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things I don't quite understand - 2/22/2009 4:03:38 PM

henri51

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Joined: 1/16/2009
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I am playing the WaW Beta c scenario, and there are a few things about the game (or is it the scenario?) that I don't quite understand.

One is the naval transfer of supplies and units. I have read on this forum that supplies can be transmitted from a HQ across the water (from Rome to Africa say) or even to ships at sea, at the cost of some losses. But I cannot do it, although I don't see any enemy fleets in the Med. When I try it says that I don't have any land path or naval path. So units in Africa apparently cannot get any supplies from Italy unless they send them by ship or unless it is done automatically (the African HQs are under the Rome HQ which is under OKW).I have finally built a port near Tobruk, but it is too early to tell whether or not this will change anything - it is supposed to reduce the penalty for transmitting supplies over water (which I can't do).

Air power has been beefed up over naval units, but in a single attack, an AI squad of 4 divebombers and five fighters wiped out the whole German surface fleet of a half-dozen battleships and cruisers North of Germany in a single attack without losing a single plane.Isn't this a bit much?

On the other side, when my about 30 subs in 3 wolfpacks attacked a huge British fleet that probably were green replacements for the original lost British fleet, the subs sank every one of the 30 or so battleships, cruisers and aircraft carriers and lost only 2 subs.Was this because my subs were experienced and the AI sent out a green fleet before they had time to ripen a bit? Maybe the AI sent them out unsupplied? It also seems like a bit much.

It seem that UNITS cannot be transferred to African HQs from the Rome HQ, so I have to send them by ship. OK, but soon after leaving Rome, my cargo ships carrying Rommel's armor runs out of supplies and has to move one hex at a time the rest of the way; it is November 1943,and Rommel is still stuck in the middle of the Mediterranean moving one hex each month,hoping to arrive before the war ends. Do I have to load up cargo ships with supplies when I use them to carry units?

Finally, I still have difficulty figuring out supplies - I am producing over 25,000 supplies per turn (much more than the supply screen says is going to be requested), but I still don't have any free supplies and some units are sometime low on supplies.It is unclear to me where the supplies are going. OK, some goes to fleets (can 30 subs require so much supplies?), and some to upgrade units, but... This supply information is too unclear and in a new version should be made MUCH clearer. Is it so difficult to just put the total number of supplies used on the previous turn and the number that will be produced? Which is all I need to know, essentially. With the present numbers, I can tell that I produced say 25,000, that my units are going to request 2500, and that my free supplies have not increased...

In case you are wondering, this version of the scenario is somewhat more difficult than previous versions. Among other things,the important Soviet cities have garrisons, and I took serious damage taking some of them.It also doesn't help that I misunderstood the conditions for the Soviet declaration of war (I thought it was the opposite), and the Soviets declared war in January 1941 while I was busy in Greece and had only four units on the Russian front.I managed to hold on while I hurriedly moved some units out of Greece to the Eastern Front. But I forgot about Finland off the top of the map and the first thing I knew, the Soviets had taken Helsinki, again because I could send no supplies nor units from Germany! I did manage to take Leningrad and Sevastopol on my last move in December 1942, but I am taking heavy casualties and the Americans have showed up with a huge fleet on the coast of England, where my subs were running free (they destroyed 4000 supply points on the previous move) since wiping out the British fleet earlier.

Whaddahell are the Americans doing in the Atlantic in 1942 with a bigger fleet than they ever had in the pacific in WW2? They certainly should not have the resources to have fleets with more than a half-dozen carriers in a 30+ unit fleet in both the Atlantic and Pacific (where I presume they are fighting Japan), should they? Of course I can't tell what is going on with the Japanese due to fog of war, but Pearl Harbor should have focused America's naval attention on the pacific until 1944 except for lend-Lease and maybe invading Africa. Historically, the US had only one carrier in the Atlantic, and they moved that to the Pacific after Pearl Harbor, and I don't recall that they had any battleships in the Atlantic early on or even later. True, the Germans didn't have the sub power that I gave them, but OTOH I didn't build any carriers or battleships for Germany...

Henri the confused

Post #: 1

RE: things I don't quite understand - 2/22/2009 5:12:12 PM

82ndtrooper

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well for the supplies I think you may be doing something wrong.

to move supplies over water your HQ has to be on a coast and has to have cargo ships in it for navalcap. Just like you need trucks or horses or trains for landcap.

no cargo ships = no naval cap.
not on coast = no transfer.

HQ on coast with cargo ships� and your other fleet in a city or port on coast and you can transfer to them.
some ships wont except a transfer i think but if you have done that the supplies will get there automatically.

you can also transfer troops and equipment this way from HQ to HQ or HQ to units.

hope this helps you

is this the explorer2's beta version you are playing ?

< Message edited by 82ndtrooper -- 2/22/2009 5:13:31 PM >

(in reply to henri51)

Post #: 2

RE: things I don't quite understand - 2/22/2009 7:30:29 PM

Joshuatree

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Henri the confused. Right, well from now on you shall carry that name with pride

Yeah the problems you describe here most of us are familiar with, all of us have been there and done that. It *is* at first a bit confusing, after a few games you don't notice it anymore.

Like 82ndtrooper already said, your HQ must be in a coastal city/port and must have cargo ships. But your troops on N- Africa, or whatever coast must have acces to a port too, otherwise they can't receive supply. (No Mulberries in this game-yet). And not only must the expeditionary force have acces to that port, they must be linked to it by a road too.
I don't think it is possible to directly send troops from the Italy HQ to the N-Africa HQ (Rommel if you like) when that N-Africa HQ is not in a port. Say the Rommel HQ is somewhere in the desert supportin the troops, and you decide you want to transfer some troops and tanks to it.... no go. You can only send troops, and whole units, to a coastal city/port. That's why I sometimes create an extra HQ unit with transport capacity in a coastal city so that I can transfer troops from the Supreme HQ, to the coastal HQ and then, the next turn to the HQ in the field. Or you can just strategically transfer a unit via naval capacity to that Coastal city/port. But that has the problem that you can't reinforce your troops on a foreign coast.

I'm not familiar with this version, but an AI group of 4 bombers destroyed your complete naval force?? That's unheard of

Especially the version I play, cruisers are deadly to my bombers... kills them like flies.

Now your cargo ships running out of supply that soon... I wonder, did they have enough supply to start with? Each ship has a max amount of supply it can carry (cargo ship is 200 I think, a BB is 2000 or so). If it was already low on supply, then yes, it limps back home, on hex each turn.

25.000 ain't that much supply sometimes, fleets and the fancy stuff needs a *lot* of supply. And troops gaining readiness too need extra. The screen I always check to see how much supply I need is the general info and statistics screen ---> check the supply screen for the Supreme HQ. See how much you need when you start small, and see the numbers rise.

Half a dozen CV's in a 30 plus naval stack in '42?? Crikey. Who's responsible for this one, haha.

(in reply to 82ndtrooper)

Post #: 3

RE: things I don't quite understand - 2/22/2009 7:56:44 PM

explorer2

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Henri-
Thanks for the feedback. It's very helpful. You can also always email me from in AT or at explorer2extra@gmail.com
I think 82nd gave some good help on supply already. On your other points:

quote:

ORIGINAL: henri51
Air power has been beefed up over naval units, but in a single attack, an AI squad of 4 divebombers and five fighters wiped out the whole German surface fleet of a half-dozen battleships and cruisers North of Germany in a single attack without losing a single plane.Isn't this a bit much?

Perhaps. Still working on values here, which is why it's still beta. But do remember that Level 1 ships represented World War I vintage. In other tests, I have had the opposite effect: 4CarrierAir, 5 fighters having no effect on a fleet with cruisers. WHat's a fluke and what's a norm I don't think we know for sure yet. THanks for the report - gathering different tests is helpful for getting the values good.

quote:

On the other side, when my about 30 subs in 3 wolfpacks attacked a huge British fleet that probably were green replacements for the original lost British fleet, the subs sank every one of the 30 or so battleships, cruisers and aircraft carriers and lost only 2 subs.Was this because my subs were experienced and the AI sent out a green fleet before they had time to ripen a bit? Maybe the AI sent them out unsupplied? It also seems like a bit much

Sub level 2 or above, with experience should IMHO chew up level 1 fleets or anything without supply/experience. 30 subs in game represents 300 subs in life. If the British fleet had no destroyer escorts, can you imagine what that would have been like against 300 experienced Level 2 U-Boats? Have mercy!

quote:

It seem that UNITS cannot be transferred to African HQs from the Rome HQ, so I have to send them by ship. OK, but soon after leaving Rome, my cargo ships carrying Rommel's armor runs out of supplies and has to move one hex at a time the rest of the way; it is November 1943,and Rommel is still stuck in the middle of the Mediterranean moving one hex each month,hoping to arrive before the war ends. Do I have to load up cargo ships with supplies when I use them to carry units?

1. If you have cargo ships in HQ's in ports, you should be able to transfer without using them like landing craft. I haven't had any problems with that.
2. When using Cargo ships to transport units, yes you better check how much supply they have in the unit stat screen. They can carry 12 turns worth of supply, so should be able to move 60 total hexes without running out of supply, more than enough to get all the way across the Pacific.

quote:

Finally, I still have difficulty figuring out supplies - I am producing over 25,000 supplies per turn (much more than the supply screen says is going to be requested), but I still don't have any free supplies and some units are sometime low on supplies.It is unclear to me where the supplies are going. OK, some goes to fleets (can 30 subs require so much supplies?), and some to upgrade units, but... This supply information is too unclear and in a new version should be made MUCH clearer.

I agree - it's not easy to figure out supply needs in AT. One of the biggest things that helped me was realizing that the supply numbers indicated are what was requested at the BEGINNING of the turn, prior to production and prior to any movement, combat, production I plan to enter next turn, transfers this turn, etc... I try to always pad that number by 20%, more depending on how much I'm producing, and in winter by as much as 50%. Wish it were far easier, hopefully Vic can give us a little help on that next version.

quote:

Whaddahell are the Americans doing in the Atlantic in 1942 with a bigger fleet than they ever had in the pacific in WW2?

Units coming in that are in the game , as opposed to built, are historically accurate. Check out http://niehorster.orbat.com/index.htm for great info. IN WaW Revised, as I posted earlier, real world to Game world ratio: 1BB:1BB, 2CA(light-anti-air):1CA, 1CV(fleet- not escort):1CV, 10DD:1DD 10SS:1SS.
Real World Battle cruisers and Heavy Cruisers are counted as BBs. US had big fleet in Atlantic, it was just very old. It also sounds like AI produced several extra. And just checking, is your AI set to regular, or AI+ or AI++? In my tests with AI, I also seem to notice that AI's hulls seem to produce far quicker than human hulls. That's not conclusive data, just my observation so far.
And you're absolutely right that the US fleet was in the Pacific, BUT, the Atlantic fleet moved there after Pearl. Poor AI just isn't smart enough I'm afraid to make that leap. If I get really ambitious (doubtful) I could craeate a separate version for the AI, and have the Atlantic fleet moved to the Pacific in mid-42.

< Message edited by explorer2 -- 2/22/2009 8:00:18 PM >

(in reply to henri51)

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RE: things I don't quite understand - 2/22/2009 8:45:37 PM

Twotribes

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I have noticed with the new version of the game that units aboard cargo vessels eat the supply of the cargo vessels, the bigger the transported unit the faster you lose supply. Had a ship with 20 turns supply it sailed one turn and was on the next turn at 12 turns supply, the next turn it was at 6. I had to dock after 3 turns.

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RE: things I don't quite understand - 2/22/2009 8:55:42 PM

henri51

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Thanks for the explanation guys, it clears up SOME of the confusion.

Yes, this is the beta C version, the latest one as far as I know.Explorer said that there is a bug in Poland, but I did not notice it and decided to continue anyway since I had already conquered France.

About sea transfers, lemme see if I got this straight: I can transfer both supplies and units from a HQ (say Rome) is in a seaside city to another HQ that is in a port across water, but I have to have the transport ships to carry them to the sending port, although they actually stay with Rome. Transport ships in the receiving port don't count. Supplies sent this way are of course subject to interception, so not all may make it across the water.

But what about units? Can units transferred this way be intercepted like the ones carried in actual ships?

I understand that supplies and units can also be transferred by strategic movement under the same conditions.

Id there is no port in say Africa, then units and supplies cannot be transferred in the above ways, but supplies can move from a HQ in Rome to a subunit in Africa, with a severe loss penalty. Engineer units can build a port in Africa.

In sum, if you send Rommel to Africa, make sure that you also send an engineer unit to build a port, otherwise no African units will be able to replace losses and will get very little supplies- unless you can reach the Gaza port before you run dry.

BTW, I also has a problem with Copenhagen: I can\t transfer replacements nor supplies there. I DID manage to build a bridge across one of the straits, but not the others. Shouldn't those straits be passable? (there are no blown bridges).

Is this right?

Henri

< Message edited by henri51 -- 2/22/2009 9:01:34 PM >

(in reply to explorer2)

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RE: things I don't quite understand - 2/22/2009 9:03:16 PM

henri51

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

I have noticed with the new version of the game that units aboard cargo vessels eat the supply of the cargo vessels, the bigger the transported unit the faster you lose supply. Had a ship with 20 turns supply it sailed one turn and was on the next turn at 12 turns supply, the next turn it was at 6. I had to dock after 3 turns.

Aha, that is probably it: Rommel has a strong armored unit traveling on one or two cargo ships (I forget how many), so he probably ate all their supplies on the first turn...

Henri

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RE: things I don't quite understand - 2/22/2009 10:31:51 PM

82ndtrooper

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I noticed that problem with building a bridge to copenhagen and forgot to tell explorer2 thanks for reminding me. and yes thats a bug.

as for the rest you have the supply thing figured out now i think

and yes you can transfer units the same as supplies across water if its from port to port.

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RE: things I don't quite understand - 2/23/2009 4:25:48 AM

explorer2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes
I have noticed with the new version of the game that units aboard cargo vessels eat the supply of the cargo vessels, the bigger the transported unit the faster you lose supply. Had a ship with 20 turns supply it sailed one turn and was on the next turn at 12 turns supply, the next turn it was at 6. I had to dock after 3 turns.

This is a really big deal. I haven't in any of my tests actually put units aboard, just tested their movements. I'll have to look into it and find a way to get around/fix that.
Thanks all for catching that problem.

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RE: things I don't quite understand - 2/23/2009 4:41:25 AM

explorer2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: henri51
If there is no port in say Africa, then units and supplies cannot be transferred in the above ways, but supplies can move from a HQ in Rome to a subunit in Africa, with a severe loss penalty. Engineer units can build a port in Africa.

I'm guessing you're still missing something. Every named hex in North Africa is a port except Bardia & Mersa Matruh, which were not ports.
To get the transfers to work, the sending HQ has to be in a port and the receiving HQ has to be in a port.

quote:

BTW, I also has a problem with Copenhagen: I can\t transfer replacements nor supplies there. I DID manage to build a bridge across one of the straits, but not the others. Shouldn't those straits be passable? (there are no blown bridges).

Probably the same type of problem with Copenhagen. Are the units or HQ set to have a superior HQ? If you're trying to transfer anything manually, are there HQ's in Hamburg or Koenigsberg? Copenhagen is definitely a port so that shouldn't be a problem.
Regarding the bridge over the strait: the strait was too big/deep to build one at the time, same with Bosphorus. Bridges were not built over these until the 1970's. You, like in real life, are going to have to do it over the seas. Sorry.

HOpe that helps a little. I know when I was learning this part of AT was very frustrating - if you don't have it set up just right, it doesn't work.

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RE: things I don't quite understand - 2/23/2009 1:33:23 PM

henri51

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quote:

ORIGINAL: explorer2

I'm guessing you're still missing something. Every named hex in North Africa is a port except Bardia & Mersa Matruh, which were not ports.
To get the transfers to work, the sending HQ has to be in a port and the receiving HQ has to be in a port.

Oh, OK, I didn't have a HQ in a coast city in Germany nor in Africa, that must be it. Thanks for the info, but shouldn't ports have an anchor on them to show they are ports? (I don't have the latest version that shows roads as railroads, because I would have had to restart the scenario, could that be it?)

BTW, playing at normal with no bonuses on Beta C of WaW, despite my mistakes I have taken Leningrad, Moscow and the Caucasus.But Rommel was sunk by a 5/5 Allied air unit on Crete, who also sank all the Afrika Korps infantry

.And the Americans are in Egypt (they must have come through the Suez Canal).

Given the strength of air power over ships, that Allied air on Crete is going to be tough to dislodge, cause any fleet that approaches within 5 hexes or so is immediately sent to the bottom.

Henri

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RE: things I don't quite understand - 2/23/2009 5:17:36 PM

82ndtrooper

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build some carrier Air units and attack crete with them till that air unit is gone.

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RE: things I don't quite understand - 2/23/2009 5:51:18 PM

henri51

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 82ndtrooper

build some carrier Air units and attack crete with them till that air unit is gone.

Thanks what I actually did was get 6 hexes away with a surface fleet, tand on the next move moved in and shore bombarded them to hell before they had time to react (they had no ground units).

I created a OKH HQ in Smolensk to reduce the HQ distance to my units moving East, but I can't get it to be under OKW. I tell it OKW is its HQ, but the screen on the right says it is still without a HQ. Is there a limit to the nmmber of HQs under the main HQ? (I know you can only go four deep, but this would be directly under the main HQ to which all HQs are subunits 1 to 3 levels deep.

Henri

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RE: things I don't quite understand - 2/23/2009 11:38:46 PM

82ndtrooper

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hmm i dont know bro

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RE: things I don't quite understand - 2/24/2009 1:38:56 PM

henri51

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quote:

ORIGINAL: henri51

quote:

ORIGINAL: 82ndtrooper

build some carrier Air units and attack crete with them till that air unit is gone.

Thanks what I actually did was get 6 hexes away with a surface fleet, tand on the next move moved in and shore bombarded them to hell before they had time to react (they had no ground units).

I created a OKH HQ in Smolensk to reduce the HQ distance to my units moving East, but I can't get it to be under OKW. I tell it OKW is its HQ, but the screen on the right says it is still without a HQ. Is there a limit to the nmmber of HQs under the main HQ? (I know you can only go four deep, but this would be directly under the main HQ to which all HQs are subunits 1 to 3 levels deep.

Henri

It must be a display bug, because although the screen on the right says that OKH doesn't have a HQ, the OOB says it is under OKW, and apparently my units in the Urals are getting their supplies.

And BTW, the most useful info on supplies appears under the OOB tab, which is a strange place...

As far as I can tell, it is the only place that shows I am using more than 25,000 supplies per turn.

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RE: things I don't quite understand - 3/2/2009 12:42:40 PM

timberwolf15

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I Think key is Makeshift Ports.. was this already mentioned ... sorry if it was....

Did you build the makeshift ports with your engineers ... It seems to me you have to have a makeshift port built by your engineer on the mainland and then wherever you land your units in enemyterritory have your engineer build a makeshift port there too... between the two lands that you want supplies between. Once to I owned a Major supply base on an island but did not get full supply out of it until I built a makeshift port with an engineer unit on this island .... I already had one built on my mainland. Then when I did a landing the troops did not get supplied until I built a makeshift port where they landed at ... As I moved inland I had the engineer that built the makeshift port start putting down the roads. Pressing the supply overlay key showed the green areas out from the port and then the road(s) I build from the port. I also had NO HQ's at all with these troops there HQ was my only HQ on the map.. eventually I gave them an HQ though. I also had a few cargo ships cause I used these to move the troops to enemy territory .. I tweaked .. edited a Randon Scenario in order to figure out how this stuff works with the supplies..

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RE: things I don't quite understand - 3/3/2009 4:39:07 AM

Mike Dubost

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quote:

ORIGINAL: henri51
And BTW, the most useful info on supplies appears under the OOB tab, which is a strange place...As far as I can tell, it is the only place that shows I am using more than 25,000 supplies per turn.

Actually, I have found that there are 2 places with very useful information on supplies. As you have found out, the OOB screen lists projected supply demand for the highest level HQs.

If you want to see more details on the last turn's usage, you can find it under the production summary. I found this by accident when looking to see what my builds were in a huge random scenario with many large cities. If you select a city and choose the production overview button, you can filter by HQ (the box shows all HQs as one option, and then lists each HQ receiving production). One of the first lines is last turn's supply request. This let's you see which HQs are using the most supply. I use it when I have a random scenario where I have split my HQs into independent supply groups (I like "island campaigns" on large maps, so I often have areas out of reach other HQs).

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RE: things I don't quite understand - 3/3/2009 4:44:25 AM

explorer2

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You probably already know this, but while we're talking about supply - in my testing of Soviet winters, I find that it's pretty normal to use double the amount of supply in winter, and once I saw it needing triple the amount of supply used in non-winter turns!� And remember if you get below 100% supply (when asking for 100%) to get back up to 100% costs more than just the difference between what it normally requests and the amount lacking.� �

(in reply to Mike Dubost)

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RE: things I don't quite understand - 3/3/2009 7:30:35 PM

Jeffrey H.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Dubost

quote:

ORIGINAL: henri51
And BTW, the most useful info on supplies appears under the OOB tab, which is a strange place...As far as I can tell, it is the only place that shows I am using more than 25,000 supplies per turn.

Actually, I have found that there are 2 places with very useful information on supplies. As you have found out, the OOB screen lists projected supply demand for the highest level HQs.

If you want to see more details on the last turn's usage, you can find it under the production summary. I found this by accident when looking to see what my builds were in a huge random scenario with many large cities. If you select a city and choose the production overview button, you can filter by HQ (the box shows all HQs as one option, and then lists each HQ receiving production). One of the first lines is last turn's supply request. This let's you see which HQs are using the most supply. I use it when I have a random scenario where I have split my HQs into independent supply groups (I like "island campaigns" on large maps, so I often have areas out of reach other HQs).

Is is possible to post a screen shot of what you are describing here Mike ?

_____________________________

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RE: things I don't quite understand - 3/4/2009 4:02:39 AM

Mike Dubost

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffrey H.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Dubost

quote:

ORIGINAL: henri51
And BTW, the most useful info on supplies appears under the OOB tab, which is a strange place...As far as I can tell, it is the only place that shows I am using more than 25,000 supplies per turn.

Actually, I have found that there are 2 places with very useful information on supplies. As you have found out, the OOB screen lists projected supply demand for the highest level HQs.

If you want to see more details on the last turn's usage, you can find it under the production summary. I found this by accident when looking to see what my builds were in a huge random scenario with many large cities. If you select a city and choose the production overview button, you can filter by HQ (the box shows all HQs as one option, and then lists each HQ receiving production). One of the first lines is last turn's supply request. This let's you see which HQs are using the most supply. I use it when I have a random scenario where I have split my HQs into independent supply groups (I like "island campaigns" on large maps, so I often have areas out of reach other HQs).

Is is possible to post a screen shot of what you are describing here Mike ?

OK, let's try this. I selected a city, clicked on the production icon, and selected the "see production overview" button on the bottom of the screen. I then saw a box in the upper right corner listing all my HQs, when I selected my "sheaf" HQ (I named it in imitation of SHAEF to indicate that this HQ was overseeeing my amphib attack), and this is the result. Notice the first lines in the total production (second box from the top on the right-hand side) show the last supply request and current supply production being sent to "sheaf" (yeah, I typo'd the name and didn't see it until later. Since it was just me versus an AI, I decided not to bother correcting it).

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Mike Dubost -- 3/4/2009 4:03:34 AM >

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RE: things I don't quite understand - 3/4/2009 4:18:05 AM

Jeffrey H.

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Ahh got it. Thanks.

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RE: things I don't quite understand - 3/4/2009 1:52:04 PM

Barthheart

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For me, that's the single most useful screen for supply control.

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