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RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns

 
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RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 1/12/2009 7:22:32 PM   
george1972

 

Posts: 366
Joined: 6/19/2008
From: The Netherlands
Status: offline 		In the South I'm in trouble. Despite getting the bulk of reinforcements, my forces are spread out, without air cover and especially AG South consists mostly of raw recruits. With the Russian offensive starting to roll towards Baku and Rostov, I'm completely out of position for an effective defense.




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RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 1/13/2009 9:36:20 PM   
Grymme

 

Posts: 1821
Joined: 12/16/2007
Status: offline 		Maybe this AAR deserves a sticky...

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RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 1/14/2009 9:27:43 AM   
seille

 

Posts: 2134
Joined: 6/19/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Russian turn 50.

As usual the production overview first:




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RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 1/14/2009 9:30:52 AM   
seille

 

Posts: 2134
Joined: 6/19/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline 		The North.

With some fresh troops in the back i attacked a lot this turn and caused
high losses at the german side. We have to keep the pressure high
to force Germany either to send reenforcements to his northen forces
or take his armies back.




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RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 1/14/2009 9:37:37 AM   
seille

 

Posts: 2134
Joined: 6/19/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline 		The South.

We planned wonderful things this turn.
The commanders of the southern air force had the order to attack the
romanian frontline which was very close the last turn. I wanted to destroy
their attack weapons and their trucks.
BUT: The romanians moved back a lot and in the end out of the range of my planes.

Only one hex with three units inside was still in range. A invitation for my 100+planes......
Did i hit the HQ or artillery i hoped for ?




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RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 1/14/2009 9:49:02 AM   
Joshuatree

 

Posts: 507
Joined: 12/30/2007
From: Netherlands
Status: offline 		100 planes "out of the blue" destroying his HQ... what a disaster.

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Post #: 516
RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 1/14/2009 9:58:30 AM   
seille

 

Posts: 2134
Joined: 6/19/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Yes, a disaster for George. I not only killed some material in this hex, i also killed high end staff support.
They had a experience of about 85. Beside this i liked to see the destroyed trucks since this will
reduce George´s ability for strategic transfer his artillery after firing.

For me this attack was like a jackpot. Had a similar one two years ago in Leningrad area hitting
AG North HQ. And it´s the same fighter unit again here.....

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RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 1/14/2009 10:18:37 AM   
TheArchduke


Posts: 407
Joined: 2/7/2008
Status: offline 		Does the scenario have an end date? I think so, because George´s job should have been to drag out this war by now.

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RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 1/14/2009 10:23:08 AM   
george1972

 

Posts: 366
Joined: 6/19/2008
From: The Netherlands
Status: offline 		This attack was pretty devastating, I hadn't counted on those planes being moved to this front, instead I expected them to be thrown against AG South. A serious miscalculation on my part. The overall effect of this, is that Baku is doomed, and AG Romania with it.

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Post #: 519
RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 1/14/2009 10:23:30 AM   
seille

 

Posts: 2134
Joined: 6/19/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Yes, it has a end date/victory conditions.

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RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 1/14/2009 10:32:11 AM   
seille

 

Posts: 2134
Joined: 6/19/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Nah, even i had a big success in this attack against the HQ defending Baku
George has still a chance.
Why ?

So far i did not engage and defeat his airforce even i tried already a few turns ago near Rostov.
AND: I had no idea about exact numbers and their position while George know pretty exactly where i have
my planes and how many.
Again, until the Luftwaffe isn´t destroyed i won nothing in the south. But George has to combine them to be a match.
His fighters are strong with XP of 50+ and he has enough of them, but too spreaded yet.
He has to react fast and prevent me from attacking his ground forces with good effect.
If i can do this and the air battle starts later he won´t be able to replace ground AND air losses.

Getting Baku back was the whole time my first priority. That´s why i sent so many of my reenforcements to this front.

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RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 1/14/2009 10:39:21 AM   
seille

 

Posts: 2134
Joined: 6/19/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline 		But let me say again, the HQ attack was the only chance for a attack i had.
The only target in range. Based on the last turn i wanted to hit the frontline.
I think i would have crippled at least 3-4 units and that would have allowed following attacks.
That was at least my initial plan. Then George took back his frontline.

But by killing all the staff and trucks i got also a good effect.
Overall this attack destroyed about 40k production points. Not easy to replace since
i attack now everywhere. And the germans will miss these 80 staff during the coming fights.

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Post #: 522
RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 1/17/2009 2:15:34 PM   
george1972

 

Posts: 366
Joined: 6/19/2008
From: The Netherlands
Status: offline 		Another forces overview shows the shifting balance of power on the Eastern Front. After the spectacular battles of the previous Fall, Winter was relatively quiet and this has given the Russians a chance to fully utilize their production surplus.

Although the Wehrmacht managed to grow a little in this period, the Red Army has made a great stride forward, expanding its lead in Infantry, catching up in the armor and artillery departed, but most importantly, established a firm lead in the air war, both in Fighters and in Dive-bombers.

The only peculiar statistic in this overview is the severe drop in Russian engineers...




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RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 1/17/2009 3:23:45 PM   
george1972

 

Posts: 366
Joined: 6/19/2008
From: The Netherlands
Status: offline 		Germany, Turn 51, March 18, 1944

A touch of frost...




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RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 1/17/2009 3:25:11 PM   
george1972

 

Posts: 366
Joined: 6/19/2008
From: The Netherlands
Status: offline 		Some small successes are scored, but their value is of less and less importance in the overall picture of the war.




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RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 1/17/2009 3:28:24 PM   
george1972

 

Posts: 366
Joined: 6/19/2008
From: The Netherlands
Status: offline 		10 turns ago, I could have had a mammoth air group with 100+ Fighters and 30 Bombers which would have been able to utterly destroy any Russian unit in range. Unfortunately, I never completely grasped the fact that concentration of air assets in this game is essential if you want to win the air war.

If there is one thing I would do completely different in a next game, is my handling of air forces.




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RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 1/17/2009 5:59:46 PM   
seille

 

Posts: 2134
Joined: 6/19/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Some words to the strength overview since George looks at it not very neutral

It is true i was able to get a advantage in infantry, BUT

George´s germans have a huge advantage
in mortars (mortar II vs my mortar I)
in artillery
in tanks

The advantage i have in planes is small. I have 30 fighters more, but i have 25 fighters in the north,
so in the south we have about the same number of fighters even George has his own spreaded over
some places while i have my fighters ALL north of Baku.
Now the right use will decide the air war.

Looking at the numbers i don´t see a advantage for my russians !!
I have about 1000 Rifle/SMG more than he has, but alone his 140 mortar advantage are worth
700 infantry in attack power. Plus the fact he has still much more artillery and planes.

That are the facts without any propaganda.

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Post #: 527
RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 1/17/2009 9:32:30 PM   
EDGY


Posts: 5
Joined: 10/2/2007
Status: offline 		The chart is really well done, however I don't think it tells the whole story (the AAR does that!), you are both sure to look at it from different perspectives.  Taken as a snapshot in time, I think  the advantages here can be misleading. Mortars aren't as great an asset on the defensive which George clearly is at this point. Right now machineguns would be big help against Sielle's infantry advantage, however George has only eight  to cover the entire front. I think the columns on the left paint a truer picture and more clearly show the soviets have the initiative. For example - In just the last five turns the Soviets have gained 774 rifle III's (over 50% of Germany's TOTAL of 1497 rifle III's).
Guys -- this really is a fantastic AAR. Thanks for sharing it with us!

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Post #: 528
RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 1/18/2009 11:46:30 AM   
seille

 

Posts: 2134
Joined: 6/19/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Russia turn 51.

The germans still fight back. They still have the assets to do that !!!
Their artillery has to be eliminated.




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RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 1/18/2009 11:48:31 AM   
seille

 

Posts: 2134
Joined: 6/19/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline 		The north:

Less attacks, more a following the germans and preparing future attacks.
We prepared to retake Riga and to cross the Bug.
After that we want to attack Königsberg.




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RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 1/18/2009 11:52:28 AM   
seille

 

Posts: 2134
Joined: 6/19/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Also only small activity in the south.
The germans run away too fast, but sooner or later
they have to fight. My forces are now in exposed positions again,
but they have artillery and air support.
I already crossed the river north of Baku and moved my planes closer to the front.

Near Sevastopol a last attack failed. The city will fall now, but is this really a problem
after the long time it produced for me ?





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RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 1/18/2009 1:36:18 PM   
seille

 

Posts: 2134
Joined: 6/19/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline 		After George talked so much about his production disadvantage (which is realistic modelled
if not too small) i want to talk about a serious problem the russians have in this scenario
I´m more and more pissed by the fact that each time the weather changes the germans get the first shot !

Weather change is always in round xx turn (player) 1. The coming turn is a good example.
George get the first shot in good weather doing signifiant damage and making things MUCH harder for me.
It should be random. Weather change in round XX, but the turn (player) should be random.
No player should be able to calculate with next turn weather. Actually George has never to fear i have the first strike
in good weather.

No player should have such a disadvantage by the weather changes.

(in reply to seille)
Post #: 532
RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 1/18/2009 1:39:05 PM   
george1972

 

Posts: 366
Joined: 6/19/2008
From: The Netherlands
Status: offline 		Well, I never claimed to be an objective reporter in this AAR, so of course all my stories sound like the "little-man-fighting-a-huge-bear-and-still-going-strong" ;-) We each tell our own story and the reader must determine his or her own version of the truth. It's more fun to read that way

To EDGY, in theory switching to machineguns would be a good idea, but my personal experience with AT is that even on the defense, the only way to stay alive is to counter-attack on your turn, so that's why I built more "offensive" weaponry. The combat system allows an attacker to concentrate while offering little for the defender. Hence, no machineguns.

(in reply to seille)
Post #: 533
RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 1/18/2009 1:41:16 PM   
george1972

 

Posts: 366
Joined: 6/19/2008
From: The Netherlands
Status: offline 		Regarding the weather: although I used this fact to my advantage in this match, I must agree with Seille on this one, the weather system as it is implemented now gives the first player an advantage.

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Post #: 534
RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 1/18/2009 1:57:26 PM   
seille

 

Posts: 2134
Joined: 6/19/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline 		@George
The funny thing is that this would be easy to change.
I think only a few minutes for Tom. Maybe he´ll find the time.
The scenario is VERY old. If i remember right the first made by tweber
when the event engine was less powerful and he had not the knowledge he has
definitely today.

Btw, i agree with your opinion of counter attacks.
Without these your tactic your germans would be dead already. Only the hard counterattacks killing
hundreds of my infantry plus other important weapons saved you. Not to forget my units bad shape
and readiness made it much harder for me to attack myself. Active defense
However, a few MG at key places are not bad since the mortars are very helpless when i break your lines.

The flak i see as a mistake at this point especially when they are spreaded.
The only thing they do indeed is forcing me to combine my air units for Schwerpunkt attacks.
So i´ll go with all my planes for the really big targets. This way i can also take out bigger flak concentrations 
when they are in the open.

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RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 1/18/2009 2:04:03 PM   
Widell


Posts: 913
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: Trollhättan, Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seille
@George
The funny thing is that this would be easy to change.
I think only a few minutes for Tom. Maybe he´ll find the time.
The scenario is VERY old. If i remember right the first made by tweber
when the event engine was less powerful and he had not the knowledge he has
definitely today.


Maybe a post in the mods section would get someone knowledgeable to attack and fix this one?

EDIT: Posted a link over there. See if someone responds. Will not go semi-OT in this fantastic, epic AAR. When is the HBO series due?

< Message edited by Widell -- 1/18/2009 2:07:59 PM >

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RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 1/18/2009 3:03:40 PM   
george1972

 

Posts: 366
Joined: 6/19/2008
From: The Netherlands
Status: offline 		Germany, Turn 52, April 7, 1944

As winter subsides, OKW unleashes another series of attacks with far-flung objectives. Only this time, the actual force ratio is much worse than considered in the plans.

Researchers promise the German soldiers new weapons in the future which will turn this war around, they only need to hold out a little longer...





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RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 1/18/2009 3:09:49 PM   
george1972

 

Posts: 366
Joined: 6/19/2008
From: The Netherlands
Status: offline 		On Germany's Eastern frontier, even the most optimistic commander is writing his last will and testament. Despite series of protests, OKW decides to send most reinforcements to the South, telling them the Bug-line "must simply not break".

The citizens of Kursk awaken to find German troops marching through the streets. Again. Hardly complaining, they start the removal of all Soviet symbols from their houses and public buildings, burning some while keeping others in secret storage in case the Red Army makes yet another come-back.

In Sevastopol, the German flag now flies above the harbor. Despite heroic resistance, the city has fallen in the Third Crimean Campaign.




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RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 1/18/2009 3:12:30 PM   
george1972

 

Posts: 366
Joined: 6/19/2008
From: The Netherlands
Status: offline 		Despite all problems, AG South and AG Romania launch a new offensive. Their target? To meet eachother 200 km's East of the Volga, defeating well over 1 million Russian troops. Of course, those Russians might have to something say about that...




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RE: George vs. Seille - A Russia 1941 AAR over 60 turns - 1/18/2009 3:31:16 PM   
rominet


Posts: 523
Joined: 10/23/2007
From: Paris
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: george1972
To EDGY, in theory switching to machineguns would be a good idea, but my personal experience with AT is that even on the defense, the only way to stay alive is to counter-attack on your turn, so that's why I built more "offensive" weaponry. The combat system allows an attacker to concentrate while offering little for the defender. Hence, no machineguns.


Yes, that's one of the biggest trouble of this game, the dissymetry between attacker and defender in term of losses.
I am experimenting that in my own game (GPW) where Russian small brigades are able to destroy completely 2 Pz div in one turn only by concentric attacks.
I don't any good solution but i was thinking to some possible way:
for example, in GPW scenario, if you multiply by 6 the hitpoints of infantery units, the losses are more realistic and it is more difficult to break through the ennemy front; i just have to check that the war doesn't become a WWI. It also solves the trouble coming from the excessive efficiency of fighter against infantery.
Another way could be to use an house rule of the kind: no more than 1 unit par hex ...
and so on.


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