1/17/2009 8:22:52 AM   
Grymme

 

Posts: 1821
Joined: 12/16/2007
Status: offline 		That actually happened to a countryman of mine (swede). I dont se how any american can be offended by that story. Maybe the swedes though...

I dont agree with Skaus Maus conclusions. I do think it should be fully within his rights (according to the board rules) to make the comment that this backstory offends him and exlplain why. Its on the edge though. I think the second part of his comment was unessescary and am sure Vic would understand what he meant anyway. I think Twotribes atempt to censur the board of a post in which the main point was not political is offensive.

Explorer. I fully understand your situation. My point was more directed towards the flagwaving southerners among you who tries to censur the world of information not held by themselves. Since i did not see the main point as political. I do agree that its getting political, prob to some degree my fault, and will try to stop.... although.aaarghh....its really hard. 

(in reply to explorer2)
Post #: 7
RE: Nobody's perfect - 1/17/2009 10:09:15 AM   
Widell


Posts: 913
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: Trollhättan, Sweden
Status: offline 		OK - Let's stick to something (aka not local, regional or world politics) that we can reach some kind of consensus (stereotypical Swedish, I know) and come back on the original issue raised skas maus (obviously he must be extremely upset about this as it was his very first post on the boards) - Maybe someone could update the scenario wording and take away the reference to 9/11, and the issue is resolved? The rest of us can stop arguing about US foreign policy and focus on discussing this excellent little game which is the topic of this forum.

Just a humble proposal on my behalf, and not to be seen as critisism of anyone's posts or opinions...


_____________________________


(in reply to Grymme)
Post #: 8
RE: Nobody's perfect - 1/17/2009 10:48:28 AM   
Scott_WAR

 

Posts: 1020
Joined: 2/24/2005
Status: offline 		Be careful stereotyping the south Grymme. Making false assumptions is never a wise move. Now where are you from? I would like to judge the whole nation by one individuals viewpoints.

< Message edited by Scott_WAR -- 1/17/2009 11:20:35 AM >

(in reply to Widell)
Post #: 9
RE: Nobody's perfect - 1/17/2009 12:37:09 PM   
Grymme

 

Posts: 1821
Joined: 12/16/2007
Status: offline 		Scott: You are of course right. I might clarify that the asumption based on the information i had was not regarding all southerners, rather a specific specimen. I in fact was not judging an nation (Dixie isnt a nation is it) but that specimen. 

My nationality is stated in one of my earlier posts in this thread. You can make fun of us as much you want, i promise not be pissed.

Widell. Always being the better swede ;) I envy your calm.

(in reply to Scott_WAR)
Post #: 10
RE: Nobody's perfect - 1/17/2009 1:15:01 PM   
srndac

 

Posts: 95
Joined: 12/13/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Widell

OK - Let's stick to something (aka not local, regional or world politics) that we can reach some kind of consensus (stereotypical Swedish, I know) and come back on the original issue raised skas maus (obviously he must be extremely upset about this as it was his very first post on the boards) - Maybe someone could update the scenario wording and take away the reference to 9/11, and the issue is resolved? The rest of us can stop arguing about US foreign policy and focus on discussing this excellent little game which is the topic of this forum.

Just a humble proposal on my behalf, and not to be seen as critisism of anyone's posts or opinions...



Okay, how about:
"Following the withdrawal of the USA and it's coalition partners in 2010, Iraq and Afghanistan have fallen under the influence of Mullahs, which used the 'defeat' of the West to install themselves in the seats of government - following on the example of Iran.
"With their influence increased, Mullahs began work on their next step - Israel, who lost the support of the USA (and most of the other allies) during the previous offensives against Gaza and West Bank. All Arab nations of the region, except Jordan (which stayed neutral) and including (Mullah-ruled) Iran, Iraq and Afghanistan, joined into a coalition determined to take out Israel, who had no chance against them, and fell under their onslaught in 2012.
"After this victory, there was no way that the unification of all Islamic nations could be stopped, and the Mullahs, with their prestige in heavens, proclaimed the formation of an all-Arabic Caliphate, with <Insert Name> at the head."

And then continue with the rest of the scenario description.

Cheers!
srndac

P.S. oh yeah, I forgot: (insert right before the last paragraph above)
"Meanwhile, the great economic crisis of 2009 has gone on, destroying whatever remained of the US economy, and by 2012, most of the American Army and Navy had to be stored away until the crisis has passed, therefore considerably reducing the US power.
"The economic crisis has also hit the Islamic nations that relied mostly on oil exports. With unemployment and poverty steadily growing, Mullahs soon had enourmous numbers of recruits from all over Arab-speaking world, who were ready and willing to find their fortunes anywhere - including on the battlefields."

< Message edited by srndac -- 1/17/2009 1:39:03 PM >

(in reply to Widell)
Post #: 11
RE: Nobody's perfect - 1/17/2009 1:25:54 PM   
Scott_WAR

 

Posts: 1020
Joined: 2/24/2005
Status: offline 		In that case it isnt a problem Grymme. In fact I live in Alabama, the heart of the south, and I get to be in the painful position of both loathing many of my fellow southerners for being living stereotypes, while at the same time taking offense at the stereotype the south has. Its tough to defend the south from those that think we are all bible thumping, shotgun toting, tobacco chewing rednecks, when you personally know many people that fit that exact description. But we arent all like that and I find it impossible not to point that out at certain times.

(in reply to srndac)
Post #: 12
RE: Nobody's perfect - 1/17/2009 1:39:19 PM   
Grymme

 

Posts: 1821
Joined: 12/16/2007
Status: offline 		Scott_War: i understand your predicament. Its not easy. The most important thing about prejudice (which i think everyone has to some degree). Is to realize that they are just that.

Twotribes: I understand if you feel to some degree that i am badgering you. That is true, im not so happy with it either. So i promise myself that i will not be mean to you anymore as long as you behave politely and dont insult or attack Vic or other people on the forum. Feel fre to use CAPSLOCK as much as you want. Il keep quiet.


(in reply to Scott_WAR)
Post #: 13
RE: Nobody's perfect - 1/17/2009 1:39:50 PM   
Widell


Posts: 913
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: Trollhättan, Sweden
Status: offline 		There you go! I bet there will be someone that has an opinion about something, but then again, Nobody's perfect as the headline of this thread says. Now, we only need to find someone that makes the update and post it in the scenariobank, alternatively persuade Vic to change it and include the updated scenario in a future patch of the game.

quote:

ORIGINAL:  Grymme
Widell. Always being the better swede ;) I envy your calm.


It's easy to look calm when no one sees the look on your face or your body language.... Seriously, I used to act more aggressive on forums (At least that's what I seem to recall), but now, being a grumpy, middle aged, white collar with a house and family, I try to do the following: Never, repeat, never post on any, repeat, any forum when under the influence of anything other than coffee (For the record, I stick to beer, wine and the occasional Gin & Tonic, so no heavier stuff implied ), and secondly, if I read something that gets me worked up, I don't post a response immediately, but walk away for an hour or so before responding. Chances are someone else stuck their head out, or the whole thing just died, and sometime I respond, but with less adrenaline and a lower pulse in general. Third, and maybe most important, it's extremely hard debating sensitive issues between people that are not native in English, and even the native English speakers are hard sometimes as they use slang, or expressions that communicate badly when translated = Always ask for clarification before digging trenches and stocking up ammo for the offensive.

It's of course totally different if anyone jumps on us Swedes or our country .


_____________________________


(in reply to srndac)
Post #: 14
RE: Nobody's perfect - 1/17/2009 5:37:11 PM   
Vic


Posts: 8262
Joined: 5/17/2004
Status: offline 		Its a scenario description for a fictional scenario for a game. not a political manifesto or statement. 
No insults intendended, no apologies offered.
Happy gaming!

kind regards,
Vic

(in reply to Widell)
Post #: 15
RE: Nobody's perfect - 1/17/2009 10:42:39 PM   
skausmaus

 

Posts: 7
Joined: 1/16/2009
Status: offline 		OK First things first. I did not mean to cause offense. As Widell guessed, I was upset enough to contribute my first post. However, I realise that I should have taken time to reflect as Widell (again) suggests; "walk away for an hour or so before responding".

As I inferred in my thread heading - "Nobody's Perfect", I did not for one minute think that Vic was intending to insult anyone either. I guess what I was hoping, was to start a discussion along the lines of; the quality of the graphics are irrelevant, the manual's ease of use is irrelevant, the intuitive interface (or not) is irrelevant, and the back story is irrelevant if the game engine is good enough; but it sure helps ! 

As a gamer of 40+ years experience I have always been excited by the underlying engine, or rule set. There is a beauty in a well thought out and consistent vision. I often find taking part in a high quality game more satisfying then winning the game. However, I think perfection is worth aiming for and I am sure that this game (and it's presentation) will just keep getting better as quality control issues are addressed through patches and revisions. I think srndac's rewording of the scenario is excellent by the way.

The thoughtless back story could not keep me from playing this game or indeed that particular scenario. I can see that it is in many ways a modern re-working of the 15th century situation in Europe. I guess I am just a little over sensitive to constant glib and ignorant remarks about Islam or Arab culture, as I am a UK citizen and we have to live with a mainstream media culture of remarkable ignorance.

Ironically it is gaming and wargaming in particular that has helped me learn a lot about the world and Two Tribes remark about no politics seems a bit strange. After all it was Clausewitz who called war the continuation of politics by other means. However if you meant no politics on this gaming forum, then point taken. Over the many happy years wargaming I have played with all sorts from military hardware geeks, to stoned bikers, to out and out racists, to schoolboys, retirees and occasionally women! I know we all have different opinions and "the game" is the constant in our lives.

I am looking forward to meeting you all the battlefield, just as soon as I feel confident enough to not be challenged by the A.I. and can confidently say I understand how this great game works.

Happy gaming to all.

< Message edited by skaus maus -- 1/17/2009 10:50:14 PM >

(in reply to Vic)
Post #: 16
RE: Nobody's perfect - 1/17/2009 11:11:34 PM   
Widell


Posts: 913
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: Trollhättan, Sweden
Status: offline 		No problem skaus maus - Seems like we landed this one nicely, and you're more than welcome to the AT community. Don't hesitate to get into the PBEM's. Since the game is still pretty new on the market, there's a good mix of players with some very skilled ones (Look at the seille vs george AAR from the East Front. Simply amazing!) to new players looking to learn.


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(in reply to skausmaus)
Post #: 17
RE: Nobody's perfect - 1/18/2009 8:51:30 PM   
Tagwyn

 

Posts: 58
Joined: 10/23/2006
Status: offline 		Widell: I would just jump on female Swedes!!! t

(in reply to Widell)
Post #: 18
RE: Nobody's perfect - 1/20/2009 4:39:39 PM   
Widell


Posts: 913
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: Trollhättan, Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tagwyn
Widell: I would just jump on female Swedes!!! t


As long as you stay off my wife, daughter and mother, you're welcome...

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(in reply to Tagwyn)
Post #: 19
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