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Replacing UNDO-button with something more useful?

 
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Replacing UNDO-button with something more useful? - 10/16/2000 11:11:00 AM   
Miku

 

Posts: 10
Joined: 7/31/2000
Status: offline 		In other thread I came up with idea of replacing UNDO-button. As now it is usable only in solitaire, and is mostly there to allow taking back "stupid moves", and I guess to help newbies. My suggestion would be to replace the UNDO-button with "REPAIR"-button. Now it takes IMHO unreasonable time for units to fix their jammed weapons and immobized vehicles. The idea of this button is to order your unit to drop everything else and concentrate on repair. So it could be used only if your unit has not moved or fired, and using it would zero unit's shots and movement points (And probably should stop making it oppoturnity fire, but this may be difficult to code!?). Using the button would significantly improve repair time. Any comments? Mika

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Post #: 1
- 10/16/2000 12:10:00 PM   
Fredde

 

Posts: 498
Joined: 6/7/2000
From: Goteborg, Sweden
Status: offline 		I like the undo button. I'm not a newbie in SP, but still i do mistakes. I misplace the arrow, click next to a unit instead of on it, which makes the currently active unit go charging against it. It would be a pain without it

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"If infantry is the Queen of the battlefield, artillery is her backbone", Jukka L. Mäkelä about the Finnish victory at Ihantala.

(in reply to Miku)
Post #: 2
- 10/16/2000 2:47:00 PM   
Latka

 

Posts: 157
Joined: 9/29/2000
From: Honolulu, HI, USA
Status: offline 		NoooOOOOOOOoo...don't take my undo away "Aww crap." -Andy

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Post #: 3
- 10/16/2000 3:58:00 PM   
silentsurfer

 

Posts: 39
Joined: 10/2/2000
From: saint john, nb
Status: offline 		No undo button? Whats next...taking all erasers off pencils Surfer

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what the ....

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Post #: 4
- 10/16/2000 6:20:00 PM   
Tommy

 

Posts: 232
Joined: 5/31/2000
From: In that brush, behind you; raising a PIAT to my sh
Status: offline 		I like the "Aww Shi..." oops, I mean "Un-do" button. To many times I've accidently mis-clicked a new unit and the last unit goes on a wild, cross country hay ride. I would really like to see the undo button modified to undo any move; even one that results in a shooting. I'll bet the most common problem is a mistaken move that results in the slaughter of the accidently moved unit. I use the button a lot as a LOS checker. Move the unit to a hex to verify a LOS. If it's no good, I undo and move to another hex. I do this because I just can't read some of the maps well (with all of the visual clutter). How about a LOS check function - something like ALT-right click a hex and the program lights up the LOS hexes that the current unit would have if it was in that hex. Tommy

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Post #: 5
- 10/16/2000 8:58:00 PM   
silentsurfer

 

Posts: 39
Joined: 10/2/2000
From: saint john, nb
Status: offline 		Nice suggestion Tommy but wouldnt that make it a little less realistic? I really like the fog of war thing and almost never use the undo button. I know with me personally, if one of my units took an ass whoopin and I could hit the undo button and make it all better, you bet I'd do it. I think it would just take away from the game, too much temptation. Thats my two cents...but who asked for it, right? Surfer [This message has been edited by silentsurfer (edited October 16, 2000).]

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what the ....

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Post #: 6
- 10/16/2000 9:16:00 PM   
Wild Bill

 

Posts: 6821
Joined: 4/7/2000
From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
Status: offline 		I gotta go with the majority here, Miku. I like the "undo" button. Occasionally I move the wrong unit and having that option has saved me from disaster more than once. Of course, if your unit is fired upon or otherwise engaged, "undo" won't work. It is not very lenient and that is as it should be. Wild Bill ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games

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In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Independent Game Consultant

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Post #: 7
- 10/16/2000 11:06:00 PM   
Leibstandarte

 

Posts: 122
Joined: 6/19/2000
From: Austin, TX USA
Status: offline 		I would have to agree with the group. It's nice to have the undo button when you mis-click on a hex rather than a unit and the last unit goes driving away. Although as noted you can't undo when somebody new sees your unit or fires at you. I vote for keeping the undo button. ------------------ Cavalry Trooper (8th US) and Grandson of a Leibstandarte Tanker.

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Cavalry Trooper (8th US) and Grandson of a Leibstandarte Tanker.

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Post #: 8
- 10/17/2000 12:07:00 AM   
Drake

 

Posts: 178
Joined: 9/4/2000
From: Kingston, Canada
Status: offline 		I got to go with Miku on this on. The problem that I have always found with the undo button its like haveing one big cheat button in the game. In other game I have found people using this button to do recon by moveing a chaep unit up and if it dont found anything, do the undo and move it up to some other location ontill you find the enemy.

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(in reply to Miku)
Post #: 9
- 10/17/2000 4:17:00 AM   
Zarquon

 

Posts: 24
Joined: 10/10/2000
From: Enschede,Netherlands
Status: offline 		I'd like to see it either replaced or redone, ie made less restrictive. If it's only available in solitaire, abusing it would only be cheating yourself. Might as well just edit the endgame files... Being unable to correct honest mistakes that have deadly results is pain though.

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The past is a fiction created to account for the discrepancies between my immeditate physical sensations and my state of mind.

(in reply to Miku)
Post #: 10
- 10/17/2000 11:04:00 AM   
Miku

 

Posts: 10
Joined: 7/31/2000
Status: offline 		Hmmm... OK, judging from replies there is definetive need for some kind UNDO-function. Yes, I also sometimes click map and cause my HQ to run towards enemy lines, and are very happy to click UNDO-then. One of the biggest problems with UNDO (and I guess the reason it is disabled in PBEM/multiplayer) is that it allows you to do infamous "recon by undo" (everybody who has played Panzer General by PBEM knows this). To explain it shortly, you use very low value unit (truck, sniper etc.) to "scout" forward, and if nobody fires it, you press UNDO and try another direction... This more or less made Panzer General unusable as PBEM, as it also allowed you to undo battle results (and so to enable to try until you got result you liked...). I have nothing serious against UNDO in solitaire, but I really would like to have that REPAIR-button as I explained (nobody seems to comment that idea!), and UNDO-button seemed to be most useless one to replace; I guess I was wrong on that :-) Mika PS. The bug I mentioned in previous post is following: If you play with breakdowns on, and your vehicle suffers from one, you can still "undo" the move by pressing UNDO, although your vehicle stays immobilised... good thing to do, if you started your movement in cover or in good vantage point, and got that breakdown in river...

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Post #: 11
- 10/17/2000 8:57:00 PM   
Zarquon

 

Posts: 24
Joined: 10/10/2000
From: Enschede,Netherlands
Status: offline 		How about putting a repair button in the headquarters menu? You could add a few more, like an 'entrench'-button or something. Speaking of repairs, how about adding medics to to the game?

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The past is a fiction created to account for the discrepancies between my immeditate physical sensations and my state of mind.

(in reply to Miku)
Post #: 12
- 10/17/2000 11:52:00 PM   
nikb

 

Posts: 95
Joined: 4/15/2000
Status: offline 		I too am all for retaining the "undo"..."ahhh no"..."hell"...button. The only time I use it is when I make an accidental mistake. Not a mistake in game play (which I do quite a bit!), but an accidental move by mis clicking or what ever. You have to regulate yourself, however, I find it invaluable. I have always wondered if it was possible to make the buttons slightly smaller. A more modest size would allow more buttons to be accommodated. Nik

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Nik

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Post #: 13
- 10/18/2000 12:10:00 AM   
Ismael

 

Posts: 42
Joined: 9/12/2000
From: co
Status: offline 		please do not undo the undo button

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(in reply to Miku)
Post #: 14
- 10/18/2000 12:49:00 AM   
Fabs

 

Posts: 444
Joined: 6/5/2000
From: London, U.K.
Status: offline 		I like the undo button, but I like it as it is. One should not be able to undo if the m,istake has caused your unit to be fired on. I also like the "repair button" idea, but can't suggest the best way to implement it if the "undo" button is to stay put. What about medics? (Zarquon's post). An interesting idea, but realistically what impact would they have at the game's scale? Any lightly wounded man whose morale is strong enough to continue fighting would not show as a casualty, while anyone hurt badly enough to be knocked out of the fight would need a medic to prepare him to be taken out of combat altogether, rather than be patched up to go back to the same fight in which he was wounded. Dead ones are beyond help. In my imagination, i know that while the fewer and fewer men that remain battleworthy are carrying on with the fight, the medics are moving between the wounded administering what care they can. For me to have to take care of that as well as running the fight would be an additional burden the immediate benefits of which are difficult to see. What would be nice would be to have a statistically modelled split of casualties between KIA, wounded and missing at the end of the game. This should not be too hard to do (it's just a simple mathematical calculation, using perhaps ratios that vary at random through a range) and would add a nice touch of extra realism. Perhaps it could be added in a future version if the points raised about the victory levels in another thread are ever taken up. ------------------ Fabs

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Fabs

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Post #: 15
- 10/18/2000 2:38:00 AM   
Wild Bill

 

Posts: 6821
Joined: 4/7/2000
From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
Status: offline 		Just a few things, Fabs. Good points you mentioned here. Medics are intrinsically included. They are part of the removal of suppression, you just don't see them. It would be nice to have a medic which in turn would allow for an even faster recoup from suppression phase. In all Wars, Medics and Radiomen have always been prime targets, right after officers and NCOs. As to objective point values, I've presented a plea to double them to account for larger scenarios and generated battles. It is under consideration. Wild Bill ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games

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In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Independent Game Consultant

(in reply to Miku)
Post #: 16
- 10/18/2000 3:23:00 AM   
Zarquon

 

Posts: 24
Joined: 10/10/2000
From: Enschede,Netherlands
Status: offline 		WB, Yesss. Radiomen sound like a great idea too. I think the biggest problem is modeling such a small unit on the curent game scale. You'd have to add variables for each man in a squad or crew to see whether they're OK, scared, bruised, bleeding, dead or left behind. Fabs suggestion sounds a lot more workable, you could add an extra factor to determine how long a wounded unit is unavailable in a campaign. Then create OB MASH units which will reduce this time. Ambulance platoons to evacuate hurt units and get them there... Yeah, probably somtheing for a future version.

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The past is a fiction created to account for the discrepancies between my immeditate physical sensations and my state of mind.

(in reply to Miku)
Post #: 17
- 10/18/2000 4:25:00 AM   
jsaurman

 

Posts: 129
Joined: 6/28/2000
From: Alexandria, VA
Status: offline 		I like the UNDO button, and we should NOT elimiate it, but I also think adding the REPAIR button has merit. I don't know if anyone has played Panzer General 3D Assault, (but if you haven't, don't waste your money, SPWAW is much better). In that game they do have a repair button, and if you use it, your unit cannot do anything else for that turn. At the beginning of the next turn they are fully repaired. I also think the weapons and equipment breakdown factor needs to be reduced. Soldiers generally take immense amounts of time, cleaning and maintaining their weapons and equipment. The chances of a machine gun being jammed for a minute or two are substancial, but the machine gun being broken for an entire battle? Not likely. Vehicles however, especially tanks, are an entirely different matter. I don't mind that the tanks break down, but i do mind when the 75mm gun on five different tanks quits. Doesn't seem realistic to me. I don't think there should be more than a 1% chance of a weapon breaking down at any time. Vehicles? Maybe 3% chance if treated nicely, and 5% chance if treated harshly. Remember that military equipment is generally much more "heavy duty" than anything in civilian life, and think about how many miles you drive in ordinary life with your ordinary car between breakdowns. 20000? 30000? 10000? Whatever it is, it is a lot. I just think that we need to re-examine it. JIM

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(in reply to Miku)
Post #: 18
- 10/18/2000 9:33:00 AM   
warhead

 

Posts: 27
Joined: 6/30/2000
From: alabama
Status: offline 		yeah but my car isn't being shot at either

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Backstage at the '76 Mr.Olympia: Serge Nubrut to Arnold "I look like I can take you"...Arnold "keep looking"

(in reply to Miku)
Post #: 19
- 10/18/2000 4:04:00 PM   
B52g

 

Posts: 115
Joined: 6/22/2000
From: Youngstown, Ohio, United States
Status: offline 		Its a game, the computer has enough advantages. If it doesnt, your playing the wrong scenerios. I am not a "newbee". Keep the button!

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John

(in reply to Miku)
Post #: 20
- 10/19/2000 9:40:00 AM   
degen


Posts: 166
Joined: 9/8/2000
From: California
Status: offline 		I concur with keeping the undo button. I also have made the accidental click on an empty hex instead of a unit. Besides, it is still unforgiving in that you cannot take back a move that effects the enemy and you can only take back one move, not multiple moves (eg. like in MS word or excel). Let's quit tinkering with the game mechanics; instead focus on having fun with it and the great new scenarios that are being designed!

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"I would have much rather that he had given me one more division" - Rommel after receiving his field marshall baton

(in reply to Miku)
Post #: 21
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