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Weapon Damage - 1/17/2009 11:47:58 PM

Vacuusimago

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This isn't a whine thread.. I REALLY, REALLY want to get into this game.. but.. could someone please explain if there is a fix, or a reason, for a shotgun doing.. 2 damage.. to a guy in a t-shirt? Or the head? Does worn armor doesnt show on enemies? I just cant go through an entire game that plays out 6 damage at a time. T.T

I get some normal damage, sometimes, but it just seems _VERY_ hard. And the only good shots I ever do are spending a lot of ammo with a burst shot.

Could someone offer me some wisdom on this? I've poked around quite a lot, but havent seen any difinitive answers.. and it just seems that a game like this would have caught an error like that in alpha testing.

I do have the beta patch installed. Thank you. :)

Post #: 1

RE: Weapon Damage - 1/18/2009 12:47:56 AM

Reinforce

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Body Armor dosn't show on tangos.

Buckshot which is what I assume your useing does very little damage, Slugs do great damage problem is hitting anything with a shotgun. Also bullets have an armor penetration value that players can't see AP haveing the best HP/OC haveing the worest if you don't get threw a targets armor you'll get the 2 damage. Becouse your hitting the armor and the -2 is from the impact.

Your best bet in a stock un-modded game is use the Red Bullets throw out the Shotguns and use Assault Rifles or better. Aim for the torso, Alot of people say aim for the legs but I find that miss's more. Only aim low at the legs if your going to fire in auto as the weapons tent to climb. Also it's highly recommended you start on the Newbie level to get used to how the game plays befor jumping into the higher modes.

Much love,
Reinforce

(in reply to Vacuusimago)

Post #: 2

RE: Weapon Damage - 1/18/2009 12:54:04 AM

Vacuusimago

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<3 Excellent. I'm playing with your mod, actually, Reinforce. That's what threw me off a bit.. I think... it did show in JA2 if enemies were using body armor. It just seems odd with the level of detail that you wouldnt be able to tell at all if they were using body armor. I just figure they had on Mithril wifebeaters. XD

Thank you Reinforce!

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Post #: 3

RE: Weapon Damage - 1/18/2009 12:59:39 AM

Reinforce

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Ah, Basic rule is Militia have class 1, Soldiers are in class 2 and Guardsmen are all armored up in Class 3 with pants for the most part. Everyones got a chance to have head gear. Sometimes they don't sometimes they do. Seems to be a random value for yes no there. Oddly they don't look like they have a helmet but if you shoot them in the head enough the little helmet will fly off, It's rather funny to see.

The Merc sector guards you hire to protect places show there gear. But they use the same model as your Mercs, It's dynamic sadly the Joe Who NPCs arn't that cool so they get Generic preset models... makes me sad to be honest and drove me crazy when I started playing this myself.

Much Love,
Reinforce

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Post #: 4

RE: Weapon Damage - 1/18/2009 1:15:51 AM

Vacuusimago

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It's.. UNBELIEVABLE if you dont know what's going on. Hahah. XD If they just made.. some kind of.. MODEL or something for it. ANY indication. ANY. XD And besides, they pretty much ruled out.. what.. MOST of the weapons in the game? A good fraction? Who would carry around an SMG or pistol if you cant find AP ammo now? You cant really plan what to use on who.

It was kinda fun trying to tough it out with those low-end weapons in the first game. Shotguns were soooo king. ,3

(in reply to Reinforce)

Post #: 5

RE: Weapon Damage - 1/18/2009 11:21:24 AM

LimeyBugger

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vacuusimago

Shotguns were soooo king. ,3

I have to agree with you there. In JA2, shotguns had a distinct place in your weapon choices in the early part of the game. In HG, however, their place seems rather - well, they don't have one. I'd be very interested to hear from their play-testers (assuming it was play-tested) as to the role of shotguns in the design of the game.

That said, at least pistols have some use later in the game. A .357 as a backup weapon can save your sniper's butt, if someone pops out from a corner at point-blank range.

I think Reinforce is right - just trash the useless things. They have no place in HG combat.

(in reply to Vacuusimago)

Post #: 6

RE: Weapon Damage - 1/18/2009 1:08:25 PM

Hard Sarge

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From: garfield hts ohio usa
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I got to disagree, Shotguns have there place in real combat, the same way they do in HG, just use them correctly, and they work like they do in real life

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Post #: 7

RE: Weapon Damage - 1/18/2009 1:37:09 PM

LimeyBugger

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I'm not clear on what you mean by shotguns "having a place" in HG combat. High AP cost, low damage, and short effective range makes them pretty useless in the context of HG combat.

Perhaps you can provide an example where a shotgun is the "weapon of choice" in HG combat?

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Post #: 8

RE: Weapon Damage - 1/18/2009 1:58:00 PM

Reinforce

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I avoid shotguns like the black plague, They are more trouble then there worth. Heck even a handgun will serve you better.. and that's kind of sad. I was hopeing shotguns would be great for close combat but your better off with an assault rifle for that too. Given they don't miss at 5 meters as much as the good old shottie does. I'd also like to know of a time when shotguns come into there own. Best use I have for them is knocking people over.

Much Love,
Reinforce

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Post #: 9

RE: Weapon Damage - 1/18/2009 2:31:51 PM

R@S

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I agree with Hard Sarge on this one. Shotguns are useful, but only in the beginning of the game. Once the enemy starts wearing good armor they are pretty useless, unless you are close and do a double head-shot, first shooting off the helmet and then get a clean head-shot.

Remember to use a merc that are good with shotguns. There seems to be another factor with accuracy, getting used to a weapon. When dealing with shotguns, you have to fire 30-50 shots before you get any good hits with it. This is true with most weapons. This is used in Brigade E5 and 7.62 and it's only my guess that it's used in this game as well. Could be another one of my supersticions

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Post #: 10

RE: Weapon Damage - 1/18/2009 2:52:52 PM

LimeyBugger

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quote:

ORIGINAL: R@S

I agree with Hard Sarge on this one. Shotguns are useful, but only in the beginning of the game. Once the enemy starts wearing good armor they are pretty useless, unless you are close and do a double head-shot, first shooting off the helmet and then get a clean head-shot.

Couple of points:
1. You won't have enough APs to get off 2 shots. Not that I've seen, anyhow. Not with a head shot, which pretty much requires AP expenditure for aiming.
2. The same can be accomplished more reliably with a decent handgun. A couple of shots to the face with a .357 can do wonders.
3. Hard Sarge didn't say, "in the beginning of the game" - your agreement with him is in something he didn't state.

quote:

Remember to use a merc that are good with shotguns. There seems to be another factor with accuracy, getting used to a weapon.

That might make shotgun usage suck less - but they still suck. Decent handgun and you're better off in 99.999% of the cases.

quote:

When dealing with shotguns, you have to fire 30-50 shots before you get any good hits with it. This is true with most weapons.

I disagree - that's not "true with most weapons". From what I have seen, shotguns have consistently lower damage than almost any handgun (maybe better than a rubbish .38 w/o AP rounds, but that's about it), and most certainly lower than _ANYTHING_ better. Short range? Decent handgun or SMG is far better. Long range - you'd be better off throwing rocks.

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Post #: 11

RE: Weapon Damage - 1/18/2009 3:10:20 PM

Hard Sarge

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in real life, you use shotguns in close, dense areas (Jungles, huts, houses), Shotguns have about the same range as most pistols, and most people can hit a target with a Shotgun that they will miss with a pistol (Pistols take a lot of time and training to get good with, most people can't hit the side of a barn with a Pistol)

(I rated out High Expert with a Pistol and most other weapons, expert with rifle, the only thing I didn't rate highly with was the LAAW, but I do not think I was ever seen as being "normal")

in game, when close, or in tight areas, and got a few enemies in front of you, a shotgun is good, fire at there legs, and you can knock down all of them, depending on the spread, you can hit 3 to 5 guys with a shot (use buckshot)

if only one target, aim for the head and finish it off

in a pointblank fire, I would rather have Morah and her tripped out Uzi, but Dragon and his shutgun is 2nd

in my current game, I taking my time, and trying to see how well I can train my troops before the 2nd phase kicks in, and I still got a shotgun as a backup, also have a few pistols in my backpacks (that fancy shotgun should be showing up in the store shortly, or, with the Maruders i am about to ambush)

also odd, I don't really see any combat shotguns in the game, we got Military Shotguns, but not combat, most I seen were sawed off and doublebarrels, in game we got a lot of full size guns, that defeat the whole idea of the weapon

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Post #: 12

RE: Weapon Damage - 1/18/2009 3:15:51 PM

Hard Sarge

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From: garfield hts ohio usa
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you want to use a shotgun at long range, go ahead, but most people in combat would be laffing at you, I think the Tangos in the game would be snickering too

you know there was a mistake with the ammo types ? with Buckshot being slug and slug being buckshot ?

the real trouble with the game is, it is too easy to use a pistol, when it is not that easy to do so in real life

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Post #: 13

RE: Weapon Damage - 1/18/2009 3:32:40 PM

R@S

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As Hard Sarge said, they are useful if used correctly. I agree with that. I think that they are only useful in the beginning of the game. Is that better LimeyBugger? You can use another merc to first shoot off the helmet and then finish him off with the shotgun. It's waht I do when presented with this problem. Have you not noticed that you get more hits the longer you use a weapon? Then it could be one of my supersticions.

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Post #: 14

RE: Weapon Damage - 1/18/2009 4:22:05 PM

LimeyBugger

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

Pistols take a lot of time and training to get good with, most people can't hit the side of a barn with a Pistol

I'm not sure how this is relevant. After all, we're supposedly dealing with trained mercenaries, not some plonker picked up off the streets, right?

Anyone working as a mercenary should be trained in a variety of small arms - so I think this statement only serves to obfuscate the issue.

quote:

(I rated out High Expert with a Pistol and most other weapons, expert with rifle, the only thing I didn't rate highly with was the LAAW, but I do not think I was ever seen as being "normal")

*shrug* I've only used a .22 for shooting gophers on my grandfather's farm. Only fired a pistol once, and couldn't hit anything with it. I don't claim to be an expert in weapons, unless you're talking about staff or tonfa.

quote:

in game, when close, or in tight areas, and got a few enemies in front of you, a shotgun is good, fire at there legs, and you can knock down all of them, depending on the spread, you can hit 3 to 5 guys with a shot (use buckshot)

Grenade. Nuff said. Knocks them over and kills one. Shotgun isn't the "weapon of choice" in this case.

And for that matter, your merc is still toast, as the 3-5 guys pick themselves up and fill your shotgun toting merc full of lead.

Or better yet, every soldier's favorite weapon, his legs. Run and lead them into the barrels of your buddies.

quote:

if only one target, aim for the head and finish it off

Given the crappy hit rate in the game, a decent pistol is your friend - you can get off a couple of shots before you have to hit "end turn".

quote:

in a pointblank fire, I would rather have Morah and her tripped out Uzi, but Dragon and his shutgun is 2nd

Bizon with a knife. Far less likely that the poor bugger will be alive when he's done his APs.

As a second choice, I'd go with someone with a MAC-10 (seems to do much better damage). A burst or two will kill pretty much any opponent.

(in reply to Hard Sarge)

Post #: 15

RE: Weapon Damage - 1/18/2009 4:36:32 PM

LimeyBugger

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R@S,

Well, my main complaint about shotguns is that their usefulness in the game is _VERY_ short-lived. Once you can get your first shipment from DJ, you should be upgrading from it. That isn't to say that shotguns are _ENTIRELY_ useless - just that their usefulness is so narrow that it's not really worth mentioning.

Take this in contrast to JA2, where a shotgun could consistently deal out horrific damage at close range, making them quite handy for about 1/2 the game - using them when sneaking around buildings at night. They had a discernible purpose in the game, where in HG, they're more of a "oh crap, I don't have any ammo for anything else - better give him something".

In HG, even as a backup weapon, shotguns are pretty poor. Heavy and take up a double-slot in the backpack. Compare that with a decent pistol, and I'm sure most people would agree that a Colt Python is far more useful for those unexpected close encounters, than a shotgun.

To clarify, they're not _ENTIRELY_ useless. Sure, they can have _SOME_ use. But given the game mechanics, you're better off with a decent pistol in nearly every case.

(in reply to R@S)

Post #: 16

RE: Weapon Damage - 1/18/2009 4:52:44 PM

Hard Sarge

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From: garfield hts ohio usa
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LimeyBugger

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

Pistols take a lot of time and training to get good with, most people can't hit the side of a barn with a Pistol

I'm not sure how this is relevant. After all, we're supposedly dealing with trained mercenaries, not some plonker picked up off the streets, right?

Anyone working as a mercenary should be trained in a variety of small arms - so I think this statement only serves to obfuscate the issue.

if you have followed any of my posts, you know I don't think that of these guys could get a job as a Merk, I don't think half of them could get a job as a night watchmen, but as to your point, it takes a lot of training and skill to be good with a Pistol, takes a afternoon or two to get good with a shotgun

quote:

(I rated out High Expert with a Pistol and most other weapons, expert with rifle, the only thing I didn't rate highly with was the LAAW, but I do not think I was ever seen as being "normal")

*shrug* I've only used a .22 for shooting gophers on my grandfather's farm. Only fired a pistol once, and couldn't hit anything with it. I don't claim to be an expert in weapons, unless you're talking about staff or tonfa.

well, I was rated as High Expert with some of these, and Expert with most of the rest, so am saying from what I know about using them, but this is a game, still it should be based on what really happens, not what happens in the movies or in somebodies mind

quote:

in game, when close, or in tight areas, and got a few enemies in front of you, a shotgun is good, fire at there legs, and you can knock down all of them, depending on the spread, you can hit 3 to 5 guys with a shot (use buckshot)

Grenade. Nuff said. Knocks them over and kills one. Shotgun isn't the "weapon of choice" in this case.

your a fool then (in real life, game you can get away with it, since you can reload)

And for that matter, your merc is still toast, as the 3-5 guys pick themselves up and fill your shotgun toting merc full of lead.

they havn't gotten my Merks yet

Or better yet, every soldier's favorite weapon, his legs. Run and lead them into the barrels of your buddies.

I don't believe in running, not how I was trained or bought up, but so saying, I also believe in supporting my team members, so if you see one, there is another one near by

quote:

if only one target, aim for the head and finish it off

Given the crappy hit rate in the game, a decent pistol is your friend - you can get off a couple of shots before you have to hit "end turn".

odd, I don't seem to have the lousy firing skills that you do, my guys tend to hit there targets when they are close

first map, I got 2 kills with first shot, and got a cripple with the guy inside the hut with the 2nd, one run, Venom, put 3 rounds into a guys head at point blank range, only to have him turn and shoot her

still, I think this go down into play style, I can get kills with the shotgun, so use it, you don't like it, so you don't use it

quote:

in a pointblank fire, I would rather have Morah and her tripped out Uzi, but Dragon and his shutgun is 2nd

Bizon with a knife. Far less likely that the poor bugger will be alive when he's done his APs.

as I said, play style, I don't like using knifes, but I can agree with it

As a second choice, I'd go with someone with a MAC-10 (seems to do much better damage). A burst or two will kill pretty much any opponent.

I like the Uzi better, the MAC don't seem to do the damage it should, and you get a better burst rate out of it

which also as has been said, once you start running into Guardsmen, all bets are off, those guys are armored tanks, I put 2 7.62x39 and 4 5.56x45's into one guy, only to drop him to bad

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Post #: 17

RE: Weapon Damage - 1/18/2009 5:05:54 PM

Hard Sarge

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From: garfield hts ohio usa
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In HG, even as a backup weapon, shotguns are pretty poor. Heavy and take up a double-slot in the backpack. Compare that with a decent pistol, and I'm sure most people would agree that a Colt Python is far more useful for those unexpected close encounters, than a shotgun.

To clarify, they're not _ENTIRELY_ useless. Sure, they can have _SOME_ use. But given the game mechanics, you're better off with a decent pistol in nearly every case.

still have to say, it depends on play style and what you want or believe in, some people are going to be hunting and buying the next best pistol every time it shows up, others are going to stick with what they like, or have had some luck with, same with Rifles or assult Rifles or sniper Rifles

I am about ready to take the base and the palace, I just now dropped the Odd Russian Sniper rifle you can buy at the beginning (and that is only because, I found a Val, and the guy with the Rifle is not really set up to be a crack shot)

my guy, had that weapon to start with, and then found a better more modern rifle so handed it down (washanving trouble finding ammo for it too) in fact, most of my troops have the weapon I picked for them at start (IE I had the weapon when I hired them)

most times, when I change out weapons, it is more based on ammo, then on what the weapon does or doesn't do

to be honest, in this kind of fighting, I wouldn't want a shotgun either, road to the airport is the only map that I think it really would be much use as a primary weapon

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Post #: 18

RE: Weapon Damage - 1/18/2009 5:29:31 PM

LimeyBugger

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quote:

if you have followed any of my posts, you know I don't think that of these guys could get a job as a Merk, I don't think half of them could get a job as a night watchmen

I miss the good ole JA2 days of Gasket, Biff, Flo and Razor. Mercenaries who didn't give any illusions as to their qualifications.

quote:

but as to your point, it takes a lot of training and skill to be good with a Pistol, takes a afternoon or two to get good with a shotgun

Hrm... makes me wonder about the London Met coppers. 7 shots in the head to take down a nefarious Brazilian Arab terrorist. I really wish they'd have published how many times they MISSED.

quote:

Grenade. Nuff said. Knocks them over and kills one. Shotgun isn't the "weapon of choice" in this case.

your a fool then (in real life, game you can get away with it, since you can reload)

Er... ok, I've killed one and done a decent amount of damage to his buddies. Compared to your shotgun, which knocks them over, but leaves them with little more than bruises and scratches. I'm the fool?

quote:

And for that matter, your merc is still toast, as the 3-5 guys pick themselves up and fill your shotgun toting merc full of lead.

they havn't gotten my Merks yet

That's only because you can reload.

quote:

Or better yet, every soldier's favorite weapon, his legs. Run and lead them into the barrels of your buddies.

I don't believe in running, not how I was trained or bought up, but so saying, I also believe in supporting my team members, so if you see one, there is another one near by

I can't even begin to guess who trained you. Running away is a pretty standard infantry tactic - FM 7-85 (Ranger Handbook) - 6-1,c,2 - "(2) If the enemy does make contact, the security element then engages the enemy, trying to deceive him as to the size of the ranger force and its direction of movement. After breaking contact, the security force divides into small groups and moves to a rally point to rejoin the main force.". Without going into details, the Ranger methodology is to basically "choose the time and place" of any engagement. If they don't like that engagement, then they basically shoot-and-scoot away.

Yes, it's official doctrine of the US Army Rangers to "run away". I don't know who trained you, but your training seems to be in contrast with Ranger training - and most special forces I've read about. Maybe small unit tactics isn't a big part of supply depot training.

quote:

which also as has been said, once you start running into Guardsmen, all bets are off, those guys are armored tanks, I put 2 7.62x39 and 4 5.56x45's into one guy, only to drop him to bad

Guardsmen are nuts. Generally I found that I need 2-3 mercs firing on one to have a fair chance of killing him. That's with end-game equipment. I think it was a cop-out on the part of the developers. Rather than put more work into their AI or map design, they just made them armoured juggernauts.

(in reply to Hard Sarge)

Post #: 19

RE: Weapon Damage - 1/18/2009 6:19:09 PM

Hard Sarge

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From: garfield hts ohio usa
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yes, if you think the right choice is to toss a nade when you standing next to someone, they yes you are a fool

and I am a Marine, we don't run away like the rangers and we don't believe in that kind of training, you run, you normally die, and for the area you are talking about, that is not combat training, we are assult troops, shock troops, we fight (when I got out, I was recuited by the Army, I could join the Rangers as soon as I signed the paper, any Ranger would have to go though training and pass bootcamp to become a Marine)

but as I am trying to say, the Green hat guys, and the Rangers are not set up to fight toe to toe, that is not there job, that is our job, and before you try to get smart again, I was also trained by the Green hats, so I know there style also (the Green hats preach that unless you are setting up a raid, if you have to fire your weapon, somebody screwed up)

but back to the point, last battle just fought/played, my shotgun did 10 points of damage to the target, while my 7.62 and 5.56 both did 2 points, which to be honest, none of them made me very happy, but combined they worn the guy out

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Post #: 20

RE: Weapon Damage - 1/18/2009 6:32:44 PM

Edgewise

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Shotguns:

They fire multiple bullets when using buckshot. At medium range or on a near 'miss' you will get only a partial hit, IE some of these projectiles land some don't. Individually, they do very little damage, collectively they can do a great deal, a 1 shot kill. Shooting at longer ranges, a shotgun will be less than ideal unless given to someone with low accuracy who'd miss all the time without a shotgun. The best case use imo is when you fire down a narrow kill-zone with multiple targets in the blast path. You might hit one in the head, another in the leg, and so on, causing all kinds of grief. When you hit a well armored target, few if any of the individual shots will penetrate the armor, but the impact will still knock alot of stamina out of the target. Not to mention, shotguns have a knockback ability when enough of the shot lands sending the target flying backward. You will almost always destroy a door/window/exploding barrel you are aiming at if using a shotgun within range. So... shotguns can be good. Only a couple maps I could not solo with a SMG/shotgun/grenade combo.

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Post #: 21

RE: Weapon Damage - 1/18/2009 6:32:46 PM

Mraah

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Reinforce,

If you decide to mod a shotgun then might I suggest the "double tap" feature we talked about when I used that for the M1 garand.

I think if we gave the shotgun a ROF of 120, with a 2-shot single fire attribute with the same AP cost then it might improve it's fun-factor.

Frankly, I wouldn't see the change being unrealistic.

Oh, you know, what about a sawed-off shotgun ... double tap with half the AP cost?

hmmm,

Rob

EDIT NOTE ... BTW, I'm going to look at adding an ammo type "flechette" for the M79 gl ... I haven't look at it yet but it might be doable.

< Message edited by Mraah -- 1/18/2009 6:35:25 PM >

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Post #: 22

RE: Weapon Damage - 1/18/2009 6:50:50 PM

Edgewise

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mraah ....If you decide to mod a shotgun then might I suggest the "double tap" feature....

How about a double barrel shotgun?

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Post #: 23

RE: Weapon Damage - 1/18/2009 7:12:14 PM

LimeyBugger

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

yes, if you think the right choice is to toss a nade when you standing next to someone, they yes you are a fool

You said "close", and later gave an example of "point blank" separately. I assumed, quite reasonably, that the first example and the second weren't referring to the same situation. Now that you're stating that it's "standing next to", I am confused even more. At point blank, you're not going to get any spreading of the shot - so you should only be hitting one target.

If it were real life - and you came face-to-face with 3 armed and armoured opponents - well, you're probably dead.

quote:

and I am a Marine, we don't run away like the rangers and we don't believe in that kind of training, you run, you normally die, and for the area you are talking about, that is not combat training, we are assult troops, shock troops, we fight (when I got out, I was recuited by the Army, I could join the Rangers as soon as I signed the paper, any Ranger would have to go though training and pass bootcamp to become a Marine)

I'm not familiar with the intricacies of the US military training requirements. However, I suspect that it has more to do with politics between the various branches of the military than the skills one learns in service. I don't see how a Marine trained soldier could walk straight into Ranger corps, since he knows little of woodcraft, patrol, etc skills which they focus on.

quote:

but as I am trying to say, the Green hat guys, and the Rangers are not set up to fight toe to toe, that is not there job, that is our job, and before you try to get smart again, I was also trained by the Green hats, so I know there style also (the Green hats preach that unless you are setting up a raid, if you have to fire your weapon, somebody screwed up)

That's quite honestly the first time I've ever heard of the Green Berets as "the Green hat guys". Due to good marketing and an easy to remember name, most people remember those "green hat guys" as "Green Berets". For an ex-Marine, your choice of terminology is very odd. Dunno - maybe it's me, but most service folks I know are quite specific as to their references. Black Watch aren't referred to as, "those guys in skirts"... unless one has a suicidal streak.

But hey, if you say you're an ex-Marine, then who am I to question that? This is the Internet. Men are men, women are men, and children are FBI agents.

Yes, I know - all elite/special forces generally have specific roles they train for and specialize in. SAS may be great for sneaking and raiding, but wouldn't be your first choice for long range recon patrolling. I chose the reference to Rangers because I thought their methodology was the closest to HG - you _SHOULD_ be raiding - choosing the time and place of combat and hitting your opponent with devastating force. That's how it should work - if they had the engine sorted. Sadly however, 6 mercs vs. 20 comp soldiers doesn't generally work that way.

quote:

but back to the point, last battle just fought/played, my shotgun did 10 points of damage to the target, while my 7.62 and 5.56 both did 2 points, which to be honest, none of them made me very happy, but combined they worn the guy out

I finally finished the dictator's palace and had everyone with sniper rifles of one sort or another. Killed off the guards I could see, moved in, scavenged some assault rifles from the fallen and cleared out the interior of the palace. I can't imagine using a shotgun - ranges were too great and opponents far too heavily armoured.

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Post #: 24

RE: Weapon Damage - 1/19/2009 12:50:00 AM

LimeyBugger

Posts: 31
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With reference to your training not being in "running away", I thought I'd shed some light on the subject.

Hannibal used it quite effectively in the Battle of Cannae, where his center feigned a retreat, drawing the Romans in and allowing his wings to flank and ultimately envelop them. As a military man, you really should see the connection between his tactics against Varro and using the same method in HG to pull the AI soldiers into a nice little kill zone.

Probably not as well planned, but nonetheless well executed - or some historians would have us believe, William used it against Harold (twice, some say) in the Battle of Hastings. The initial retreat was caused by rumours of his death - which sparked the retreat - and he stopped it by removing his helm. Given the battle discipline of troops at the time, I rather doubt it was something he had planned, even in his wildest dreams. But he saw the idea of it, and used it in a more planned and organized manner.

The Mongols were quite famous for their use of feigned retreat to sucker armies into tactically disadvantageous positions. I think they used it against the Malmuks in Egypt, but I can't be sure. It was a pretty common tactic for them - probably something others weren't used to, since it requires a level of discipline and planning unknown to most of their opponents.

More recently, Rommel used feigned retreat quite effectively in North Africa - his "88 Ambush". He dug his 88s into a U-shaped formation and sent out his light tanks to feign an attack on the Brits. When his tanks retreated, the Brits followed - and as you might guess - into the barrels of his 88mm guns. Boom. Lots of dead Brits. I think it happened about the time he was attacking Tobruk, if you want to check it out.

More of a real retreat this time - but another example of using a retreat offensively - Rommel again - used retreating at Kasserine Pass to inflict a nasty defeat on the American and British forces chasing him.

OK, these are battles and not squad-sized engagements. Those are rather hard to find, because small engagements tend to be quick and bloody. Still, the concept is the same.

There are loads of examples in history - as a military man, you should be able to rattle off a dozen examples. But you weren't trained to retreat... well, what can I say? Highly trained infantry-man that doesn't know small unit tactics? Well - like I said - men are men, women are men, children are FBI agents. If you insist you're an ex-marine - well, if saying that makes you feel good, go right ahead and keep saying it.

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Post #: 25

RE: Weapon Damage - 1/19/2009 1:19:02 PM

Hard Sarge

Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
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overall, I would say you don't know much about the Military, for the most part, any body in the Army is a Doggy, in the Navy a Squid, in the Airforce a Zoomie, and they have there own names for Marines

besides running guys around with Green hats, they also have a group that likes to wear blue Cowboy hats and Yellow scarfs, really helped them out when in the swamps

I could walk into the Rangers, because I already had the training they needed to go though

but, you seem to be reading what you want into what I am saying, so no reason to keep saying things

but again, that is not the point, if you don't like shotguns, don't carry them, you want to carry nothing but Sniper Rifles, more power to you, as I tried to say, it all comes down to play style

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Post #: 26

RE: Weapon Damage - 1/19/2009 4:43:34 PM

Edgewise

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Joined: 1/18/2009
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Uh you guys takin this a little personal? :P Sarge, as everyone knows, Marine tactics are unique in alot of ways. They see a machine gun bunker and they charge it, take casualties, and go on. The army stops, calls for an artillery strike, then moves ahead. :) I took a leak once on an airbase in Saudi then started to walk out when I was stopped short by an airman who said "In the air force, we're tought how to wash our hands after we use the bathroom." I was covered with sand and hadn't had a shower in about a month. I replied "In the Army, we're tought how to not pee on our hands." then left. I also got called out by an Air Force captain on the same air base for not saluting him. I shot him a snappy salute and said "sniper check sir" then continued on. All branches do things differently and think they're right, just how it is.

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Post #: 27

RE: Weapon Damage - 1/19/2009 5:10:55 PM

SlickWilhelm

Posts: 1854
Joined: 7/22/2007
From: Rochester, MN
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Are you guys done with the pissing contest now?

Anyway, to get back on the topic...in my experience playing HG(I'm on my second game, having completed it once), I've found the shotgun to be useful in the early game. They are good at one shot kills at close range if aimed at the head, or sometime at the torso. Remember, though, that the ammo for shotguns in HG is reversed. If it says Buckshot, it's really bullet, and vise-versa.

In my second game, I'm going to keep one merc per squad on shotgun throughout and see how it goes.

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Post #: 28

RE: Weapon Damage - 1/19/2009 5:13:46 PM

Hard Sarge

Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
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true, and I agree and that is what I was trying to say, he the one throwing insults around, that I don't know anything about small unit tactics or other basic combat skills, I said if he wanted to toss a granade into a room, to take out the enemy while he is standing in the room, then he is a fool (in real life, in the game it doesn't matter as he can always reload)

and for our tactics vs others, most times, we are in the postion of having no choice in the matter, like in the old days, on Tawara, they had no place to go but to keep charging into the guns, they couldn't drop back and call in arty or run away and have the enemy chase them

but as I was trying to say, if you are in a kill zone, you only got two choices, fight or die (most people who drop to the ground or turn to run away, die, it is those who fight back and attack/charge who got a chance to live, but, if it is a good kill zone, don't matter either way)

(by the way, I like that story, had a buddy of mine at work pull it on me)

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Post #: 29

RE: Weapon Damage - 1/19/2009 5:18:05 PM

Hard Sarge

Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
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In my second game, I'm going to keep one merc per squad on shotgun throughout and see how it goes.

once the AI goes to the better weapons, I would say it is better to keep one as a backup/close up weapon, then to keep it as a Primary

I am up against the Guardsmen now, and still carry one, but only pull it out for attacks of choice (will say the same about my blooper man, and the one rocket launcher I carry at times)

(besides, I think those things will come in handy at the Palace)

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Post #: 30