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RE: playable yet? Part II

 
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RE: playable yet? Part II - 1/28/2009 9:48:25 AM   
iamspamus

 

Posts: 433
Joined: 11/16/2006
From: Cambridge, UK
Status: offline


quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

It's unfortunate that this thread has derailed from it's original intention and a lot of the VERY GOOD content of this thread has been lost between the bad posts. This thread could have served as a place for newcomers to read about the game and see what people think.

I think that Thresh and Pzngdr and the others have accomplished their goal... .the hijacking and derailing of this thread. Well done you guys!


I must cry BS here. It was hijacked by Thresh and Pzngdr and by you and borner. (Probably me too.) Both sides have continued to vent, rather than following offer constructive criticism. Can you not stop the attacks at all?


quote:

I guess there will have to be a "Is this game playable III"!?


Why the unhappy face. You already said that you are going to voice your opinion that the game doesn't work, every time a patch comes out...

Jason



< Message edited by iamspamus -- 1/28/2009 9:49:07 AM >

(in reply to NeverMan)
Post #: 181
RE: playable yet? Part II - 1/28/2009 9:51:23 AM   
iamspamus

 

Posts: 433
Joined: 11/16/2006
From: Cambridge, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Thresh

Playable is subjective.

I think its playable.  I also think it could be better, which is why I am working to help make it better when I can contribute. 

Others don't think its playable, and seem to think that posting about how unplayable the game is consitutes effort in making it better.

I think they are wrong, but then that's a subjective point of view.

Todd



Good post. I concur.
Jason

(in reply to Thresh)
Post #: 182
RE: playable yet? Part II - 1/29/2009 3:43:55 AM   
borner


Posts: 1485
Joined: 3/20/2005
From: Houston TX
Status: offline 		how can I hijack a thread I started???????

(in reply to iamspamus)
Post #: 183
RE: playable yet? Part II - 1/29/2009 3:51:17 AM   
borner


Posts: 1485
Joined: 3/20/2005
From: Houston TX
Status: offline 		for those that say some of us complain about every patch... 1) I do not think I have said anythign either way except pointing out that 2) there is at least one theread out there, and comments in at least one more, warning against the latest one!


I think there are 4 groups of people here.
1) those that think the game is overly bug filled, and not at all playable.
2) those that think the game is marginally playable, but with significant issues
3) those that think the game is pretty good, but still has a few bugs
4) those that think the game is great as is.

Personally, I think I am 2.33 on the 1- scale at this point. However, I am not just crying from the sidelines. I am in 3 games right now, and have high hopes Marshall continues to make progress. I do really enjoy those that say things are great, considering what I still see in my games. As I have admitted many times before though, it has gotten far, far better.


(in reply to borner)
Post #: 184
RE: playable yet? Part II - 1/29/2009 8:48:08 AM   
iamspamus

 

Posts: 433
Joined: 11/16/2006
From: Cambridge, UK
Status: offline 		Because once you put it out there with the title, it is no longer yours....muuuuhuuuuuhhahhahahahhahahhahahahhahahahhhhahahahhahahahhahahahhaahahahhah ... cough ... hack ... hahhhahhahahahhahahhhhahhahhahahaahahhahahhahahahhahahahhahhaha!

quote:

ORIGINAL: borner

how can I hijack a thread I started???????


(in reply to borner)
Post #: 185
RE: playable yet? Part II - 1/29/2009 12:36:53 PM   
pzgndr

 

Posts: 3170
Joined: 3/18/2004
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

I think there are 4 groups of people here.
1) those that think the game is overly bug filled, and not at all playable.
2) those that think the game is marginally playable, but with significant issues
3) those that think the game is pretty good, but still has a few bugs
4) those that think the game is great as is.


There is no group 4. Unless you can name someone?? AFAIK, everyone agrees there are issues to resolve. The game is technically playable as-is; however, it is not a finished product yet and nobody is proposing to stop development at this point. I am also in the 2-3 range.

Group 1 could use clarification. Game-stopping "bugs" are very few now, and bugs in the as-designed game are not critical. What is obvious is a few individuals who fundamentally disagree with the as-designed game and vocally insist it is not playable and may never be playable because their personal itches are not being scratched, despite all evidence to the contrary that the game has been playable since release and Matrix Games is committed to resolving remaining issues to satisfy most everyone. So there is a sub-group here where constructive criticism is not the intention at all and repetitive bashing is considered OK. It is not OK and it is not at all helpful.

(in reply to iamspamus)
Post #: 186
RE: playable yet? Part II - 1/30/2009 2:25:59 AM   
borner


Posts: 1485
Joined: 3/20/2005
From: Houston TX
Status: offline 		someone needs a cough drop!

(in reply to pzgndr)
Post #: 187
RE: playable yet? Part II - 1/30/2009 2:28:24 AM   
borner


Posts: 1485
Joined: 3/20/2005
From: Houston TX
Status: offline 		hmmmmm, so I started it, and hijacked it. I am more talented than I thought!   Yes, I agree bashing for the sake of it is unproductive.

(in reply to borner)
Post #: 188
RE: playable yet? Part II - 1/30/2009 2:55:38 AM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline 		I just can't stand idly by anymore.

Look, folks. When this game was a project, it was going to be a brand-new design. Then, the designers screwed the pooch, and Marshall wound up with it. Next thing you know, it's going to be a "port" of EiA.

Poor Marshall. Since, he has been beaten up for not being faithful enough to the original. He has been roundly criticized for incorporating EiH rules and mechanics. He has taken flak for not being innovative enough and not incorporating new elements not at all present in - or even contemplated by - the original. He has been attacked for creating a less-than-playable game. It doesn't support this. It doesn't support that. The AI is lame. And on and on and on.

Tell you what. How about you all get together and decide what it is you want, and then ask politely and intelligently for it. This is a morass, not a thread.

I bought this game. I tried it. I have shelved it. I have hopes for the future. But it ain't the brave new world you people are pursuing that makes me optimistic.

I support Marshall and his efforts, but what do you want from him? What does a broad consensus want the game to be?

(as a side note, you all should recognize the extreme reluctance Erik has expressed about ever again trying to create a computer game from a paper-and-cardboard original. Who could blame him, after this and other misfires - we all pray to Steve over there with his team laboring away mightily at WiF to save the idea, of course, bless him. There are games I would like to see done as computer versions, but I can certainly see Matrix avoiding the idea like the plague - much to the chagrin of dedicated wargamers like me...)

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to borner)
Post #: 189
RE: playable yet? Part II - 1/30/2009 3:45:24 AM   
borner


Posts: 1485
Joined: 3/20/2005
From: Houston TX
Status: offline 		With respect sir, many people on this thread, either here or in others, have repeatedly supported Marshall, and those that have risen up to throw insults or cut downs have themselves been blasted by most people on this thread. Personally I hope Matrix gave him a  considerble bonus last year for having to try and fix ths project!

It is amazing to me that of all the threads in the EiA forum, that so many come to this one and tell us to stop posting. Yes, this thread is more negative than others. Personally, I get some releif knowing that I am not alone in how I feel. However, I also still play the game, with 3 currently going on, and try to to give input in other thereads. If the game is so great, why sir, did you shelve it? This is part of the point. To get people to talk about what they do not like, and give Matrix the chance to see it. It does have changes from traditional EiA most of us do not like....but those who were vocal in the forum way back when apparently pushed for. The AI is lame, but to have an AI at all in a 7 player game of this type has to be a bear to design. It does have bugs, not as many, but enough to cause huge problems in games. ect, ect. Pzgngr's post also is very good. Is there anyone in this thread that is in "group 4"???? Probably not. I for one hope to be there someday. Until then, please, go off and read your positive forum while staying on the sidelines. Those of us still "playtesting" the game will continue on, and some of us will still post here.

I also salute Matrix for staying out of a thread that has to be uncomfortable for them to read at times, and allow us to express our views.

(in reply to pasternakski)
Post #: 190
RE: playable yet? Part II - 1/30/2009 2:02:05 PM   
NeverMan

 

Posts: 1722
Joined: 2/24/2004
Status: offline 		Pasternaski,

We should all come together and agree on one thing??? When has this happened in history?

Getting a group, any group really, to agree on something that has so many little rules, etc, blablablabla, is difficult. It's not going to happen here. What we can do is let Matrix/Marshall know how we feel and what we think is broken and what we think is wrong. If enough people voice their opinion (without getting insulted by other posters) then Matrix will change things.

One of the problems with the original version of this game was that there weren't enough people who were going to buy and play this game voicing their opinions, so there stood a minority that were shouting "EiH, EiH" and "PBEM, PBEM" that Matrix/Marshall had no choice but to listen. People like pzdndrgr will try to shout over the people attempting to voice their opinions but if you just keep voicing it he will eventually become hoarse and you will be heard.

I understand your position on Marshall, it's unfortunate for him, yes, but it's not volunteer work he is doing.

(in reply to borner)
Post #: 191
RE: playable yet? Part II - 1/30/2009 2:02:15 PM   
mr.godo

 

Posts: 61
Joined: 4/19/2008
Status: offline 		Not a finished product??? What kind of excuse is that? EiA: the latest commercially nonviable, incomplete, never-ending development project! BUY NOW!

I don't think that's the Matrix sales strategy.

This game is technically playable. I can agree to that. Ottawa, Canada once hired a PR guy to come up with a slogan. The politicians loved how it was a play on words to fuse the natural beauty of the city while promoting its successful high-tech community.

Ottawa: technically beautiful.

What's wrong with cutting losses and starting a 2.0? Or is that already being done? If the game is playable as is, I say leave it at 1.05 and move on to the next project. Take what's been learned and come up with something better. Matrix shouldn't give us what we want, though, they should give us what we need. EiA isn't going to port and their attempt at EiH isn't cutting the mustard either. They claim to be gamers. That doesn't always make a good game designer (just look at Wayne Gretzky: he's a great player, is he a great coach?). Maybe they should find some german game designers and help them on the whole gameplay aspect.

(in reply to borner)
Post #: 192
RE: playable yet? Part II - 1/30/2009 2:05:04 PM   
NeverMan

 

Posts: 1722
Joined: 2/24/2004
Status: offline 		Why German designers?

I'm just curious, seemed so arbitrary.

(in reply to mr.godo)
Post #: 193
RE: playable yet? Part II - 1/30/2009 5:38:18 PM   
Thresh

 

Posts: 393
Joined: 12/25/2006
From: KCMO
Status: offline
quote:

What's wrong with cutting losses and starting a 2.0? Or is that already being done? If the game is playable as is, I say leave it at 1.05 and move on to the next project.


Why would there be a 2.0?  Given that it took almost 7 years for 1.0 to come out, and at best EiA is a break even product, whats the motivation for Matrix to drop what it has now and spend more time and energy on a niche game?

The game is getting better, 1.06 has some very good AI improvements.  Yes, it still does some wonky things, but it's light years ahead of 1.0.

Matrix has given you what you need to play a game that recatreates the Napoleonic Period, to include diplomacy, battles, and the like.  That part is undeniable.

Is it what you want it to  be?

Thats the great debate.  I think its getting there, but then again at no time did I  expect it to be a perfect recreation of a FtF game...

Todd

(in reply to NeverMan)
Post #: 194
RE: playable yet? Part II - 1/30/2009 7:15:06 PM   
NeverMan

 

Posts: 1722
Joined: 2/24/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Thresh

Matrix has given you what you need to play a game that recatreates the Napoleonic Period, to include diplomacy, battles, and the like.  That part is undeniable.



This is true. Matrix has made a game that runs on a PC and is set during the Napoleonic Period. No one is arguing that.

The name of the game is EMPIRES IN ARMS and it IS the OFFICIAL LICENSED VERSION, so why should it just be some game that is set during the Napoleonic Period.

If that's what it is then Matrix should have marketing it as such and not tried to fool everyone into thinking this was EMPIRES IN ARMS, which it's not!!

(in reply to Thresh)
Post #: 195
RE: playable yet? Part II - 1/30/2009 8:11:20 PM   
eske

 

Posts: 258
Joined: 1/2/2008
Status: offline 		Btw what is Empires in Arms actually ??

Never heard of anybody playing it without adding some special rules...

/eske

_____________________________

Alea iacta est

(in reply to NeverMan)
Post #: 196
RE: playable yet? Part II - 1/30/2009 8:15:25 PM   
Tarleton


Posts: 49
Joined: 12/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan
If that's what it is then Matrix should have marketing it as such and not tried to fool everyone into thinking this was EMPIRES IN ARMS, which it's not!!



NeverMan,

You're getting all worked up again. You may need to go lie down in St. Helena again...

Tarleton

_____________________________

Tarleton
Unofficial and Unlicensed Matrix EiA Forum Consulting Psychotherapist

Haya Safari!

Marching song of the Schutztruppe Ost-Afrika

(in reply to NeverMan)
Post #: 197
RE: playable yet? Part II - 1/30/2009 9:00:31 PM   
Thresh

 

Posts: 393
Joined: 12/25/2006
From: KCMO
Status: offline 		Neverman,

You *really* need to look up what "Official License" means...

Todd

(in reply to NeverMan)
Post #: 198
RE: playable yet? Part II - 1/30/2009 10:13:50 PM   
NeverMan

 

Posts: 1722
Joined: 2/24/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Thresh

Neverman,

You *really* need to look up what "Official License" means...

Todd


As 99% of the people who have this game, I"m not concerned with the lawyer definition of an officially licensed product, but more with the "common" definition and what that means.

AND, if that weren't enough for your holiness, it has the name and was marketed has a EiA port/adaptation. Due to the term "adaptation" there is A LOT of leeway here, but come on, this is little like the original except in name.

(in reply to Thresh)
Post #: 199
RE: playable yet? Part II - 1/30/2009 10:42:38 PM   
pzgndr

 

Posts: 3170
Joined: 3/18/2004
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

What's wrong with cutting losses and starting a 2.0? ...I say leave it at 1.05 and move on to the next project. Take what's been learned and come up with something better. Matrix shouldn't give us what we want, though, they should give us what we need. EiA isn't going to port and their attempt at EiH isn't cutting the mustard either.


quote:

The name of the game is EMPIRES IN ARMS and it IS the OFFICIAL LICENSED VERSION, so why should it just be some game that is set during the Napoleonic Period.
If that's what it is then Matrix should have marketing it as such and not tried to fool everyone into thinking this was EMPIRES IN ARMS, which it's not!!


Oh my. What gives you guys any sense of authority to dictate how Matrix Games should run their business?? The only real right we all have as customers is to buy their product or not buy their product. Caveat emptor.

Since it IS the OFFICIAL LICENSED VERSION, the only person (i.e., THE ONLY PERSON) with any real sense of authority to comment about this official adaptation would be Harry Rowland. And what would he say? Let's go back to what he DID say in the stickie above:

quote:

I'm very impressed with the great job Marshall and his team have done in bringing Napoleonic warfare triumphantly back to life. Its a faithful recreation of the game with some very clever code to keep the e-mail interrupts to a minimum. Possible opposition reaction, although fun in a face to face boardgame, can be time consuming when playing by e-mail and the conquest conditions and naval interception solves this easily.

Overall its a lot of fun and I look forward to hearing your favourite strategies and tactics as you gloriously triumph over your hapless foes to bring forward the EU two hundred years under your stern but benevolent rule.

Good luck and good gaming!


Methinks, if it's all well and good with Harry Rowland then that should be the end of it. Unless and until HE speaks up and begins disagreeing with what Marshall Ellis and Matrix Games are doing, then the rest of us might as well play along to get along. Or perhaps you gents would like to bash Harry Rowland and tell him what he should be doing with his game?

Rather than offer lame suggestions to start over from scratch, game development should proceed as planned. Continue to fix the bugs, add more features and game options, add the other scenarios and classic EiA campaign, add the Editor, improve and enhance the AI, continue to streamline the pbem process, implement tcp/ip network play, etc. etc. etc. Once all that is eventually completed, whenever, most all players should be satisfied. How would a v2.0 be significantly different? It wouldn't, so no need to waste time on that non-starter idea.

quote:

I bought this game. I tried it. I have shelved it. I have hopes for the future.


Pasternakski is being perfectly reasonable here. If the current game is not right for you, take a break and try again later with each new patch. It's getting there. No need to make a fuss, not that it would make a whit of difference anyway except to embarass oneself. It's not like any of us paid into a worthless Maddoff Ponzi scheme with no product and no hope at all for the future. We do have the game in hand, many are playing it and enjoying it, and we all look forward to it getting better and better with each new patch.

(in reply to Thresh)
Post #: 200
RE: playable yet? Part II - 1/30/2009 10:55:58 PM   
Thresh

 

Posts: 393
Joined: 12/25/2006
From: KCMO
Status: offline 		Your definition of "Little like" is pretty restrictive IMO...

Thresh

quote:


AND, if that weren't enough for your holiness, it has the name and was marketed has a EiA port/adaptation. Due to the term "adaptation" there is A LOT of leeway here, but come on, this is little like the original except in name.


(in reply to NeverMan)
Post #: 201
RE: playable yet? Part II - 1/31/2009 1:04:58 AM   
NeverMan

 

Posts: 1722
Joined: 2/24/2004
Status: offline 		What's Harry Rowlands suppose to say?

"Er, no thanks I don't need the money!"

I guess if Harry Rowlands sold out then we should all just accept it!

BAHHHH!!!

(in reply to Thresh)
Post #: 202
RE: playable yet? Part II - 1/31/2009 1:39:07 AM   
Tarleton


Posts: 49
Joined: 12/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

What's Harry Rowlands suppose to say?

"Er, no thanks I don't need the money!"

I guess if Harry Rowlands sold out then we should all just accept it!

BAHHHH!!!


St. Helena calls.....relaxing...blue, happy skies......

_____________________________

Tarleton
Unofficial and Unlicensed Matrix EiA Forum Consulting Psychotherapist

Haya Safari!

Marching song of the Schutztruppe Ost-Afrika

(in reply to NeverMan)
Post #: 203
RE: playable yet? Part II - 1/31/2009 3:15:58 PM   
borner


Posts: 1485
Joined: 3/20/2005
From: Houston TX
Status: offline 		for those of you that say some of us should stop complaining and just be happy, I point you to Marshall's own new thread about 1.05


Yes, there are still serious issues that remain to be fixed in the game.   holding at 2.33


(in reply to Tarleton)
Post #: 204
RE: playable yet? Part II - 1/31/2009 3:32:42 PM   
Tarleton


Posts: 49
Joined: 12/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: borner

for those of you that say some of us should stop complaining and just be happy, I point you to Marshall's own new thread about 1.05

Yes, there are still serious issues that remain to be fixed in the game.   holding at 2.33


Well you are being calm and non-hyberbolic (I am at a solid 2.75 myself).

So you don't need a day in St. Helena.

Just a night at the pub.

_____________________________

Tarleton
Unofficial and Unlicensed Matrix EiA Forum Consulting Psychotherapist

Haya Safari!

Marching song of the Schutztruppe Ost-Afrika

(in reply to borner)
Post #: 205
RE: playable yet? Part II - 1/31/2009 3:52:37 PM   
borner


Posts: 1485
Joined: 3/20/2005
From: Houston TX
Status: offline 		I already made my airline reservations!!!!!! 

(in reply to Tarleton)
Post #: 206
RE: playable yet? Part II - 1/31/2009 4:50:31 PM   
Tarleton


Posts: 49
Joined: 12/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: borner
I already made my airline reservations!!!!!! 


Well, now, it seems, it's good you made them.

I recommend that you listen to two ELO songs while you are there. Then make another appointment with the receptionist.

_____________________________

Tarleton
Unofficial and Unlicensed Matrix EiA Forum Consulting Psychotherapist

Haya Safari!

Marching song of the Schutztruppe Ost-Afrika

(in reply to borner)
Post #: 207
RE: playable yet? Part II - 1/31/2009 5:33:19 PM   
borner


Posts: 1485
Joined: 3/20/2005
From: Houston TX
Status: offline 		ELO? what two goos songs do they have, ELP perhaps, Or something theme related, maybe "learning to fly", Touch and go"........

(in reply to Tarleton)
Post #: 208
RE: playable yet? Part II - 1/31/2009 5:39:33 PM   
Tarleton


Posts: 49
Joined: 12/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: borner
ELO? what two goos songs do they have...


Hmm...Mr. Blue Sky, Don't Bring Me Down, Evil Woman, Telephone Line....take your pick.

In any case, your can listen to BTO or even GNR if it helps you to relax, but get to St. Helena forthwith.

Your seesion is over. Call the receptionist for an appointment when you get back.

< Message edited by Tarleton -- 1/31/2009 5:40:53 PM >

_____________________________

Tarleton
Unofficial and Unlicensed Matrix EiA Forum Consulting Psychotherapist

Haya Safari!

Marching song of the Schutztruppe Ost-Afrika

(in reply to borner)
Post #: 209
RE: playable yet? Part II - 1/31/2009 8:10:09 PM   
Thresh

 

Posts: 393
Joined: 12/25/2006
From: KCMO
Status: offline 		And I don't disagree with you there Borner.

What I do disagree with is the notion that complaining is the first, last and only option as "help" is wrong.

Todd


quote:

ORIGINAL: borner

for those of you that say some of us should stop complaining and just be happy, I point you to Marshall's own new thread about 1.05


Yes, there are still serious issues that remain to be fixed in the game.   holding at 2.33





< Message edited by Thresh -- 1/31/2009 8:14:31 PM >

(in reply to borner)
Post #: 210
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