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RE: YH v TS - round 3 <no 8 legged creatures>

 
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RE: YH v TS - round 3 <no 8 legged creatures> - 2/25/2009 6:44:06 AM   
TMFoss

 

Posts: 26
Joined: 10/17/2008
Status: offline 		According to YH, a single resource center produces 20 resource points per turn.  Yet in stock, my resource centers produce about 1.2 tons of resources per day per center.  So the fundemental question is- does one resource point equal one ton of supplies or is their a conversion factor?  Our concern does not seem to be if there are enough resources available, but is there enough shipping tonnage to handle this.  AB says that one size 10 port can handle 176,000 points per day, but is that tons?  That would be the equivalent of emptying a 50 ship convoy in one day!  I am usually pretty good with numbers and somehow these don't make sense to me.

(in reply to Andrew Brown)
Post #: 61
RE: YH v TS - round 3 <no 8 legged creatures> - 2/25/2009 6:48:26 AM   
Andrew Brown


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TMFoss

According to YH, a single resource center produces 20 resource points per turn.  Yet in stock, my resource centers produce about 1.2 tons of resources per day per center.  So the fundemental question is- does one resource point equal one ton of supplies or is their a conversion factor?  Our concern does not seem to be if there are enough resources available, but is there enough shipping tonnage to handle this.  AB says that one size 10 port can handle 176,000 points per day, but is that tons?  That would be the equivalent of emptying a 50 ship convoy in one day!  I am usually pretty good with numbers and somehow these don't make sense to me.


Yes one point does roughly correspond to one ton, but there are different types of "tons" when it comes to shipping, so I think I will have to leave a proper answer to this question to the naval team. They should also be able to provide an answer as to how much cargo the world's largest ports in 1941 could handle.

Andrew

(in reply to TMFoss)
Post #: 62
RE: YH v TS - round 3 <no 8 legged creatures> - 2/25/2009 6:54:26 AM   
TMFoss

 

Posts: 26
Joined: 10/17/2008
Status: offline 		Thanks, I will leave this to the naval team. I am aware that GRT and actuall tonnage does vary, but not by orders of magnitude as this seems to do. Anyway, I need to be off to bed soon. Have a good day AB.

-tfoss from one of the new bases on the AE map (don't know what hex yet)

(in reply to Andrew Brown)
Post #: 63
RE: YH v TS - round 3 <no 8 legged creatures> - 2/25/2009 7:00:44 AM   
pad152

 

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Joined: 4/23/2000
Status: offline 		Andrew

Yamato says 90K resources per day, you say 40K-50K per day? If the people involued in the project and playing the game for months can't figure this out or keep it straight, how are we players going to?

I think we (I do) need the dummies guide to the Japanese production & economy.

PS If you ever figure this out, maybe you should write, "The Dummies Guide to Fixing the US Economy" and send it to Washington DC, because no one there seems to have a clue either!


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Post #: 64
RE: YH v TS - round 3 <no 8 legged creatures> - 2/25/2009 7:36:09 AM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pad152

quote:

Right now only 5500 of Kyushus excess resources is reaching Honshu. The remaining 20,000 per day will have to be shipped over. And thats just getting started. That still puts us over 90,000 a day short.


That's gota be per month, not per day! Somebody needs to re-review Japanese production, because even the testers don't understand it!




this means more than 50 of those AKs in the screenshot completely unloading PER DAY??? If you want to have this happening every day how many AKs do you need? 500? 1000? WITP was logistics in the Pacific but if you now even have to ship around resources within Japan I guess this is a bit too much of detail...

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Post #: 65
RE: YH v TS - round 3 <no 8 legged creatures> - 2/25/2009 7:40:20 AM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grotius

quote:

It needs 111,400 resources a day

Then "resources" must be denominated differently in AE, no? In my current stock game as Japan against the AI, the Home Islands (not just Honshu) use about 10-15,000 resources a day as of August 1942. That's an order of magnitude less than the figure you're quoting. Presumably one stock resource is the equivalent of about 10 AE resources?


Each "resource center" in AE (basically the same as a resource center in stock) produces 20 resource points per day. Oil centers produce 10 oil points per day. So this: Produces 3600 per day.




a light industry uses 15 resources per day and heavy industry uses 20 resources and 2 FUEL a day.



this means a resource center produces 20 times more resources than in stock WITP. What does that mean in regards to cargo capacity of AKs? The AKs you´ve posted in the screenshot don´t even hold 2000 tons and are "L" AKs (guess this means "large" ). A large AK in WITP was 7000 tons and you needed a lot of them to ship resources around that a) were only 1/20 of the total now in AE, b) you didn´t need AKs within Japan and c) they were three times bigger than those AKs in the screenshot.

Am confused...



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Post #: 66
RE: YH v TS - round 3 <no 8 legged creatures> - 2/25/2009 8:24:04 AM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline 		It seems to me that what the AE team is doing is trying to satisfy both Brady and the AFBs at the same time. One of the complaints about WITP was that the Japanese had far more shipping than is needed for the game - and yet Brady was complaining that there was a huge amount of Japanese shipping that wasn't even in the game.

So, how do you include the historical ships that were missing from the game without further increasing the excess amount? By making a need for the shipping - as it was IRL.

Bravo!





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fair winds,
Brad

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Post #: 67
RE: YH v TS - round 3 <no 8 legged creatures> - 2/25/2009 9:04:12 AM   
Yamato hugger

 

Posts: 5475
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline 		xAKLs are actually the small ones.




Edit: I think the "L" means "light" or "lighter"

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 68
RE: YH v TS - round 3 <no 8 legged creatures> - 2/25/2009 9:08:16 AM   
Yamato hugger

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pad152

Andrew

Yamato says 90K resources per day, you say 40K-50K per day? If the people involued in the project and playing the game for months can't figure this out or keep it straight, how are we players going to?

I think we (I do) need the dummies guide to the Japanese production & economy.

PS If you ever figure this out, maybe you should write, "The Dummies Guide to Fixing the US Economy" and send it to Washington DC, because no one there seems to have a clue either!




I said you need 90k more a day yes, but I hadnt gotten to Shikoku or Hokkaido yet that was just after Kyushu. Somewhere around 45k sounds about right.

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Post #: 69
RE: YH v TS - round 3 <no 8 legged creatures> - 2/25/2009 10:16:46 AM   
Andrew Brown


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pad152

Andrew

Yamato says 90K resources per day, you say 40K-50K per day? If the people involued in the project and playing the game for months can't figure this out or keep it straight, how are we players going to?


He is counting some of the intra-island transfers as well. I was not. I also stated in my post that the values are still being reviewed and my figure was the result we are aiming for.

Andrew

(in reply to pad152)
Post #: 70
RE: YH v TS - round 3 <no 8 legged creatures> - 2/25/2009 10:22:12 AM   
Andrew Brown


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TMFoss

Thanks, I will leave this to the naval team. I am aware that GRT and actuall tonnage does vary, but not by orders of magnitude as this seems to do. Anyway, I need to be off to bed soon. Have a good day AB.

-tfoss from one of the new bases on the AE map (don't know what hex yet)


Just to clarify what I said, the "order of magnitude" does not relate to differences in tonnage types, but to the difference between how much "resources" are required to be shipped to Japan in WitP, as opposed to how much was required in real life. The current game does not adequately represent what was involved in running the Japanese economy.

There are big changes to how the economy operates in AE, which I think will take players a bit of getting used to, and this is one of them. But the playtesters could explain that better than I can. I am still looking forward to the time when I have the spare time to actually play!

Andrew

(in reply to TMFoss)
Post #: 71
RE: YH v TS - round 3 <no 8 legged creatures> - 2/25/2009 1:48:16 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Very cool results.

Question though: I never even thought about this in WITP, but wasn't USS Pennsylvania in dry dock on Dec. 7? I assume dry dock status isn't modeled in AE, or else the Japanese here are using the most-feared-highly-rare air-swimming torpedo. <grin>

I haven't researched her status, but I recall photos of a shattered destroyer sharing the same slip with the BB, both high and dry after the attack.


Dry docks ARE a part of the new repair system (when I get a cripple home, I will put up a screen shot of it) but due to time constraints torpedo attacks dont look at ships in drydock as ineligible targets. Maybe in a patch.


What I figured. It's fine of course. I just thought that on this one, first historical turn the system might know the exact position of each US ship and guide torpedoes away from docks.

I looked at some history after I posted and was not surprised to see that my memory was faulty. The drydock gate was closed that morning, but it was at least partly flooded. The (two) DDs in there with Pennsylvania had capsized, not fallen off the blocks as my mental picture had them. The text reported that Penn. was supposed to have come out of the dock on Dec. 6, but did not. Given that yard-rats don't like to work on Sundays, perhaps they'd flooded down Saturday in expectation of a Monday float out.

I also learned that the attackers expended torpedoes trying to breach the drydock's caisson, whcih I had not known.


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The Moose

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RE: YH v TS - round 3 <no 8 legged creatures> - 2/25/2009 3:02:04 PM   
Chad Harrison


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From: Boise, ID - USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

Just to clarify what I said, the "order of magnitude" does not relate to differences in tonnage types, but to the difference between how much "resources" are required to be shipped to Japan in WitP, as opposed to how much was required in real life. The current game does not adequately represent what was involved in running the Japanese economy.

There are big changes to how the economy operates in AE, which I think will take players a bit of getting used to, and this is one of them. But the playtesters could explain that better than I can. I am still looking forward to the time when I have the spare time to actually play!

Andrew


Thanks for all the posts Andrew. Great to see that things for both sides, in every way, will be closer to reality.

(in reply to Andrew Brown)
Post #: 73
RE: YH v TS - round 3 <no 8 legged creatures> - 2/25/2009 3:57:49 PM   
greg_slith


Posts: 490
Joined: 9/14/2004
Status: offline 		I've got to say the thing that always put me off of playing Japan in the Big Scenario was the production/economy thing. I was/am totally confused by the entire thing. Now AE looks like it's going to be even more challenging. I understand that not forcing Japan to import oil and resources would be totally unhistoric, but jeesh, help a brother out. I sure wish a clear, consise "How To" manual will be included that details how to make the Japanese economy function. I'd love to try and play Japan but with such a time commitment that this game takes I'd go postal if I find that i screwed myself with the economy 6-12 months into the game (both real time and game time).

Sorry for the rant... everything else looks great!!

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Post #: 74
RE: YH v TS - round 3 <no 8 legged creatures> - 2/25/2009 4:07:15 PM   
Dili

 

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quote:

Dry docks ARE a part of the new repair system (when I get a cripple home, I will put up a screen shot of it) but due to time constraints torpedo attacks dont look at ships in drydock as ineligible targets. Maybe in a patch.


I hope that floating drydocks can be sunk, like the one that was at Malta.

(in reply to greg_slith)
Post #: 75
RE: YH v TS - round 3 <no 8 legged creatures> - 2/25/2009 4:44:13 PM   
Grotius


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From: The Imperial Palace.
Status: offline 		Thanks for the explanations, YH and Andrew. I really like the principle here -- put all Japan's shipping on the map, but also include the concomitant RL demands on that shipping. I love the production aspect of playing Japan, so the more detail the better, as far as I'm concerned.

Hope we didn't derail your AAR too much, YH. Looking forward to more installments.

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Post #: 76
RE: YH v TS - round 3 <no 8 legged creatures> - 2/25/2009 5:39:59 PM   
pad152

 

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Joined: 4/23/2000
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown


quote:

ORIGINAL: pad152

Andrew

Yamato says 90K resources per day, you say 40K-50K per day? If the people involued in the project and playing the game for months can't figure this out or keep it straight, how are we players going to?


He is counting some of the intra-island transfers as well. I was not. I also stated in my post that the values are still being reviewed and my figure was the result we are aiming for.

Andrew



Does anyone know what these numbers look like in 1943 or 1944?

Has anyone even tried to move 90K of resources into Honshu per day for a complete month (2.73 million resources), is it even possible?

Can Japan even afford to expand any factories? I hope there is an undo button for any factory changes, so that players can change a factory, see the results on the net change on resources, HI, supplies, oil, etc., then change it back if they don't like the effect on resources or go over budget.

I also hope there is a better way to expand a factory than to just to double it, ability to change a factory by the number of airframes, engines, etc.


< Message edited by pad152 -- 2/25/2009 5:59:14 PM >

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Post #: 77
RE: YH v TS - round 3 <no 8 legged creatures> - 2/25/2009 7:46:35 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Grotius

Hope we didn't derail your AAR too much, YH. Looking forward to more installments.


Treespider is out of town until tomorrow, so I am taking my time and going through the Jap inventory 1 at a time. Im not done with that yet

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RE: YH v TS - round 3 <no 8 legged creatures> - 2/25/2009 7:56:11 PM   
John Lansford

 

Posts: 2662
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Status: offline 		Going back to that screen shot on the Pearl Harbor attack, how did you manage to get 73 torpedo hits?  I thought there were fewer than 40 planes carrying torpedoes in the real attack, and you only had 144 Kates and some were supposed to be horizontal bombers.

(in reply to Yamato hugger)
Post #: 79
RE: YH v TS - round 3 <no 8 legged creatures> - 2/25/2009 8:02:16 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

Posts: 5475
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Status: offline 		Thats one of the reasons why we do testing. So we can see potential problems like this and look at the code and see if something is amiss or if it was just dumb luck.

But as far as numbers of "special torpedoes", that part isnt specifically modeled into it. Chances of a Kate carrying a bomb or a torpedo is random not hard coded. This particular day they all carried torpedoes. This isnt going to change. Its random.

If the KB went home, reloaded, and went back to Pearl and attacked again, they would also carry torpedoes in that attack. The game isnt that detailed that the depth of the water in every port on the map is modeled and isnt likely to ever be.

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RE: YH v TS - round 3 <no 8 legged creatures> - 2/25/2009 9:16:17 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pad152

Does anyone know what these numbers look like in 1943 or 1944?

Has anyone even tried to move 90K of resources into Honshu per day for a complete month (2.73 million resources), is it even possible?

Can Japan even afford to expand any factories? I hope there is an undo button for any factory changes, so that players can change a factory, see the results on the net change on resources, HI, supplies, oil, etc., then change it back if they don't like the effect on resources or go over budget.

I also hope there is a better way to expand a factory than to just to double it, ability to change a factory by the number of airframes, engines, etc.



There have been several AI v AI games run into '46. I have never played the AI past Dec 9th so I cant answer what it looks like in 43-44. In fact I have only gotten stock into 44 once

As far as it being possible, I would think it wouldnt be a problem. I did a quick spot check and there are 169 ships in the Jap "at start" forces that are 6142t or larger and figuring an average of 6500t for these 169 ships that would net you close to 1.1 million tons just in the big ones alone and you can see from the attached pic that it isnt even close to all of the available AKs at start.

As for the specific factory operations, I will be getting into that in a few hours.




This list is sorted by capacity and looking at the slider bars position and knowing that where it is now is about 175 ships I would estimate the Japs have around 1500 AKs. This is JUST AKs, doesnt count the TKs, AOs, APs, ect.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Yamato hugger -- 2/25/2009 10:01:34 PM >

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RE: YH v TS - round 3 <no 8 legged creatures> - 2/25/2009 9:33:20 PM   
Caesaren

 

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quote:

Going back to that screen shot on the Pearl Harbor attack, how did you manage to get 73 torpedo hits?  I thought there were fewer than 40 planes carrying torpedoes in the real attack, and you only had 144 Kates and some were supposed to be horizontal bombers.


Yes, we want a realistic game, but (sorry John) do we really need all of the game full realistic? When yes, when we want to play the 2nd worldwar like the real 2nd worldwar, then it will be better to read a history book.
Just after the gameplay will start, the game and the real will be even more different.

--please excuse my bad english--

(in reply to Yamato hugger)
Post #: 82
RE: YH v TS - round 3 <no 8 legged creatures> - 2/25/2009 10:34:14 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

Posts: 5475
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline 		Some interesting things in the air units I am finding as far as upgrades. We are playing PDUs on this game (most of the testing to date has been with them off) and some of the units (not all, mainly detachments from what I have seen) can make some nice upgrades. Like I saw a Jake group that upgrades to Zeros, and a Babs that can upgrade to Tojos.

Some of the detachments are because of mixed types in the parent group at the beginning of the war and the 13th Sentai for example parent is Nates and the detachment is Babs. So the detachment can upgrade to anything that a Babs can upgrade to and also everything that the parent can upgrade to. Once you upgrade it from 1 type to another (the Babs to Nate for example) it cant go back to being a recon squadron. So make sure you really want to do these upgrades before you do them.

However, 1 standard upgrade to Jap float planes seems to be to the float Zero (Rufe).

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Post #: 83
RE: YH v TS - round 3 <no 8 legged creatures> - 2/25/2009 10:42:43 PM   
Q-Ball


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From: Chicago, Illinois
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

Some interesting things in the air units I am finding as far as upgrades. We are playing PDUs on this game (most of the testing to date has been with them off) and some of the units (not all, mainly detachments from what I have seen) can make some nice upgrades. Like I saw a Jake group that upgrades to Zeros, and a Babs that can upgrade to Tojos.

Some of the detachments are because of mixed types in the parent group at the beginning of the war and the 13th Sentai for example parent is Nates and the detachment is Babs. So the detachment can upgrade to anything that a Babs can upgrade to and also everything that the parent can upgrade to. Once you upgrade it from 1 type to another (the Babs to Nate for example) it cant go back to being a recon squadron. So make sure you really want to do these upgrades before you do them.

However, 1 standard upgrade to Jap float planes seems to be to the float Zero (Rufe).



That is interesting, but wouldn't the pilots be trained for the wrong skills? Wouldn't the former-Bab, now Nate pilots be real good at Recon, not so hot at dogfighting? Or how does that work?

Just curious, as I understand pilots are not "generic" in AE.

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Post #: 84
RE: YH v TS - round 3 <no 8 legged creatures> - 2/25/2009 10:54:16 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

That is interesting, but wouldn't the pilots be trained for the wrong skills? Wouldn't the former-Bab, now Nate pilots be real good at Recon, not so hot at dogfighting? Or how does that work?

Just curious, as I understand pilots are not "generic" in AE.


Well in this case, it appears they were fighter pilots BEFORE they got their Babs. Here is the "Babs" equipped detachment:




Highest recon in the squadron is 49. But look at them air to air skills.

Attachment (1)

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RE: YH v TS - round 3 <no 8 legged creatures> - 2/25/2009 11:35:35 PM   
Barb


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From: Bratislava, Slovakia
Status: offline 		Actually:
In november 1941 Japans total shipping amounted to 6,720,000 grt of ships over 100 tons. Servicable were 5,980,000 grt including 360,000 grt of tankers

of these 3 milions grt of shipping was reserved for nonmilitary use.
Army get 2,100,000grt until end of march, then figures were lowered each month to reach 1 milion grt at july.
Navy got 1,800,000grt each month (270,000 grt of tankers included)


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Post #: 86
RE: YH v TS - round 3 <no 8 legged creatures> - 2/25/2009 11:37:59 PM   
Ron Saueracker


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From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline 		Still can't get my head around an 86 air to air exp level with no air to air kills, perhaps even combat. C'mon guys, he is 14 % away from friggin perfect!!! Can't anyone tone down the experience levels for a change? Like, if this guys rating is 86, what would hmmmmm Marseille's, Galland's, or Hartmann's be? 200, 300, 400, 1000? Tone down the skill percentile please, otherwise there is no point to them.

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Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

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Post #: 87
RE: YH v TS - round 3 <no 8 legged creatures> - 2/25/2009 11:43:12 PM   
Dili

 

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Status: offline 		Maybe he made kills against Chinese. But yeah 86 seems too much.

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RE: YH v TS - round 3 <no 8 legged creatures> - 2/25/2009 11:55:33 PM   
Mistmatz

 

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Status: offline 		Quite an impressive list of AKs. Is there a possibility to avoid the AI controlled convoy system and use the waypoint system or any other semiautomatic method to establish trade routes and ease required player interaction?
Like pick up resources from point A unload at point B and eventually avoid subs by using waypoint C and D.


(in reply to Yamato hugger)
Post #: 89
RE: YH v TS - round 3 <no 8 legged creatures> - 2/26/2009 12:07:20 AM   
Yamato hugger

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mistmatz

Quite an impressive list of AKs. Is there a possibility to avoid the AI controlled convoy system and use the waypoint system or any other semiautomatic method to establish trade routes and ease required player interaction?
Like pick up resources from point A unload at point B and eventually avoid subs by using waypoint C and D.



Yes.

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