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RE: AE Productions? - 2/12/2009 9:19:27 PM   
Dili

 

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quote:

Resource centers create 20 resource points a day.
Oil centers produce 10 oil points per day.


I suppose that varies by resource/oil center size isn't it?

quote:

So assuming no damage to anything, you are shipping out over 9k fuel in addition to 1300 oil per day.


The fuel could be to resupply the Task force.


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Post #: 31
RE: AE Productions? - 2/12/2009 9:20:19 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Caesaren

Hmm,
one answer = many new questions

The name of the upgrade for the A6M2 Zero is white, but of the Nate it is grey.
1. What means this? (I will not hope that the Nate have no upgrade)
2. Is this shown upgrade only an info or is it a menu?



Grey is "end of the line" production. The factory has no upgrade and would need to be manually upgraded if you want it to be changed. The shown upgrade is what it upgrades to. After it has upgraded, the next upgrade will be shown. No factories can upgrade prior to Jan 42.

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Post #: 32
RE: AE Productions? - 2/12/2009 9:22:15 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

quote:

Resource centers create 20 resource points a day.
Oil centers produce 10 oil points per day.


I suppose that varies by resource/oil center size isn't it?

quote:

So assuming no damage to anything, you are shipping out over 9k fuel in addition to 1300 oil per day.


The fuel could be to resupply the Task force.




A size 20 resource center produces 400 resource points per day. A size 40 will produce 800 a day, ect.

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Post #: 33
RE: AE Productions? - 2/12/2009 9:24:15 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chad Harrison

By that point though, Im sure the Japanease will have a much, much higher production - as they did historically.

Speaking of which, we have yet to see any Allied production numbers.

Yammy, any Allied F/FB production number for the AFB's?



Dont need no stinkin AFBs

This is just the tip of the iceberg, but I will say the "rate" of the F4U is 40 a month replacement rate that is. Maybe a factory that upgrades to it, I didnt research that part yet. I'd like to get out of 1941 first




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Post #: 34
RE: AE Productions? - 2/12/2009 9:56:05 PM   
Chad Harrison


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

Dont need no stinkin AFBs

This is just the tip of the iceberg, but I will say the "rate" of the F4U is 40 a month replacement rate that is. Maybe a factory that upgrades to it, I didnt research that part yet. I'd like to get out of 1941 first



Hey, be nice to us AFB's! We seem to be in the minority here!

Thanks for posting that though, for the two AFB's on this forum

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Post #: 35
RE: AE Productions? - 2/12/2009 9:59:47 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

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Status: offline 		P-40E is on the list 3 times. There are other examples. So this means you have 1 rate for a while, then some more added to it, then later some more, ect.




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Post #: 36
RE: AE Productions? - 2/12/2009 10:04:52 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Thanks YH.  Are there any lt or hvy industry in the SRA?


Theres light industry all over the map. Even on some remote little islands. Heavy industry is kind of scarce. 80 total in Malaya (that will be halved when you capture it) and 60 on Java (again that will be halved).

Edit: Theres more in Hong Kong (160) than the rest of the area the Japanese historically took combined.

< Message edited by Yamato hugger -- 2/12/2009 10:05:45 PM >

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Post #: 37
RE: AE Productions? - 2/12/2009 11:20:21 PM   
Dili

 

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quote:

A size 20 resource center produces 400 resource points per day. A size 40 will produce 800 a day, ect.


Thanks

quote:

P-40E is on the list 3 times. There are other examples. So this means you have 1 rate for a while, then some more added to it, then later some more, ect.


Oh nice. It is one of problems that production goes up from the start so that is fixed. Another is that production is usually shorter and consequently at faster rate then the factory start changing tooling etc for new versions or new planes. Btw besides having a start day production it can have a stop day even if that plane doesn't upgrade?

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Post #: 38
RE: AE Productions? - 2/12/2009 11:54:27 PM   
Jim D Burns


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger






I see we still have the same problem as before with replacement levels too low to deal with the games losses mechanics. If I recall, there are something like 70 or so allied squadrons that use or upgrade to the P-40E.

Now assuming they all lose just 1 airframe a month to routine op losses (they usually lose far more than that), you can see we still have far too few airframes to build up a decent pool in time to upgrade all those older obsolete air squadrons along historical timelines. Heck once you get about half upgraded, your pools will shrink from op losses even if there are no combats fought.

I know the goal is to try and keep the number of airframes on the map low, but you need to look at the pure math behind the games mechanics. You have to have higher replacement rates than just 1 or less per the number of squadrons that use a given plane type or things will simply bottleneck and break down.

Air squadrons can’t upgrade if there aren’t enough airframes to go around. And older obsolete airframes disappear quickly, so eventually the allies are stuck with dozens of squadrons sitting around waiting on the airframe pools to build to a level they can’t ever truly reach.

So they’re effectively one shot tools. Once they get used and run low on airframes they’re useless for the next several years while the wait for third and fourth generation airframes to enter the pools and allow some airframes to get dumped back into the pool.

In my last game of CHS, I was still forced to use older obsolete planes well into late 1943 because of the bottleneck issue low replacement numbers force on players. And I never actually finished upgrading all those older obsolete airframes to P-40Es by the time the game ended. I estimated it would be early to mid 1944 before all my squadrons would have finally gotten to upgrade to the P-40E…

Perhaps if squadrons were simply given an historical upgrade date and allowed to upgrade with a free full squadron of planes, then at least you won’t be forced to use 1936 airframes in 1943. But if not, then the rate per turn needs to factor in how many total airframes you need by x date to be able to make historical upgrades to all the different squadrons that use that airframe.

If the player then decides to burn through those numbers in combats, then he’s screwed himself out of having enough airframes. But as things stand, the allies will NEVER be able to make historically timed upgrades with these few numbers.

Another option might be to create one day air squadrons that arrive and then disband on a given date to place enough airframes in the pool for the units that need to upgrade on those dates. Similar to what Andy discussed using for infantry and equipment items.

Jim



< Message edited by Jim D Burns -- 2/12/2009 11:55:48 PM >

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Post #: 39
RE: AE Productions? - 2/13/2009 12:02:33 AM   
2ndACR


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Status: offline 		One way to get around that little problem as the allies is to withdraw the air group...........especially if you get down to 1 P40E in it.......90 days later it returns full strength. I have done it with my B17 groups, B25 groups, P40E and any other air unit that gets shot to pieces.......if it takes too heavy of pilot losses, I will disband it. Either way, they return full strength 90 days later.

That is a trick the allies can use, but not Japan.

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Post #: 40
RE: AE Productions? - 2/13/2009 12:26:33 AM   
Yamato hugger

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

I see we still have the same problem as before with replacement levels too low to deal with the games losses mechanics. If I recall, there are something like 70 or so allied squadrons that use or upgrade to the P-40E.


One problem you have is you are still thinking WitP. In AE you start with 5 PGs that are or can convert to P-40Es (assuming PDUs are on). Thats about 20 squadrons. The rest are in restricted commands and cant move (including the 35th and 24th PGs in the PI). Included in those 20 is the AVG which disbands and comes back as the 23rd FG.

You get the 49th FG about a month into the war and about 4 composite squadrons of ABDA aircraft a little over a month into it. The 23rd appears in May (the AVG goes bye bye in April). In July you get the 329th equipped with P-38s.

Thats pretty much it. There are some Brit/Commonwealth units that have Kittyhawks.


quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

One way to get around that little problem as the allies is to withdraw the air group...........especially if you get down to 1 P40E in it.......90 days later it returns full strength. I have done it with my B17 groups, B25 groups, P40E and any other air unit that gets shot to pieces.......if it takes too heavy of pilot losses, I will disband it. Either way, they return full strength 90 days later.

That is a trick the allies can use, but not Japan.


Also thinking WitP - AE isnt the same.

< Message edited by Yamato hugger -- 2/13/2009 12:29:28 AM >

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Post #: 41
RE: AE Productions? - 2/13/2009 1:07:42 AM   
pad152

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

P-40E is on the list 3 times. There are other examples. So this means you have 1 rate for a while, then some more added to it, then later some more, ect.





The P-39D with a rate of 25 on 41-12, then a rate of 0 on 42-08?


< Message edited by pad152 -- 2/13/2009 1:12:13 AM >

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Post #: 42
RE: AE Productions? - 2/13/2009 1:23:35 AM   
pad152

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

One way to get around that little problem as the allies is to withdraw the air group...........especially if you get down to 1 P40E in it.......90 days later it returns full strength. I have done it with my B17 groups, B25 groups, P40E and any other air unit that gets shot to pieces.......if it takes too heavy of pilot losses, I will disband it. Either way, they return full strength 90 days later.

That is a trick the allies can use, but not Japan.


What's the point of production rates/replacement rates, when all you have to due is disband an air group and 90 days later poof, you got a full strength air group, smells pretty gamey! I hope in AE even disbanded groups when they return use aircraft from the pools and don't pull aircraft out of thin air.


< Message edited by pad152 -- 2/13/2009 1:30:19 AM >

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Post #: 43
RE: AE Productions? - 2/13/2009 2:13:44 AM   
Chad Harrison


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Status: offline 		Thanks for additional screenshots Yammy.

Questions:

1. For the Allies, what are the replacement rates based on? I am assuming actual production numbers.
2. When a new Allied squadron arrvies, do the planes come from the pool or are they 'free'?
3. Will the above mentioned 'trick' work still with withdrawn planes coming back full strength, but not taking planes from the pool?

Thanks in advance!

Chad

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Post #: 44
RE: AE Productions? - 2/13/2009 2:28:26 AM   
Jim D Burns


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger
Thats about 20 squadrons.


So what happened to the other 50 or so squadrons that historically used that airframe that defended areas not necessarily at the tip of the spear? Were they simply removed from the game for some reason?

20 squadrons is only 240-480 airframes at peak strength. Far too few to defend all the stuff that needs to be defended across half the globe.

Jim


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Post #: 45
RE: AE Productions? - 2/13/2009 2:48:19 AM   
Yamato hugger

 

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Status: offline 		Well the "70" squadrons you refer to were either disbanded (AVG, 24th PG, 35th PG as examples) or transferred to Europe (1st PG, 14th PG, 55th PG, ect). WitP didnt remove squadrons from the game. Once they were in, they were in. AE doesnt work that way. If they were in and left then they are in and then they leave.

And these arent the only units in the allies arsenal. There are Navy planes, Marines, UK, Aussies, New Zealanders, ect. I am just pointing out that there were only about 25 squadrons equipped with P-40s. Not the 70 that you claim there arent enough replacements for. Which in that regard, you are correct. There arent enough to equip 70 squadrons.

< Message edited by Yamato hugger -- 2/13/2009 2:51:06 AM >

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Post #: 46
RE: AE Productions? - 2/13/2009 3:15:41 AM   
Mike Solli


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Thanks YH.  Are there any lt or hvy industry in the SRA?


Theres light industry all over the map. Even on some remote little islands. Heavy industry is kind of scarce. 80 total in Malaya (that will be halved when you capture it) and 60 on Java (again that will be halved).

Edit: Theres more in Hong Kong (160) than the rest of the area the Japanese historically took combined.


Thanks a bunch. Now I'll never get a good night's sleep until this game come out.


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Post #: 47
RE: AE Productions? - 2/13/2009 3:17:36 AM   
Mike Solli


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

One way to get around that little problem as the allies is to withdraw the air group...........especially if you get down to 1 P40E in it.......90 days later it returns full strength. I have done it with my B17 groups, B25 groups, P40E and any other air unit that gets shot to pieces.......if it takes too heavy of pilot losses, I will disband it. Either way, they return full strength 90 days later.

That is a trick the allies can use, but not Japan.


I never knew that. Now I'm getting a sick feeling in my stomach.

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Post #: 48
RE: AE Productions? - 2/13/2009 3:18:58 AM   
Mike Solli


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger
quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

One way to get around that little problem as the allies is to withdraw the air group...........especially if you get down to 1 P40E in it.......90 days later it returns full strength. I have done it with my B17 groups, B25 groups, P40E and any other air unit that gets shot to pieces.......if it takes too heavy of pilot losses, I will disband it. Either way, they return full strength 90 days later.

That is a trick the allies can use, but not Japan.


Also thinking WitP - AE isnt the same.


That's a relief, I think.

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Post #: 49
RE: AE Productions? - 2/13/2009 3:24:33 AM   
Top Cat

 

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quote:

Palembang alone has 900 oil and over 1000 refineries


If I've got my math right this means that we get the following out of Palembang :

900 oil --> 9000 oil produced per turn
1,000 refinery (can refine max 10,000 oil, but only 9,000 here) --> 8,100 fuel + 900 supply produced per turn.

So you have the choice of refining all the oil in situ if you wished or shipping the oil to Home Islands (I assume refinery can be switched off).

Real lucrative little port!

Can't wait till AE comes out!

Cheers
Top Cat

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Post #: 50
RE: AE Productions? - 2/13/2009 3:27:40 AM   
Mike Solli


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Top Cat

quote:

Palembang alone has 900 oil and over 1000 refineries


If I've got my math right this means that we get the following out of Palembang :

900 oil --> 9000 oil produced per turn
1,000 refinery (can refine max 10,000 oil, but only 9,000 here) --> 8,100 fuel + 900 supply produced per turn.

So you have the choice of refining all the oil in situ if you wished or shipping the oil to Home Islands (I assume refinery can be switched off).

Real lucrative little port!

Can't wait till AE comes out!

Cheers
Top Cat


Top Cat, keep reading. I asked a couple of questions and got this out of YH:

Well dont load the ships headed to Palembang with oil just yet. There are other inland bases that have oil. The total production for southern Sumatra is 20 resource, 1150 oil, and 1020 refinery. No Heavy or Light industry. So assuming no damage to anything, you are shipping out over 9k fuel in addition to 1300 oil per day.

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RE: AE Productions? - 2/13/2009 3:43:32 AM   
2ndACR


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Status: offline 		I had the same feeling when I found out.......withdraw unit......wait a couple days and they will show that they have a full complement of a/c. Allies have never had any problems IMO with a/c numbers. All they have to do is upgrade, get unit shot up, disband or withdraw and poof, a full strength unit in 90 days.

I was used to Japan and seeing them with 0 until they drew a/c from the pool.

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Post #: 52
RE: AE Productions? - 2/13/2009 3:57:02 AM   
Top Cat

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli


quote:

ORIGINAL: Top Cat

quote:

Palembang alone has 900 oil and over 1000 refineries


If I've got my math right this means that we get the following out of Palembang :

900 oil --> 9000 oil produced per turn
1,000 refinery (can refine max 10,000 oil, but only 9,000 here) --> 8,100 fuel + 900 supply produced per turn.

So you have the choice of refining all the oil in situ if you wished or shipping the oil to Home Islands (I assume refinery can be switched off).

Real lucrative little port!

Can't wait till AE comes out!

Cheers
Top Cat


Top Cat, keep reading. I asked a couple of questions and got this out of YH:

Well dont load the ships headed to Palembang with oil just yet. There are other inland bases that have oil. The total production for southern Sumatra is 20 resource, 1150 oil, and 1020 refinery. No Heavy or Light industry. So assuming no damage to anything, you are shipping out over 9k fuel in addition to 1300 oil per day.


Are we allowed to build a pipeline to Japan.

Cheers
Top Cat

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Post #: 53
RE: AE Productions? - 2/13/2009 7:07:28 AM   
Dili

 

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Status: offline 		Maybe you can build one secretly to Singapure :)

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Post #: 54
RE: AE Productions? - 2/13/2009 11:09:39 AM   
Japan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

The displays and reports are essentially the same as WitP. However, the option to upgrade or not IS in there.







Yamato hugger Thank you very very much.

This is something i have missed as well.

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Post #: 55
RE: AE Productions? - 2/13/2009 12:03:13 PM   
timtom


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Caesaren

quote:


 


The name of the upgrade for the A6M2 Zero is white, but of the Nate it is grey.
1. What means this? (I will not hope that the Nate have no upgrade)



Means that the Ki-27 doesn't auto-upgrade to anything. Unit upgrades are handled on a unit-by-unit basis.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chad Harrison

Questions:

1. For the Allies, what are the replacement rates based on? I am assuming actual production numbers.
2. When a new Allied squadron arrvies, do the planes come from the pool or are they 'free'?
3. Will the above mentioned 'trick' work still with withdrawn planes coming back full strength, but not taking planes from the pool?

Thanks in advance!

Chad


1. Availability numbers (incl. losses), production numbers, qualified guesswork, play balance, in that order.

2. Both, though nothing is "free". Every a/c that arrives with a unit is one less replacement a/c received.

3. Uh, maybe

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Post #: 56
RE: AE Productions? - 2/13/2009 2:10:11 PM   
foliveti


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Status: offline 		I never new this worked this way either. I have been keeping the destroyed squadrons at PH around waiting to refill one day. I also agree it sounds a bit gamey to use this trick to get around the limits in the replacement pool.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli


quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

One way to get around that little problem as the allies is to withdraw the air group...........especially if you get down to 1 P40E in it.......90 days later it returns full strength. I have done it with my B17 groups, B25 groups, P40E and any other air unit that gets shot to pieces.......if it takes too heavy of pilot losses, I will disband it. Either way, they return full strength 90 days later.

That is a trick the allies can use, but not Japan.


I never knew that. Now I'm getting a sick feeling in my stomach.



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Post #: 57
RE: AE Productions? - 2/13/2009 2:15:35 PM   
Mike Solli


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Status: offline 		Foliveti, it sounds like that "feature" is in AE.

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Post #: 58
RE: AE Productions? - 2/13/2009 3:00:52 PM   
Chad Harrison


Posts: 1395
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From: Boise, ID - USA
Status: offline 		Thanks for the reply Tim. Seems like so many aspects of this game have to just be seen as you actually play it for a long time to see how the balancing and new features work out.

Great to see so much time and thought going into every aspect though!

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Post #: 59
RE: AE Productions? - 2/13/2009 7:11:44 PM   
Long Lance


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Status: offline 		So in short:

- US still has no influence on production?
- G3M Fab won't upgrade to G4M, Ki-43 won't upgade to Tony etc. ?
- Will chance to adjust the Jap Aircraft production to my wishes be much more difficult than in WitP?

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Post #: 60
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