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The Ideal Campaign? - 5/4/2002 11:34:13 PM   
wulfir


Posts: 3091
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		If there is such a thing as the ideal (user) campaign, could someone tell me what that is, especially in terms of length, size and historical accuracy?

Thanx :)

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- 5/5/2002 12:39:17 AM   
Orzel Bialy


Posts: 2664
Joined: 4/4/2002
From: Wisconsin USA
Status: offline 		wulfir,
Boy...that's really something of a gray-area subject that you're bound to get a lot of various opinions....like mine! :)
Personally, I'm a stickler for realism. ( maybe to a fault! :D ) The closer it is in historical aspects the better.
As far as length and depth?...wow, I love the mega campaigns for their detail...but let's face it, those are a true speciality item, not something a single person can pull off on his own. (Read the post by Wild Bill about what it takes to make one of those puppies...those guys should be given medals!!!) :)
Are you thinking of designing a campaign? If so, here's just a bit of advice: (ignore it if you aren't)
In terms of "every day" campaigns I think something that has at least five (small side) to ten or twelve (large) nodes is about right. This would allow a home-made campaign ( one that is covering short campaigns like Poland, France, Norway, Finland or the Balkans) to cover the subject matter fairly well. For fronts like Russia, North Africa and France 44'-45....a home-made campaign should cover certain offensives or portions of the years (that's no small task either) in order to keep the project managable.
As for the size of the battles...that will correspond to the length of the campaign. If you are aiming for a short campaign, then smaller sized formations would help the keep the flow of the battle moving at a quick pace. Either way...I personally think if you go for large...tops would be Brigade or Regimental, other wise you get into the realm of Strategic deployment over tactical.
Well...that's my over-sized opinion on the matter. :D

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Post #: 2
- 5/5/2002 2:56:46 AM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline 		I also am big on historical accuracy,and believe a good campaign would be about 10-12 scenerios..(Enough to vary and short enough to get thru without giving up your job or family)..(Mega-campaigns are a totally altogether different subject).....I believe you might be smart to pick a subject which has not already been "hashed-over" and done to death....Maybe a Japanese or Australian campaign..Both are always over-looked,(so far)..

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Post #: 3
- 5/6/2002 2:38:15 AM   
wulfir


Posts: 3091
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		Thanks for the answers, Kamrater!

I am working on three different campaigns using three different approaches. The problem is that two are German (which doesn’t seem to be all that popular) and one is American (a campaign that might be too similar to Utah to the Rhine). I’ll post an introduction to them and their initial scens. If I can’t generate any enthusiasm for them I’ll scrap them and do something else.

Personally I feel a big part of the fun with designing a campaign is researching the subject, making a hypothetical one demands too much of my imagination. Lack of sources makes Japanese or Australian campaigns troublesome. However, a Norway or Finland campaign would be easier to make, I’m just not sure how appealing they would be. It’s safe to say that both would be “infantry heavy” and pretty much "unbroken ground"...

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Campaign 1 - 5/6/2002 2:42:31 AM   
wulfir


Posts: 3091
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		Set in Normandy. From the German viewpoint. The player will take command of a fictional Kampfgruppe and battle it out with the allies in a series of scenarios based on real or “possible” engagements. This campaign focuses itself on the actual campaign in Normandy. The scale of the battles are medium to big and the core force will be something like reinforced company size.

+ There is a wealth of information, both on units and actual battles but also on maps. The size of the campaign makes for fairly fast play. Because the campaign is limited to Normandy the use of a combined arms core force would not be “un-historical”. While the campaign focuses on actions fought by the 1st SS Panzer Corps drawing some of the heaviest German equipment for the core force would not be all to unbelievable.

- It’s another German campaign and the battles focus on those of the 1 SS Pz Corps (Steel Inferno) = I think in the eyes of many the SS in particular would “leave a bad taste”. After a few battles all those bocage maps might get a bit boring. It takes quite some liberties with history, i.e. the player will dance around the battlefield from hotspot to hotspot and fight or help fight battles that other units in reality fought.

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Campaign 2 - 5/6/2002 2:55:48 AM   
wulfir


Posts: 3091
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		The second one is set in NW Europe. From the American viewpoint. The player will take command of a formation of his own choosing and fight his way through Normandy, France, Aachen, the Bulge and into Germany. The scale of the campaign is medium.

+ This campaign follows one historical unit (743rd Tank Bn) with a pretty interesting history. Different types of battles speaks for variation (slugging it out in Normandy, racing through France, winter battles in the Bulge etc) and it’s not a German campaign.

- Even though the campaign is based on a historical unit, the historical accuracy will suffer because:

A)The main source of info I have on the unit, a book called The View from the Turret, is pretty thin and the maps are anything but detailed, so even if plenty of the needed information on positions, units and maps could be obtained from other sources quality will differ from battle to battle.

B) The actual Tank Battalion itself. An almost all tank core force doesn’t sound either fun or particularly bright and it would be somewhat difficult to make historical battles for a Tank Bn fighting in support of an Infantry Division as companies frequently fought “away” form the battalion.
Also, when conducting a landing the armoured element of your core force will be given LSTs which is very good in this case because that is exactly what was used to land the 743rd on Omaha Beach. Other units, like infantry will be equipped with Alligators, and those were as far as I know only used in the Pacific. Doesn’t bother me too much but if the player has infantry in the core force they will land with much better protection and mobility than was the case in reality. It might spoil some of the fun.

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Campaign 3 - 5/6/2002 2:58:26 AM   
wulfir


Posts: 3091
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		The third is set on the Eastern Front. It’s yet another German one. Here the player will take command of Panzergrenadier Regiment 33 and fight the Red horde with beginning in the ill fated OP Zitadelle (9th Army, south of Orel).

+ It focuses a historical unit of a possibly lesser know Panzer Division (the 4th). It can be made very detailed because the divisional history has an almost day to day account of the fighting. The player will take the roll of regimental commander and his core force will be large even though it will not be as large as a full strength regiment but rather a reinforced battalion (which I don’t feel is un-historical for a late war German unit).

- Again, it’s a German campaign. It might be much to large for the average player (the opening scen is 50 turns long, in order to allow for the player to have a shot at accomplishing the historical objectives set for PzGrenRgt33 but which historically the Regiment failed to achieve). Keeping the scen close to history also does not guarantee that it will be a good scen, though it might provide a good excuse. Designing the campaign from Zitadelle to the end in Danzig could prove to be a “monstrous” undertaking as well.

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Post #: 7
- 5/6/2002 3:03:09 AM   
Orzel Bialy


Posts: 2664
Joined: 4/4/2002
From: Wisconsin USA
Status: offline 		wulfir,
I don't think it would be necessary to scrap projects. It isn't that there isn't interest in certain topics ( I'll play anything new just to say that I did it... :) ) it's more that there are seems to be a new-found interest in the earlier, less well known/covered campaigns and battles.
A Finnish Campaign would be a classic! I would love to see something done on that theatre in depth. But like you said, I think a lot of people ( I have to include myself ) shy away from that front because it wasn't known for it's tank vs tank battles. I gathered a lot of data on that war and toyed with the idea of a short campaign, but shelved it. Who knows...if there is interest I may revive it and/or be willing to assist others in building it. :D
As for me...I plan on finishing the Tarawa SC (short campaign) and then moving on to a few scenarios covering France and the Balkans...while building up more data for a project I have had in mind for some time now: Case White. :)
Anyway, thanks for the new titles. I look forward to playing them out. Keep on creating!

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Post #: 8
- 5/8/2002 11:12:19 AM   
pops

 

Posts: 252
Joined: 5/9/2000
From: Ontario Canada
Status: offline 		...so far the closest to perfect campaign I've played (am playing...) is Wild Bill's Long Road to Victory....

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Post #: 9
- 5/8/2002 11:24:57 AM   
WhiteRook

 

Posts: 276
Joined: 4/9/2002
From: Minneapolis, MN
Status: offline 		Wulfar, Thanks I will try your scenarios soon.
I too love the research part, scouring odd sites for pictures and such.
Personal opinion coming: Don't be afraid of non-historical battles.
Yes it takes some thinking to do the intro, but the possibalities are endless! ;)
There are so many good designers out there for "historical" scenarios that I have mostly given up doing them now days. And insted I am working on "good" I hope, from the hip scenarios! :)

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Post #: 10
- 5/8/2002 7:06:04 PM   
wulfir


Posts: 3091
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by pops
[B]...so far the closest to perfect campaign I've played (am playing...) is Wild Bill's Long Road to Victory.... [/B][/QUOTE]

If you don't mind, I'd be interested in why you think so. Is it because the length of the campaign, the style of the battles, because it's challenging etc..?)

I should add perhaps that I agree with you, because I kind of like long campaigns. It contains one of my favorite battles, the first scen in UTR (St M-Eglise, also found in Long Road). I think it is something of a masterpiece. I feel it has that difficult to achieve mix of history and playability.

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Post #: 11
- 5/8/2002 7:20:47 PM   
wulfir


Posts: 3091
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by WhiteRook
[B]Wulfar, Thanks I will try your scenarios soon.[/B][/QUOTE]

No problem, I hope they will be fun.

However, note that they are the first battles of three campaigns and not proper scenarios. They should go into the camp folder, (not the scen folder) and will take up slots around number 70.
They are still a bit rough around the edges because none of the campaigns have been finished. View them as sort of a teaser or a presentation of what the finished campaign will be like. However, German campaigns seem to have gone out of style and American tankers has been done before, I'm beginning to think that maybe I'm wasting my time.

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Post #: 12
- 5/8/2002 7:44:00 PM   
Orzel Bialy


Posts: 2664
Joined: 4/4/2002
From: Wisconsin USA
Status: offline 		Wulfir,
Don't think that way my friend. :) Style goes in circles they say, so what's "out" now usually gets interest again later. Like I posted earlier...don't give up because interests may seem to lag on a given subject....we all still look forward to something "new" to play.
I do understand your feelings though. My poll showed very little interest in the Pacific theatre...so I admit that I'm taking my time on the Tarawa SC right now while I re-focus and split time on it and on Case White....which I sidelined for Tarawa in first place because I thought nobody would be interested in a Polish SC. :) Go figure!
Anyway, don't give up. Work is never really wasted when it comes to SC's anyway...as there aren't a large number of them around as compared to scenarios.
Remember....just like the movie "field of dreams" had the ghost of Shoeless Joe tell Kevin Costner...." Build it and they will come! " :D

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Post #: 13
- 5/8/2002 9:45:52 PM   
pops

 

Posts: 252
Joined: 5/9/2000
From: Ontario Canada
Status: offline 		.....for Wild Bill's campaign....yes I like a lengthy campaign but not if it's too repetitive or too large.....it's just that Bill is the master and he just balanced everything just right....not too big....not too small.....

btw I dowloaded your American campaign from the link in this thread but I don't find it in the in game campagn list.....any ideas what may be wrong?
thanks

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Post #: 14
- 5/9/2002 12:50:42 AM   
wulfir


Posts: 3091
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by pops
[B]btw I dowloaded your American campaign from the link in this thread but I don't find it in the in game campagn list.....any ideas what may be wrong?
thanks [/B][/QUOTE]

Strange.... The American campaign should occupy slot 69 – that means it will be far below the 40 something slots that are shown initially. Try going down the campaign list (press ‘next’).

If that doesn’t work I must have screwed up.

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Post #: 15
- 5/10/2002 1:51:28 AM   
RUsco

 

Posts: 402
Joined: 8/11/2000
From: Grand Rapids,MI USA
Status: offline 		wulfi,
I downloaded the amcrsdrs campaign you started. You forgot to include the ucamp069.dat files.

These is the main campaign file.

:eek:

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Post #: 16
Oh no.. - 5/10/2002 2:17:02 AM   
wulfir


Posts: 3091
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		CRAP! :mad:
What a mistakea to makea!

Thanks for being alert, RUsco. I'll try to fix it right away..:o

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Post #: 17
If at first you don’t succeed… - 5/10/2002 2:29:23 AM   
wulfir


Posts: 3091
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		Righto, let's see if it works this time...
...all ziped campaigns in this thread has been equipped with their appropriate ucamp.dat file. Apologies everyone...

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Post #: 18
- 5/11/2002 9:28:23 AM   
pops

 

Posts: 252
Joined: 5/9/2000
From: Ontario Canada
Status: offline 		....yup that did the trick....thanks...

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Post #: 19
Campaigns - Some Ideas - 5/11/2002 9:55:42 PM   
Wild Bill

 

Posts: 6821
Joined: 4/7/2000
From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
Status: offline 		Many thanks, Pops. The Long Road to Victory is actually a compilation of a series of campaigns which takes you from North Africa to the heart of Germany.

Alexandra Collins worked with me in putting these into a very large almost mega campaign (but without pics and articles!) and Mosh will soon be revising all the scenarios for the 7.1 version.

But it is quite playable as is.

Now for you aspiring campaign designers, you can do it! I've just looked over Orzel's Tarawa campaign and it looks very good!

As Pops has said, avoid repetitive battles. Use your noggin to think of some unusual situations. For example, in Long Road to Victory, you'll have a lot of different situations, invasions, possible withdrawals from invasions, raids, rescues, chase scenes, making an escape, para drops, and others.

Variety is the spice of life...and gaming too. Simply a series of assault-defend battles with no "unique" situations will leave the player bored after about 3 in a row.

Try to be different. Use the tools provided for you in SPWAW. There are so many!

And find yourselves some good testing colleagues who know the game and are willing to help you fine tune you work to make it winnable but challenging.

If you do these things, Wulfir and all other campaigners, you'll have some great battles.

Wild Bill

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To Wulfir!! - 5/18/2002 11:14:53 AM   
Lars

 

Posts: 205
Joined: 7/19/2000
From: Västerås, Sweden
Status: offline 		Hi there Wulfir

Although we share the same native language I'll stick to English...

I would like to share an idea for a campaign with you, wich I'm too lazy to do. ;) I'm just done reading the book "Slaget om Nordkalotten" by Lars Gyllenhaal and James S Gebhart. (It shouldn't be too hard for you to find it). This book gave some good information to make a campaign from, and since you are from that region, I think it would fit like a glove. :)

It's about the allied (Russian) trust against Narvik through the northern regions of Scandinavia. It includes a lot of interesting information about most of the battles fought, and should be a good source to make a campaign about.
There are a lot of different battles to make which could include even Finnish and Norwegian troops on the allied side. Also some interesting Russian stuff, like beach landings in the arctic, partisan (spetznas) raids behind enemy lines, armor assault on prepared defenses, heroic marches through impassible terrain for flanking maneuvers, and so on.
The only drawback may be that the Germans didn't field any armor in these battles, but some artistic freedom could be used to make some "what ifs". ;)

I really hope you can get your hands on the book and make a campaign from it, I for one would definitely love to play it...

:D :D

Good luck
/Lars

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Post #: 21
- 5/18/2002 10:47:40 PM   
Wild Bill

 

Posts: 6821
Joined: 4/7/2000
From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
Status: offline 		"Plays for fun!"

I can't think of any other reason that has sanity to it. Good thought Lars. Even we designers and testers need to remember that if it aint' fun, building or playing, we probably should not be doing it.

Wild Bill

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Post #: 22
Arctic Warriors.. - 5/19/2002 7:26:39 AM   
wulfir


Posts: 3091
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		Hi Lars,

I have been toying with that idea. I did some research on a possible soviet campaign following the Soviet 99th Rifle Corps beginning with the October 1944 offensive in the Far North (maybe following it all the way to East Prussia) using Gyllenhaals book and an other book by his co author, American James Gebhart (Breakthrough and Pursuit).

In fact I did a scenario on the theme; a Soviet attack on a typical company position of the kind that made up the line held by the German (most of the troops were in fact Austrian) 2. Gebirgsdivision (Strongpoint Zuckerhutl). However I was not satisfied with it. My problem is the very special Arctic terrain – treeless tundra with a very limited number of roads to which basically all vehicles were confined… a campaign would be almost completely infantry.

Btw, I think Redleg did some scenarios on the Spetsnaz operations. You might want to check them out. :)

Mvh
Ulf

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