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trenches - 2/24/2009 3:38:10 AM   
TDeacon

 

Posts: 62
Joined: 12/25/2005
From: NE Illinois
Status: offline 		I just noticed the following post in the main section, and it concerned me. Although I haven't played against a human opponent yet, it seems to me that creating visible trenches under a defender's infantry would appear to be a significant disadvantage for that defending infantry. Note that one of the improvements in CC IV over CC III was that infantry was much harder to see, thus helping it to be more survivable. In CC IV, a careless vehicle could easily move sufficiently close to hidden infantry (open field) to be within range of a panzerfaust. Automatic trenches would preclude this. Comments?

<quote from another post>

Ive got a question on the "digging in" part of this game. Ive got 2 linked computers and I noticed in the first map of the GC any infantry unit's trench (americans)will appear if its within line of site of any enemy unit (germans). Although the unit doesnt appear, it pretty much gives away your setup. These trenches are showing up at a good distance too.

I wondered why first time I played a GC my opponent seemed to know exactly were my american units were hidden on that map(south eifel).

According to manual and I quote "so what may appear to an attacker as an open field on a map could actually be a vast network of enemy trenches (page 54)". So to me this doesnt seem right.

I havnt checked out any of the other maps yet, but I would think these trenches shouldnt appear until a enemy unit gets at least close to it.

<unquote>



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RE: trenches - 2/24/2009 11:44:27 AM   
nietsche

 

Posts: 55
Joined: 11/25/2008
From: Ozzieland
Status: offline 		Agreed!

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RE: trenches - 2/24/2009 6:39:01 PM   
TDeacon

 

Posts: 62
Joined: 12/25/2005
From: NE Illinois
Status: offline 		An even more serious consequence of this behavior would appear to be that hidden anti-tank guns will also be revealed to a human player, under these conditions. Basically, if I understand this mechanism correctly, we are inadvertently reducing an infantry battle group's combat effectiveness, as a result of it's having been "rested".

Hopefully Matrix will patch this? Some alternatives:
1) Preclude placement of these automatic entrenchments, or
2) Allow players to chose whether to preclude placement of these automatic entrenchments.

Whatever solution is used should, at minimum, ensure that a battle group's combat effectiveness is not reduced as a result of being "rested".

< Message edited by TDeacon -- 2/24/2009 8:29:43 PM >

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RE: trenches - 2/25/2009 12:04:16 AM   
Platoon_Michael


Posts: 1119
Joined: 3/9/2003
Status: offline 		This was an issue in the original CCIV as well,it's not new.
Trenchs and ATGun pits do give away your position.
Compound that with stealth like mortors your ATGuns go down quickly.



(in reply to TDeacon)
Post #: 4
RE: trenches - 2/25/2009 1:55:43 AM   
TDeacon

 

Posts: 62
Joined: 12/25/2005
From: NE Illinois
Status: offline 		Platoon_Michael,

The point is not that entrenchments give away your position, in general. Under normal circumstances, one would not place hidden units in obvious places (such as entrenchments), since the typical human attacker will target such obvious places. The point is that you are apparently forced to use entrenchments (automatically placed under your soft units), in the situation described (when deploying with "rested" battle groups).

Similarly, even if this existed in CC IV, that doesn't mean we shouldn't fix it in CC WaR. After all, the WaR strategic game, as described in the manual (remember, I haven't played it yet; just bought it and am trying to convince my gaming partner to do so), sounds extremely interesting, and we should want to keep it that way.

Thus, hopefully, Matrix will consider fixing this, fine upstanding company that they are. :-)

< Message edited by TDeacon -- 2/25/2009 2:04:36 AM >

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Post #: 5
RE: trenches - 2/26/2009 12:46:49 AM   
Platoon_Michael


Posts: 1119
Joined: 3/9/2003
Status: offline 		Sorry bout that.
I have never been able to figure out why some units/teams made a trench and some dont.
When playing H2H as soon as the battle started I would normally sneak my teams away from the trenches,most of the time it did fool my opponent and he would fire at empty trenches.
Particulary good if your weaker tank needed an extra shot on his as he would then have HE rounds loaded.
 
I think what you are suggesting as an alternative would be a huge upgrade and not just a simple fix.
You might be able to come up with a sutable solution by editing the Terrain files.

(in reply to TDeacon)
Post #: 6
RE: trenches - 2/26/2009 1:16:08 AM   
panzerlehr62


Posts: 314
Joined: 2/23/2009
Status: offline 		Hello Mark,

I didnt play enuff of the orginal IV to either notice it or be told of it, I also didnt have a network setup to visually see what the other guy was seeing when the battle started.

Had I not been testing diffrent american deployments I still wouldnt have known about the problem. One thing I will say is this, if you deploy next to a road and then sneak away to a more defensive position "NO" trench will be made. It also means one will have to deploy in such a way that the trenches left behind will not compromise your units.

I just wish if they knew it existed and couldnt fix it, then why not do away with it all together. Do we really need it? If the answer is yes (ive got some swamp land in florida to sell), then why not make a bunch of "fake" trenches built into maps so to at least confuse the attacker, esp. on a map like "cross roads".

If you are looking for a GC oppenent Mark let me know, I am really ready to get some gaming in, getting tired of testing, also I am not sure I want to see what else is wrong with this game, because it looks pretty neat...lol...

Rob...


(in reply to TDeacon)
Post #: 7
RE: trenches - 2/26/2009 1:34:15 AM   
Andrew Williams


Posts: 6116
Joined: 1/8/2001
From: Australia
Status: offline 		I have no idea for the original reason for making the auto load trenches.

but

They will only form if your team is on the correct type of terrain ie no trenches in buildings  or on roads or Rocky ground etc.

Being in a trench does give your team more protection.

The trench can only be seen when your opponent gets LOS to it.

We are looking at putting a range modifier on it so that a team has to be within so many metres and have LOS to the trench to see it.

(in reply to panzerlehr62)
Post #: 8
RE: trenches - 2/26/2009 1:48:41 AM   
panzerlehr62


Posts: 314
Joined: 2/23/2009
Status: offline 		Hello,

That would be great. The purpose is to reward the sitting BG and give them a slight advantage since they had time to prepare a defensive position. I had LOS of over 236M showing a trench on that map, considering them boys were laying on there bellys in ambush mode, thats pretty good eyesite, or another reason to quit smoking (because either them boys dont know how to conceal a foxhole or there is deifinitly to much smoke coming out of that hole).

I can still remember playing Steel Panthers and how valuable a trenched position was.

Keep up the good work,

Rob...


< Message edited by panzerlehr62 -- 2/26/2009 1:53:42 AM >

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Post #: 9
RE: trenches - 2/26/2009 4:00:04 AM   
TDeacon

 

Posts: 62
Joined: 12/25/2005
From: NE Illinois
Status: offline 		I just tested this in my LAN setup, and in fact, trenches have been created for all infantry and heavy weapons teams in suitable terrain, with a "rested" battlegroup.  However, I haven't seen entrenchments for ATGs, in my 2 experiments so far, which is good.  If it's just the infantry, one could position the trenches behind the crest (if there is a crest...), and then have the troops crawl up to the crest to see beyond. 

Still I would like to see a change allowing this "automatic entrenchments" feature to be disabled.  2nd choice would be to limit the detection range, based on the assumption that a "rested" team would have had time to not only dig, but also to camouflage their entrenchments. 

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RE: trenches - 2/26/2009 4:10:09 AM   
TDeacon

 

Posts: 62
Joined: 12/25/2005
From: NE Illinois
Status: offline 		BTW, with respect to the visibility of camouflaged infantry entrenchments, remember that scene in "Band of Brothers" where the guy is strolling through the woods, and accidentally steps into a camouflaged occupied German foxhole...

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RE: trenches - 2/26/2009 4:18:28 AM   
TDeacon

 

Posts: 62
Joined: 12/25/2005
From: NE Illinois
Status: offline 		Panzerlehr62,

A bit off-topic, but thanks for the offer; I may be interested.  At the moment, my friend Larry is supposedly going to buy the game this week, and we were going to start a campaign this Friday.  If he changes his mind, which is not unusual, I'll see if you're still available.  What time zone are you in; I'm CST? 


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RE: trenches - 2/26/2009 11:37:56 PM   
panzerlehr62


Posts: 314
Joined: 2/23/2009
Status: offline 		Hello Mark,

I am central time zone also so that would work out great if he doesnt come thru. I believe "panzerlehr" is my yahoo messenger name and I try to leave it on as much as possible. I see no patch today so I guess it will be next week at this point since I read somewere that no patch is released on Fridays, althou I am not sure I can hold out...lol

Take care,
Rob...


(in reply to TDeacon)
Post #: 13
RE: trenches - 2/27/2009 12:18:52 AM   
Senior Drill


Posts: 199
Joined: 11/21/2007
From: Quantico
Status: offline 		A couple of key points on entrenchments:

The weapons pit for an AT gun or mortar will only be created if EVERY element tile is capable of being entrenched. If just one element tile in the square of the weapon pit's size is not entrenchable, the weapon pit will not be created. One little element bush or rock will negate the creation of a pit, so you have to chose your terrain very carefully.

Even when out in relative open terrain, the unit occupying any entrenchment is not automatically spotted and depending on the type of weapon may never be spotted even after firing. In the original CC4, AT guns in a weapons pit can fire several rounds without being spotted by the AI. Human opponents may not see the gun, but might see the muzzle flash and the entrenchment and be inclined to target that location. In this case, the entrechment gives him a reference point to watch, which may distract him from watching other key areas.

Trenches and weapons pits are persistant over several battles in operations and campaigns. Use "throw away" units and rear guard units to create trenches in front line and fall back positions for the battle being fought, then sneak the units back out under smoke to their actual mission positions. If you are fortunate enough to hold the map until the next morning turn, do the same again in other places. This can create many trenches that a human opponent will see. He will not know which are occupied and which are empty until he gets close to them. The AI gets dazzeled by multiple entrenchments and will only attack them in desperation.

In WaR, trenches that have a camouflaged netting "roof" mask the muzzel flash of firing units occupying it to a degree. Don't rely on those camo net "roof" graphics, but they do make it harder to spot infantry in them.

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RE: trenches - 2/27/2009 12:45:46 AM   
Pzt_Serk


Posts: 92
Joined: 10/30/2008
Status: offline 		Regarding weapon pit and ATG, it does not really matter if the gun is actually spotted by a human opponent. With the current lethality of mortar vs ATGs, the weapon pit causes more problem than anything else.

When playing H2H, I actually try to position my ATGs in positions I'm sure they WON'T dig in because I don't consider using my few ATGs as a «distraction» for my opponent is the most usefull way in using them... I'd rather keep them unspotted in case a worthy target gets in sight...

Cheers,

< Message edited by Pzt_Serk -- 2/27/2009 12:47:09 AM >

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Post #: 15
RE: trenches - 2/27/2009 1:39:53 AM   
Platoon_Michael


Posts: 1119
Joined: 3/9/2003
Status: offline
quote:

With the current lethality of mortar vs ATGs, the weapon pit causes more problem than anything else.


Yea im hoping thats fixed too.
I lost an AT gun last night to the very first mortar fired.

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Post #: 16
RE: trenches - 2/27/2009 2:13:30 AM   
Andrew Williams


Posts: 6116
Joined: 1/8/2001
From: Australia
Status: offline 		I can't hit anything with my mortars


Played a H2H game yesterday and my AT gun survived 15 or so shots by my opponents mortar.

It still didn't get any Tanks as it was over run by infantry.

(in reply to Platoon_Michael)
Post #: 17
RE: trenches - 2/27/2009 6:52:09 PM   
TDeacon

 

Posts: 62
Joined: 12/25/2005
From: NE Illinois
Status: offline 		I think the entrenchments issue should be dealt with independently of mortar issues if any (which I haven't seen yet; see next paragraph).

Mortar accuracy seems to be subject to various modifiers, including but not limited to whether the battery has a direct LOS, range, and (maybe) whether they are being spotted for by a commander with a direct LOS (I'm still experimenting with this last item, but it seems to help so far). BTW, Last night (2/27) I played a practice game in which I used an 81mm mortar against a US 3-inch ATG. Accuracy was good (due to several of the above factors), but neither accuracy nor lethality appeared to be out of line when compared to CCIII (which I have played a lot). In fact, several mortar rounds seemed to land right on top of the ATG, with the only effect being temporary panic of 2 crew members. I eventually had to waste one of my off-board artillery concentrations to get rid of it. The ATG was not entrenched, but instead was hidden in among some trees at the edge of a wood.

< Message edited by TDeacon -- 2/28/2009 1:33:40 PM >

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RE: trenches - 3/27/2009 4:33:13 PM   
thesock

 

Posts: 48
Joined: 3/27/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: panzerlehr62

Hello Mark,

I didnt play enuff of the orginal IV to either notice it or be told of it, I also didnt have a network setup to visually see what the other guy was seeing when the battle started.

Had I not been testing diffrent american deployments I still wouldnt have known about the problem. One thing I will say is this, if you deploy next to a road and then sneak away to a more defensive position "NO" trench will be made. It also means one will have to deploy in such a way that the trenches left behind will not compromise your units.

I just wish if they knew it existed and couldnt fix it, then why not do away with it all together. Do we really need it? If the answer is yes (ive got some swamp land in florida to sell), then why not make a bunch of "fake" trenches built into maps so to at least confuse the attacker, esp. on a map like "cross roads".

If you are looking for a GC oppenent Mark let me know, I am really ready to get some gaming in, getting tired of testing, also I am not sure I want to see what else is wrong with this game, because it looks pretty neat...lol...

Rob...



Perhaps there could be some way of the trench appearing the same as it's surroundings to your opponent, but still like a trench to you.

(in reply to panzerlehr62)
Post #: 19
RE: trenches - 4/21/2009 11:27:17 AM   
mooxe


Posts: 314
Joined: 10/25/2003
Status: offline 		Here are some other solutions...

- Trenches with overhead protection
- Camoflaged Trenched
- Place units on sneak in deployment phase so they dont make a trench

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Post #: 20
RE: trenches - 4/21/2009 11:47:54 AM   
Andrew Williams


Posts: 6116
Joined: 1/8/2001
From: Australia
Status: offline
quote:

- Trenches with overhead protection


We've discussed "camoflaged trench" as a possible new element... it would be the default trench given the above scenario.... nearly everyone sees the current Trench as more of a hindrance than a help.

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Post #: 21
RE: trenches - 4/21/2009 2:57:42 PM   
Anthropoid


Posts: 3107
Joined: 2/22/2005
From: Secret Underground Lair
Status: offline 		Given a rested unit _would_ attempt to make its position more defensible, and given that trenches do make a position more defensible, I think that taking away the auto-entrenchment function is not a suitable solution.

Making trenches harder to spot at a distance, and or giving them overhead protection so they are more protected would seem to be the best solution if that is doable from a coding standpoint.

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