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RE: Only tweaking is left - 2/15/2009 2:15:28 AM

RevRick

Posts: 2617
Joined: 9/16/2000
From: Thomasville, GA
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Andy, just because, once in a while, someone forgets Mark Twain's dictum....�It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.� is no reason to shut down communications. Whilst one person may complain giving voice to unreason and folly, and this could, perhaps, incite others to reply (notably in defense of the project), the rest of us will wait, patiently anxious, for y'all to get this one right...

Shalom;
RevRick

Now, get cracking and hurry up!!!

< Message edited by RevRick -- 2/15/2009 2:16:45 AM >

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Post #: 91

RE: Only tweaking is left - 2/15/2009 2:15:46 AM

stuman

Posts: 3907
Joined: 9/14/2008
From: Elvis' Hometown
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Yamato Hugger has a good point. The guys should get am immediate raise! Double your current amount ! And I promise to drink a glass , or 3, in your honor. And if I ever meet any of you in person drinks are on me.

Projects like this take on a life of their own, and I think it's a great idea to let gamers have a hand in improving games like this, it simply takes a huge amount of time.

Also, keep with the AARs if you don't mind, I like the extra learning opportunity it provides.

(in reply to Yamato hugger)

Post #: 92

RE: Only tweaking is left - 2/15/2009 7:38:31 AM

TOMLABEL

Posts: 5116
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: Alabama - ROLL TIDE!!!!!
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

To reiterate everything thats been said above we are working as hard as we can no one wants this out there more than the team.

Specifically re the charge that we are all playing for fun and holding it back well in additon to my day job I am turning in at least 30 - 40 hours per week on the AI and have been for well over 6 months (others have been doing similar hours on other aspects)

In the past I have played more PBEM turns than I care to think about literally thousands of turns and have not played a PBEM turn in 18 months because of this project and that includes AE all I do day in day out is AI and AI tweaking if Joe would let me I would have resigned months ago so believe me we want this out there soon and we are going as fast as we can.

I dont get upset by folks asking why there is a delay or why their are AAR's but if you note the AAR I did a few months back was only Malaya and it was only Land - for a very simple reason the air AI wasnt in then so that was all I could show you.

I wonder now if maybe we are communicating to much perhaps silence would be better and not upset folks.

Andy

I'll agree with Andy whole-heartily mostly because I play primarily against the AI with very limited time for PBEM. Mainly because my real boss likes for me to work 50+ hours a week!

Many of the team members work as much as humanly possible on AE, forgoeing personal responsibilities as much as is allowed, governed by REAL LIFE circumstances and requirements. Why? Not because its 'fun', not because there is monetary reward in all of this, but because of the LOVE of the game.

Anyway, us AI'ers owed a huge debt of gratitude to Andy & AI team for taking the time necessary to basically re-write the AI to give us a more challenging (if not sometimes, a downright sneaky SOB ) AI to play against. Several of us have been surprised with some AI moves during testing to the point we thought it was a bug in the code!!! If it were up to me, I would give Andy ANOTHER year to do his magic with the AI code, but I'm sure he would quit well before then if he hasn't already!

TOMLABEL

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(in reply to Andy Mac)

Post #: 93

RE: Only tweaking is left - 2/15/2009 9:25:43 AM

rockmedic109

Posts: 2390
Joined: 5/17/2005
From: Citrus Heights, CA
Status: offline

To the gallant people working on this project. Keep up the good work and ignore any idiots posting complaints on taking too long. We all would like it now, but we want something that is better than WITP. And all the features and changes that have been released so far make us want it all the more. But we also want to drool over a completed product. I am glad that you chose to tell us you were working on AE and am am gald for the information that you put out on it. I am thankful you've spent the extra time on the AI. I did not realize that this set the project back, but it stands to reason whe you think about it.

I had a strong personal reason for wanting AE released last March. I've been off work since then due to medical reasons {I am hoping to get back to work in a couple weeks}. What I should've done is offered to help in any way {data entry, testing}. I certainly had the time {even if my treatments would've made it a little inconsistant at times}. But having NO experience, I figured asking would've been fallen somewhere between the height of conceit and royally presumptive.

(in reply to TOMLABEL)

Post #: 94

RE: Only tweaking is left - 2/15/2009 9:27:51 AM

Kaletsch2007

Posts: 142
Joined: 4/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: 33Vyper

Well......

What an interesting thread.......

Hmmmm......

What to add........

First.... I am very thankful for all of the hard work and effort that is going in to this project.

Second.... Thank you for sharing, the art...the map...the features etc... your fascinating AARs.... For me this is just building the excitement for what looks like a terrific enhancement to WITP.

Third.... To all the naysayers....come back only once per month. If it is released .... buy it....if not go away :)

Finally.... To all the Matrix Crew, Henderson Designs ppls, and the testing crew....take all the time you need. Your efforts are what will make this a success.

Thank you very much.

John

Sorry John for just quoting you.
But could not agree more, with your permission, if you do not mind !!!

(in reply to 33Vyper)

Post #: 95

RE: Only tweaking is left - 2/15/2009 9:28:01 AM

Tophat1815

Posts: 1824
Joined: 1/16/2006
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Actually if you really think about it we have had very few people getting frustrated,loosing it and putting their frustrations down in print. Compared to other games this is actually a very reasonable and mature crowd. That being said the design team is really working to crank this out for the rest of us to enjoy. After these fellows do all this grunt work for us how long will it take them to get over their burnout and actually be able to enjoy a game of AE? None of the guys involved in this project are going to get rich from it,but they all should have certainly earned our respect for all their efforts.

(in reply to TOMLABEL)

Post #: 96

RE: Only tweaking is left - 2/15/2009 9:58:38 AM

CV Zuikaku

Posts: 442
Joined: 12/18/2008
From: Legrad, Croatia
Status: offline

Well, since I am mostly AI player , the good AI is my priority... and naval intercept... new air battle model, new land battle model, new industry..., new pilot training and replacement, new supply model... hmmm... OK, I'lll stop right here

I have been watching the progress of the AE project since it was started. And I'm well aware that working on AE isn't fun, but hard work with the code, graphics and a shiploads of data... Personally, I have waited for AE for a few years.. and waiting for another one won't kill me. Ofcourse, I want it out badly, but you better do the good job and give us the best naval wargame ever! But I hope you understand that anxiety levels of us mortals not working on AE are rising.... we are getting nervous... and here and then, some of us will occassionally snap whilst reading your amazing AARs. It's the human psychology, and it happens when you can only look at something you can not have

So, if I ever snap, please take my apologies in advance!

(in reply to Tophat1815)

Post #: 97

RE: Only tweaking is left - 2/15/2009 10:37:50 AM

Barb

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From: Bratislava, Slovakia
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AE Devs: I am software tester, so I know what your job is about. We all are looking forward for the AE. Just keep the work you are doing and take as much time as is needed.
Impatients: There are few things you should know about software development.
First of all, there is a request to make it. Done.
Secondly follows analysis of what exactly we want it to do, what will make it in, what will be added in patch and what is off limits. Done.
Thirdly, someone has to code it. Done.
Fourthly, someone has to test it. Here they are just now.
Fifthly, reevaluate if outcome is what we requested exactly. No?
Well the whole round has to be done once again.

If we only take 100 of things that get changed in AE, well you have to run this five elements at least once for each of the things - assuming it was coded perfectly - which is almost never the case. Then you have to make combinations of this things work together. Then you have to teach AI how to use thousands of units correctly.

Even when you have done all this for years, you will never have completely bug-free product. And I prefer a product which will have surely no A severity bugs and as few B severity bugs as possible.

I think that majority of you will preffer to begin PBEM as soon as product is out. Would you like to restart them as soon as some serious patches are released? This could result for hurried AE release.

Be patient!!!

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Post #: 98

RE: Only tweaking is left - 2/15/2009 2:02:10 PM

Ron Saueracker

Posts: 12121
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From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline

Sammy Maudlin and I just want the AE crew to know that "We love you guys!"

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Post #: 99

RE: Only tweaking is left - 2/15/2009 3:49:09 PM

jmscho

Posts: 126
Joined: 9/21/2004
From: York, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Barb

AE Devs: I am software tester, so I know what your job is about. We all are looking forward for the AE. Just keep the work you are doing and take as much time as is needed.
Impatients: There are few things you should know about software development.
First of all, there is a request to make it. Done.
Secondly follows analysis of what exactly we want it to do, what will make it in, what will be added in patch and what is off limits. Done.
Thirdly, someone has to code it. Done.
Fourthly, someone has to test it. Here they are just now.
Fifthly, reevaluate if outcome is what we requested exactly. No?
Well the whole round has to be done once again.

Sorry Barb, I disagree.

I am responsible for a key piece of software handling eye-wateringly large amounts of money (not in the banking sector). Version 1 went live 2 years ago. Versions 6 and 7 are in production now and are still not bug free. If we had waited until they were 100% to spec, the business would have folded. There is a point when management needs to be able to say enough is enough and release it warts and all.

Although I am itching to get my hands on AE I leave that final decision to them But if we all want it bug free it will never materialise.

John

(in reply to Barb)

Post #: 100

RE: Only tweaking is left - 2/15/2009 5:23:34 PM

JWE

Posts: 6580
Joined: 7/19/2005
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All right. Enough.

Henderson Field Designs is comprised of part-time volunteers: that�s all of us, every single one of us. None of us works for Matrix, none of us are paid, and every single one of us has a day job that tends to occupy our time. We do this because we want to and because we can.

We are all professionals in our own fields and fully understand what �statement of work� and �deliverables� means. But because this is not a compensated commercial venture, time to completion is predicated on what can be done, by those persons available.

If you have a serious issue with this, please email me with your compensation plan (please include Dental coverage, I chipped a tooth).

JWE

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Post #: 101

RE: Only tweaking is left - 2/15/2009 6:04:29 PM

Barb

Posts: 2503
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From: Bratislava, Slovakia
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Yup. I am now too on a project that comes through merging 4 applications into 1. If we wanted to have all the functionality in one go - well this could be done in years.
So basically we are merging No.1 with No.2 and when it is done, we will add No.3 apllication. This is how it is done. Just what was I saying. AE devs have to work over A2A combat - then added Naval combat - then added Ground combat (or something similar). And they need to have them working together.

Maybe my english is not good enough to make clear what I mean

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Post #: 102

RE: Only tweaking is left - 2/15/2009 6:15:33 PM

JWE

Posts: 6580
Joined: 7/19/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Barb
Yup. I am now too on a project that comes through merging 4 applications into 1. If we wanted to have all the functionality in one go - well this could be done in years.
So basically we are merging No.1 with No.2 and when it is done, we will add No.3 apllication. This is how it is done. Just what was I saying. AE devs have to work over A2A combat - then added Naval combat - then added Ground combat (or something similar). And they need to have them working together.

Maybe my english is not good enough to make clear what I mean

Your English is just fine, my friend. Thank you for your understanding and your support.

John

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Post #: 103

RE: Only tweaking is left - 2/16/2009 8:27:45 PM

mikemike

Posts: 501
Joined: 6/3/2004
From: a maze of twisty little passages, all different
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jmscho

I am responsible for a key piece of software handling eye-wateringly large amounts of money (not in the banking sector). Version 1 went live 2 years ago. Versions 6 and 7 are in production now and are still not bug free. If we had waited until they were 100% to spec, the business would have folded. There is a point when management needs to be able to say enough is enough and release it warts and all.

I suppose that depends on how big a processing error your organization can tolerate. One application I worked on for a long time was somewhat centrally situated in the banking sector - suffice it to say that the app handled about 1,500,000,000,000 euros during the average working day. This application was tested, tested, and tested again by several independent groups until we were sure we didn't have any major bugs left and the odd million or three hundred wouldn't wander off in unintended directions (there were some minor issues - no serious application is ever completely bug free). It helped, of course, that there was a predecessor application that could handle much of the load while we kept on testing. When the core functionality was in trouble-free production, we started expanding the functionality step by step. If you roll out a core app that is maybe 95% fault-free and patch it afterwards while expanding the functionality you are liable to pile bugs on top of bugs.

quote:

Although I am itching to get my hands on AE I leave that final decision to them But if we all want it bug free it will never materialise.

By and large I agree with you. But if 2by3 had caught the leader and sync bugs before they started selling WitP, subsequent patches would have been a lot easier to do. Don't get me wrong - I'm not criticizing the decision to publish WitP 1.0 in the state it was in - real-time applications (and WitP is essentially one) are the very devil to debug - there are too many variables influencing the flow of the code, and I doubt that any company in the games business could afford the battery of code testers and automated test rigs companies like Microsoft, IBM, or SAP employ to debug their software (there's also the time factor). But if WitP hadn't had those cracks in its foundation I guess there would be a lot fewer desks with tooth marks around in the WitP community.

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Post #: 104

RE: Only tweaking is left - 2/16/2009 8:41:48 PM

Don Bowen

Posts: 8183
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mikemike

quote:

ORIGINAL: jmscho

I am responsible for a key piece of software handling eye-wateringly large amounts of money (not in the banking sector). Version 1 went live 2 years ago. Versions 6 and 7 are in production now and are still not bug free. If we had waited until they were 100% to spec, the business would have folded. There is a point when management needs to be able to say enough is enough and release it warts and all.

I suppose that depends on how big a processing error your organization can tolerate. One application I worked on for a long time was somewhat centrally situated in the banking sector - suffice it to say that the app handled about 1,500,000,000,000 euros during the average working day. This application was tested, tested, and tested again by several independent groups until we were sure we didn't have any major bugs left and the odd million or three hundred wouldn't wander off in unintended directions (there were some minor issues - no serious application is ever completely bug free). It helped, of course, that there was a predecessor application that could handle much of the load while we kept on testing. When the core functionality was in trouble-free production, we started expanding the functionality step by step. If you roll out a core app that is maybe 95% fault-free and patch it afterwards while expanding the functionality you are liable to pile bugs on top of bugs.

quote:

Although I am itching to get my hands on AE I leave that final decision to them But if we all want it bug free it will never materialise.

By and large I agree with you. But if 2by3 had caught the leader and sync bugs before they started selling WitP, subsequent patches would have been a lot easier to do. Don't get me wrong - I'm not criticizing the decision to publish WitP 1.0 in the state it was in - real-time applications (and WitP is essentially one) are the very devil to debug - there are too many variables influencing the flow of the code, and I doubt that any company in the games business could afford the battery of code testers and automated test rigs companies like Microsoft, IBM, or SAP employ to debug their software (there's also the time factor). But if WitP hadn't had those cracks in its foundation I guess there would be a lot fewer desks with tooth marks around in the WitP community.

We are also going to have AE tested by a bunch of independent groups - soon as they buy it.

Just a rambling discussion from someone who wrote his first program 45 years ago...

Programmers forget to test what they forget to code.

Testers get in rhythms - they repeatedly test the same thing and repeatedly don't test some other thing.

Features that work independently and in usual combinations will break in unusual circumstances.

If extensive testing by professionals, a large support staff, and feed back from a large user base could result in bug-free software - my windows start menu would not have the little "update" feature.

Good things are comming. There will be problems. People will love and hate AE. Modders will create new mods that entertain - and that create new circumstances that break things.

A little patience, then politeness please. Enjoy.

(in reply to mikemike)

Post #: 105

RE: Only tweaking is left - 2/16/2009 9:17:40 PM

ny59giants

Posts: 9869
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Instead of starting a whole new thread, are there major changes in any ship class when it comes to endurance??

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Post #: 106

RE: Only tweaking is left - 2/16/2009 9:20:21 PM

Terminus

Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline

What do you mean, exactly?

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Post #: 107

RE: Only tweaking is left - 2/18/2009 3:32:39 AM

mbatch729

Posts: 537
Joined: 5/23/2001
From: North Carolina
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Unfortunately, not everybody is going berserk with a sense of humour. It's almost there, people. REALLY.

Is this the first public admission from T that AE really does exist?!?!?!

Coming from both a former programmer and current technical project manager, give these guys a break. Working on a project this big full time would be hard enough. Trying to fit it around your day job has got to be ... well... I can't use that kind of language. Let's just say hard. Although eager for AE, I say give these guys the benefit of the doubt. I'm sure by this stage they are even more anxious to finish than we are to buy it.

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Post #: 108

RE: Only tweaking is left - 2/18/2009 6:42:16 AM

Yamato hugger

Posts: 5475
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That wasnt Termmy. Someone hacked his account and wrote that.

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Post #: 109

RE: Only tweaking is left - 2/18/2009 6:49:15 AM

jwilkerson

Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Instead of starting a whole new thread, are there major changes in any ship class when it comes to endurance??

Probably. The ships weren't redone. The ships were all done totally from scratch - so we don't have any data about what changed - and don't have time to do comparisions right now. But as I'm the one who did the bulk of the Japanese surface combatants I can say that many of the ranges of the heavy cruisers are rather different. I used the data from Lacroix.

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Post #: 110

RE: Only tweaking is left - 2/18/2009 7:55:40 AM

Yamato hugger

Posts: 5475
Joined: 10/5/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

and don't have time to do comparisions right now.

Who let you out of your cage? Get back in there and CODE!!

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Post #: 111

RE: Only tweaking is left - 2/18/2009 9:43:37 AM

Cmdrcain

Posts: 1161
Joined: 8/21/2000
From: Rebuilding FLA, Busy Repairing!
Status: offline

Ya all know, its been finished but the AE guys simply are too busy playing it as their private play game that they just don't want to
Let it out to us common folk...

Kinda like the Kings of old reserving all the Deer to themselves...

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Post #: 112

RE: Only tweaking is left - 2/18/2009 10:30:09 AM

Durbik

Posts: 276
Joined: 1/20/2008
From: Krakow, Poland
Status: offline

just a little question, don't want to mess the board with another thread:

- after AE is released, how long does it take the product to ship overseas trough "normal" distributors' network? would it be easier (and faster) for buyers in Europe to get it from the US directly, or just wait a few weeks for AE appearance in local game store? I'm considering another CHS play, but with AE I predict my zeal for CHS to fall rapidly :)

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Post #: 113

RE: Only tweaking is left - 2/18/2009 11:09:23 AM

morphin

Posts: 572
Joined: 4/26/2002
From: Switzerland
Status: offline

I would buy it directly from matrixgames. it is at least as fast and often cheaper

Andy

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Post #: 114

RE: Only tweaking is left - 2/18/2009 12:13:13 PM

Mistmatz

Posts: 1399
Joined: 10/16/2005
Status: offline

IMHO download plus a few bucks more for a CD in a nice package ist the way to go.

You'll get it as fast as your internet connection is and will never have any trouble with lost serials and the like.

(in reply to morphin)

Post #: 115

RE: Only tweaking is left - 2/18/2009 12:15:33 PM

Durbik

Posts: 276
Joined: 1/20/2008
From: Krakow, Poland
Status: offline

thanks guys!

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obey the fist!

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Post #: 116

RE: Only tweaking is left - 2/18/2009 12:17:07 PM

Nomad

Posts: 5905
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline

If available Mistmatz has the right choice. Digital download to get the game the first day with a hardcopy and manual in the mail.

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Post #: 117

RE: Only tweaking is left - 2/18/2009 12:49:00 PM

fokkov

Posts: 83
Joined: 4/19/2005
From: Gouda, Holland
Status: offline

quote:

Digital download to get the game the first day

Youre sure you can do that ? , think the servers will go beserk when this crazy bunch are trying to dowload it

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Post #: 118

RE: Only tweaking is left - 2/18/2009 12:53:29 PM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

The absolute best way to get it will be to order the "Digital + Physical" option on the day of release here. You'll be able to download and play immediately and the hard copy will ship out as soon as possible so that you have a permanent physical copy as well. If speed is the primary concern, no one anywhere will have WITP AE faster than we will.

Regards,

- Erik

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For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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Post #: 119

RE: Only tweaking is left - 2/18/2009 1:00:38 PM

Buck Beach

Posts: 1973
Joined: 6/25/2000
From: Upland,CA,USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

The absolute best way to get it will be to order the "Digital + Physical" option on the day of release here. You'll be able to download and play immediately and the hard copy will ship out as soon as possible so that you have a permanent physical copy as well. If speed is the primary concern, no one anywhere will have WITP AE faster than we will.

Regards,

- Erik

Hmmmm!!! Official Matrix staff commenting on AE delivery. We must be getting closer that I thought.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 120

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RE: Only tweaking is left