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RHS EOS (scen 74) question - 1/28/2009 8:56:44 AM   
Sayar

 

Posts: 58
Joined: 10/20/2007
Status: offline 		When opened it i was surprised to see Yamato, armed with 9 310cm guns instead of famous 18"
Is it some kind of mistake or it was a decision made?
Post #: 1
RE: RHS EOS (scen 74) question - 1/28/2009 10:13:39 AM   
Sayar

 

Posts: 58
Joined: 10/20/2007
Status: offline 		Also
Ju 88 is a dive bomber - is that correct? As i remember Ju87 was a dive bomber but Ju88 was madium 2e level bomber

(in reply to Sayar)
Post #: 2
RE: RHS EOS (scen 74) question - 1/28/2009 11:37:57 AM   
ChickenOfTheSea


Posts: 579
Joined: 6/7/2008
From: Virginia
Status: offline 		The EOS, EEO, and EBO scenarios of RHS are "what-if" scenarios based on the Japanese making different choices in their ship-building from the historical. They also differ from each other. EEO, and particularly EBO have many Allied "what-if's" as well. There is an RHS manual on the web site that goes into some of the rationale. El Cid can describe the rationale in more detail.

The Ju88 A series proved very effective as a heavy dive bomber during the western blitzkrieg of 1940, including a naval attack role. It can best be described as a multi-purpose aircraft capable of dive bombing, but in the WITP world only planes designated as dive bombers can dive bomb. This is also obviously a "what-if" that assumes the Japanese chose to build a particular German design to suit their own purposes.

_____________________________

In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice, there is. - Manfred Eigen

(in reply to Sayar)
Post #: 3
RE: RHS EOS (scen 74) question - 1/28/2009 11:52:43 AM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sayar

When opened it i was surprised to see Yamato, armed with 9 310cm guns instead of famous 18"
Is it some kind of mistake or it was a decision made?


The IJN Yamato historically was designed 18 different ways - including several versions with 16 inch guns.
IRL these variants had four triple mountings and the classic ABCD layout. However - in this particular scenario -
we also replaced the 8 older BB and BC with Fujimoto class ships - as planned but not done due to treaty limits.
In these scenarios - sans the treaty - the Fujimoto's were built with quad turrets using the same 16 inch gun as
the Nagato class - two quads and a supermounted twin - like a KGV. Since there was a quad mounting actually
developed in this scenario - it was more logical to mount three quads on Yamato - and that lets us use the same
ship art - so I rationalized it.

There are other interesting ships. EBO and MEBO in particular have Allied battleships you may find surprising.
The RN KGV are built with three triple 15 inch mounts - the same gun as the WWI battleships - a fine gun. This was an option advocated by conservatives. There is also a ship authorized but never built for the USSR: this ship was a modified North Carolina - built in the USA with USN guns but with secondaries and tirtiaries rather than a single DP battery. When Germany invades - the Russians don't want it any more - and the USN takes it over (like the Kidd class destroyers built for Iran in our generation). This ship takes a name from the Montana class - as do two other repeated North Carolinas built because of the naval arms race in the EBO scenarios. In these scenarios Wichitas and Brooklyns keep buiilding too - instead of the period of no construction of cruisers before the Two Ocean Navy Bill cuts in. So you will see three extra BB and about 9 extra cruisers.

In some scenarios there are Lions class BB- and in most you get the Tiger - a very late and finely outfitted CL - all RN.

There are upgrades for ancient BB in some scenarios - USN contemplated rearming Wyoming and Utah - and in BBO and some other scenarios they show up.

In most scenarios you get the wonderful case of a fake KGV - the is HMS Centurion. She later is rearmed as an AA ship and finally expended as a self propelled breakwater at Normandy. She looks like a particular RN Battleship - but she is not armed as one - so it is really a deception ship - she reports to the enemy complete with fake name - a real ship - see Breyer's Schalchtshiffe und Schachtkreutzer.

There are many variations in RHS scenarios - you can have Shinano as a BB or as a CV - and many BB or cruisers will convert to carriers - all historically drafted post Midway. In some scenarios you get half the USN DEs - but they have twice the engine power - extra speed - and 5 inch guns instead of 3 inch guns (that is - the way they were designed). In some you get medium subs sooner - as recommended by Adm King and as planned pre war (Makeral class) - and about half as many fleet boats. Lots of stuff like this - see the RHS Manual.

< Message edited by el cid again -- 1/28/2009 11:56:38 AM >

(in reply to Sayar)
Post #: 4
RE: RHS EOS (scen 74) question - 1/28/2009 12:02:21 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sayar

Also
Ju 88 is a dive bomber - is that correct? As i remember Ju87 was a dive bomber but Ju88 was madium 2e level bomber



EOS is the war as the Allies assumed it was fought. There was a code name for the Ju-88. Also the Me-109. Both are in production in Japan. [Me-109 was really in JAAF service - and sighting of these planes by naval attache personell is why we assigned the code name Mike to them. BUT there were only 3 evaluation machines. There WAS a factory built for the job - a major German engineer to supervise production - and the engine was really built. But Japan elected to wait for the Ki-44 instead of starting production. In RHS - you get both: the Me as an interim fighter - the Ki-44 when it is developed - but only in the alternate history scenarios - assuming better planning.]

The Ju-88 is available not only as a dive bomber but - later - as a night fighter. It is a superb aircraft - and it was available for and a contender for JAAF production.

If we had more slots - there would be more of this. At one time we gave you the Me-264 - but it survives only in Nemo's Empires Ablaze mod. Instead we moved on to up engined versions of the G4M series - relegating the early planes to transport duty (as IRL).

There is a specific rationale for the alternate history scenarios - and you should read it before you decide if you like one or another of them. See the RHS Manual.

(in reply to Sayar)
Post #: 5
RE: RHS EOS (scen 74) question - 1/28/2009 1:02:41 PM   
Sayar

 

Posts: 58
Joined: 10/20/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again
The IJN Yamato historically was designed 18 different ways - including several versions with 16 inch guns.
IRL these variants had four triple mountings and the classic ABCD layout. However - in this particular scenario -
we also replaced the 8 older BB and BC with Fujimoto class ships - as planned but not done due to treaty limits.
In these scenarios - sans the treaty - the Fujimoto's were built with quad turrets using the same 16 inch gun as
the Nagato class - two quads and a supermounted twin - like a KGV.


i'm talking about scenario 75, RHSEOS built 7.954
Perhaps it is ok to have 16in instead 18in - but here Yamato has 31cm guns = 12in.
This device (#001) is also used by Amagi [B64 Desigh] battlecruiser (#840) - they are not active in scenario.

Also - in this particular scenario Fujimoto class is not active. Still old Kongo and Fuso class active.
Perhaps downloaded old version? I downloaded it 3 days ago from RHS homepage (with RHS Level7 Installer 1.6).
Could you check, please?

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 6
RE: RHS EOS (scen 74) question - 1/28/2009 4:36:17 PM   
dwbradley

 

Posts: 197
Joined: 3/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sayar

quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again
The IJN Yamato historically was designed 18 different ways - including several versions with 16 inch guns.
IRL these variants had four triple mountings and the classic ABCD layout. However - in this particular scenario -
we also replaced the 8 older BB and BC with Fujimoto class ships - as planned but not done due to treaty limits.
In these scenarios - sans the treaty - the Fujimoto's were built with quad turrets using the same 16 inch gun as
the Nagato class - two quads and a supermounted twin - like a KGV.


i'm talking about scenario 75, RHSEOS built 7.954
Perhaps it is ok to have 16in instead 18in - but here Yamato has 31cm guns = 12in.
This device (#001) is also used by Amagi [B64 Desigh] battlecruiser (#840) - they are not active in scenario.

Also - in this particular scenario Fujimoto class is not active. Still old Kongo and Fuso class active.
Perhaps downloaded old version? I downloaded it 3 days ago from RHS homepage (with RHS Level7 Installer 1.6).
Could you check, please?


Sayer,
The installer is at this time one release behind the latest scenario releases. The newer scenarios can be downloaded individually and placed in the Scenarios folder (ok to overwrite). I don't know if the guns on the Yamato are different in the later scenario but you would probably want the latest.

It seems that a sure way to cause El Cid to release new scenario files is for me to update the installer. :)

An update for the installer will be generated when I can get to it but certainly not before next week. Once the installer has been run once you can keep yourself updated if you are comfortable with downloading and placing files in the proper folders. Deciphering the install instructions for the RHS mod can be a little intimidating so the main purpose of the installer is to get folks over that hump.

Dave Bradley

(in reply to Sayar)
Post #: 7
RE: RHS EOS (scen 74) question - 1/28/2009 4:37:13 PM   
ChickenOfTheSea


Posts: 579
Joined: 6/7/2008
From: Virginia
Status: offline 		It does sound likely there is a defective file in the installer. You might try downloading EOS 7.957 directly from the web site. I'm willing to bet that fixes your problem.

edit: Dave got in just ahead of me. His advice is sound. The installer gets things like art in the right place, but the lastest scenario files are what you want.

< Message edited by ChickenOfTheSea -- 1/28/2009 4:38:54 PM >

_____________________________

In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice, there is. - Manfred Eigen

(in reply to Sayar)
Post #: 8
RE: RHS EOS (scen 74) question - 1/29/2009 5:30:59 AM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sayar

quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again
The IJN Yamato historically was designed 18 different ways - including several versions with 16 inch guns.
IRL these variants had four triple mountings and the classic ABCD layout. However - in this particular scenario -
we also replaced the 8 older BB and BC with Fujimoto class ships - as planned but not done due to treaty limits.
In these scenarios - sans the treaty - the Fujimoto's were built with quad turrets using the same 16 inch gun as
the Nagato class - two quads and a supermounted twin - like a KGV.


i'm talking about scenario 75, RHSEOS built 7.954
Perhaps it is ok to have 16in instead 18in - but here Yamato has 31cm guns = 12in.
This device (#001) is also used by Amagi [B64 Desigh] battlecruiser (#840) - they are not active in scenario.

Also - in this particular scenario Fujimoto class is not active. Still old Kongo and Fuso class active.
Perhaps downloaded old version? I downloaded it 3 days ago from RHS homepage (with RHS Level7 Installer 1.6).
Could you check, please?


It does sound like an Amagi of B-64 configureation. In EOS you get the B-65 design - with 14 inch twins instead of 12 inch triples.

I cannot explain what you are seeing: I checked old, medium old and current files - and all have Yamato with 18.1 inch or 16 inch guns in all scenarios. In EOS it is 18.1 inch in fact - only in EBO and MEBO is it 16 inch. Sometimes there is a problem with the editor and sometimes there is a problem with MS Excel and sometimes with communcations: a very common symtom is device changes - the classic case being simply to incriment the device by one. If you redownload from source you should see 18 inch guns on Yamato and her sister in EOS. The 16 inch guns are only used in EBO and derivitive MEBO. The B-64 12 inch guns survive because there was a turret built - and in RHS you get to mount it wherever you like - as a CD weapon. B-64 itself only exists in BBO, RPO, EBO and MEBO scenarios. In EOS, AIO, MAIO, and EEO you get the B-65 with 14 inch guns. CVO family scenarios including RAO and CAIO you don't get any version of the battlecruiser - since none was completed.


< Message edited by el cid again -- 1/29/2009 5:32:46 AM >

(in reply to Sayar)
Post #: 9
RE: RHS EOS (scen 74) question - 1/29/2009 5:35:23 AM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dwbradley


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sayar

quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again
The IJN Yamato historically was designed 18 different ways - including several versions with 16 inch guns.
IRL these variants had four triple mountings and the classic ABCD layout. However - in this particular scenario -
we also replaced the 8 older BB and BC with Fujimoto class ships - as planned but not done due to treaty limits.
In these scenarios - sans the treaty - the Fujimoto's were built with quad turrets using the same 16 inch gun as
the Nagato class - two quads and a supermounted twin - like a KGV.


i'm talking about scenario 75, RHSEOS built 7.954
Perhaps it is ok to have 16in instead 18in - but here Yamato has 31cm guns = 12in.
This device (#001) is also used by Amagi [B64 Desigh] battlecruiser (#840) - they are not active in scenario.

Also - in this particular scenario Fujimoto class is not active. Still old Kongo and Fuso class active.
Perhaps downloaded old version? I downloaded it 3 days ago from RHS homepage (with RHS Level7 Installer 1.6).
Could you check, please?


Sayer,
The installer is at this time one release behind the latest scenario releases. The newer scenarios can be downloaded individually and placed in the Scenarios folder (ok to overwrite). I don't know if the guns on the Yamato are different in the later scenario but you would probably want the latest.

It seems that a sure way to cause El Cid to release new scenario files is for me to update the installer. :)

An update for the installer will be generated when I can get to it but certainly not before next week. Once the installer has been run once you can keep yourself updated if you are comfortable with downloading and placing files in the proper folders. Deciphering the install instructions for the RHS mod can be a little intimidating so the main purpose of the installer is to get folks over that hump.

Dave Bradley



Once you run the installer

just dump updated files into the SCEN folder - and everything will work - and be current.

(in reply to dwbradley)
Post #: 10
RE: RHS EOS (scen 74) question - 1/29/2009 5:42:15 AM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ChickenOfTheSea

It does sound likely there is a defective file in the installer. You might try downloading EOS 7.957 directly from the web site. I'm willing to bet that fixes your problem.

edit: Dave got in just ahead of me. His advice is sound. The installer gets things like art in the right place, but the lastest scenario files are what you want.


All reasonable - except there never was a version (so far as I am aware) with 12 inch guns on Yamato. That is a file with incorrect devices = a corrupted file. I have a number of tests running from different versions - and in all of them Yamato has 18 inch guns.

I do run into this sort of thing moderately often: it means there is a corrutpted file - and the advice - get the latest files and it will go away - and various eratta and enhancements will also be incorporated. But this problem isn't due to an out of date file: all Yamato class BB always had 18 inch in Scenarios 55, 65 and 75 - and 16 inch only in Level 7 EBO (74) and 68 (MEBO). FYI Scenarios 67, 68 and 69 are Level 7 scenarios - Levels 5 and 6 only use 0 to 6 - but Level 7 uses every scenario starting with a 7 and we added these three additional ones. Used to be the first digit told you the Level - but in these three cases it does not.

< Message edited by el cid again -- 1/29/2009 5:47:22 AM >

(in reply to ChickenOfTheSea)
Post #: 11
RE: RHS EOS (scen 74) question - 2/2/2009 6:45:46 PM   
Sayar

 

Posts: 58
Joined: 10/20/2007
Status: offline 		Seems it was old file in installer - i downloaded last 7.957 version

Now i see, that japanese CA have tower armor of only 16, with 8inch gun armor set to 25. Shouldn't it be 160 instead?

< Message edited by Sayar -- 2/2/2009 6:47:16 PM >

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 12
RE: RHS EOS (scen 74) question - 2/3/2009 1:05:41 AM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		Absolutely not.

Japanese cruisers didn't have significant face armor. They were tinclads.

The thickest face armor on a Japanese cruiser - curiously - was on the Katori training ships - which otherwise were almost unarmored - and not intended to stand in the line: they had 50 mm. EVERY other case had 25 mm. See the exhaustive Japanese Cruisers of the Pacific War, USNI - derived from Japanese language materials.

Your thinking is based on US practice - and in that case - yes - 4 inch and higher was pretty much the rule.

Tower armor is meaningless in WITP - but it might be meaningful someday - so we used actual values.

< Message edited by el cid again -- 2/3/2009 1:06:27 AM >

(in reply to Sayar)
Post #: 13
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